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a voice for men antifeminism confused cats against feminism facepalm kitties mansplaining misogyny MRA that's completely wrong

Confused Dudes Confused by Confused Cats Against Feminism

Sweetie Pie Jonus pities the fools.
Sweetie Pie Jonus pities the fools.

Oh dear. Some very confused dudes on the A Voice for Men Forums are angry at the Huffington Post for suggesting that Confused Cats Against Feminism might just be a parody of Women Against Feminism.

A guy calling himself Humansplaining w/ Jarred starts off the thread — titled “HuffPo tries – and fails – to politicize ‘Cats Against Feminism'” — with this little rant. (I’ve bolded some of the especially silly stuff.)

So, being that ‘Women Against Feminism’ is an internet phenomenon, through Tumblr as well as Twitter, the internet inevitably took this thread in the direction it takes EVERYTHING nowadays – cats.

If you read through all the ‘Cats Against Feminism’ memes, you’ll notice that they pretty much all revolve around, well…CATS. Go figure, huh? References to food, tuna, shedding, and biting predominate these posts. The references to ‘Feminism’ are basically incidental, since this is just piggy-backing on the viral success of ‘Women Against Feminism’. Those posting these memes never really express whether they are in favor of, or against Feminism. It’s clearly not meant to appeal to EITHER side of the issue. Rather, it’s simply a silly meme meant to produce a few chuckles for ANYONE that happens to run across them. Just like every other stupid cat meme on the internet, of which there must literally be TRILLIONS.

But HuffPo apparently sees things differently …

You know what? I think those CATS are smarter than the people at Huffpo that produced this article. THEY think that Feminism is a stupid and pointless human concept, and they wish you’d stop talking about it and fighting amongst each other, because they need you to FEED them!
Seriously HuffPo, learn to take a joke, and give the ideology a rest for 5 FUCKING SECONDS already.

Because the cats are laughing at YOU now…

AVFM forum dudes, I hate to break it to you, but the cats aren’t laughing at the Huffington Post. They’re laughing at you.

Maybe I need to start up a new blog: Confused Cats Confused by Confused Cats Against Feminism.

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niall
niall
7 years ago

Sparky. It is estimated the top 1% control 40% of the world wealth. Your point is utterly moot,

Men make up the majority of the legislature, yet look how poorly men are doing in the US in the list I gave above. If the patriarchy is there to serves the needs of men, it’s not doing a very good job now is it?

Women have their reproductive health legislated for to answer your question. Pregnancy is unique. You cannot look at it in an orthodox way, as you would say sperm.

Also, keep in mind that unmarried fathers have little or no legal rights to their offspring, yet have the legal repsonsibility to pay for it for those children. The point here, is that a woman has options when pregnant.

1. Abortion.
2.Keep the child
3. Adoption.

A man has none. Not one. He has no choice. I believe that a man should be able to, at some early point in the pregnancy,opt out by signing a waiver perhaps waiving his rights entirely to the child, and with it all responsibility. What I’m saying is that he too should have the option of surrendering his parental rights, just like a woman does when she chooses adoption.

Which genders body is used to sell products? Oh FFS, sparky, Both genders. Have you not heard of the music industry, or Hollywood, averds for aftershave etc etc

Come off it. If you seriously think that any of what you, or anyone else so far has listed, is comparable to the widescale issues facing men across all of US society, you’re out of your mind.

weirwoodtreehugger
7 years ago

Niall,
If you’re going to spout assfax, you shouldn’t keep providing citations that refute them.

Sexual coercion is a pervasive problem but rarely examined in men. This study examined sexual coercion and psychosocial correlates among 284 diverse adolescent and emerging adult males in high school and college. Over 4 in 10 participants (43%) experienced sexual coercion

Four out of ten. Not four out of five. Since you are claiming men have it worse than women in the US, you need to find a similar citation with the rates of sexual coercion that female students experience. You claim to have a social science degree. If that’s true you should no better than to just post stats for one group and not the other if you’re going to make a comparison.

And yes, patriarchy can explain it. Men are assumed in patriarchal gender roles to be too strong to be victimized by women and are assumed to always be up for sex with any woman who wants it.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
7 years ago

OK, place your bets for today’s sock hunt here. I’m tentatively calling Pell.

emilygoddess - MOD
emilygoddess - MOD
7 years ago

I’m thinking Pell too (IP address is original, but we all know how much that means)

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
7 years ago

Women have their reproductive health legislated for to answer your question. Pregnancy is unique. You cannot look at it in an orthodox way, as you would say sperm.

This may be the ur-MRA comment. It’s comically biased, the grammar and sentence structure are as terrible as the logic, and it makes no sense.

Let us all look at sperm in an orthodox way, children, for therein lies the truth and the light. And possibly a whole lot of acid.

bunnybunny
bunnybunny
7 years ago

Niall, can you slow down? I think I have bingo but I should probably let everyone else catch up to the thirty MRA tropes you’ve rattled off in the course of two comments.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
7 years ago

I took a philosophy course on Justice once. I’m a lawyer, judge, politician, religious scholar, and who knows what else all in one.

@Niall:

The sample size was admittedly limited, which is pretty apparent when a lot of the data consisted of 100% of the responses within certain racial groups going the same way.

More importantly, the study did not analyze the female responses, so we don’t have a baseline to compare the male results to. This is important because we want to look at causes. Are young men in particular being subjected to sexual coercion, or are young people just generally coercive? I don’t know the stats for men being coercive towards women, or men towards men or women towards women, and the study doesn’t provide them, so you have no basis for knowing if those numbers are large or small, or why those numbers are the way they are.

You claim that study on man-on-woman sexual abuse is in its infancy. I strongly deny this. You know how people get rates of sexual abuse for women? By looking at sexual abuse in general, and then looking at how those stats break down across gender lines. What they don’t do (initially, anyway) is perform a study where only women’s responses are analyzed.

fromafar2013
7 years ago

@ Niall

Which genders body is used to sell products? Oh FFS, sparky, Both genders. Have you not heard of the music industry, or Hollywood, averds for aftershave etc etc

ORLY

Sexy Car Ads

Sexy Food Ads

Sexy Clothes Ads

Sexy Movie Ads

I could keep going…

Shiraz
Shiraz
7 years ago

Me too, cassandra — there’s a good chance he’s Pell.

Bina
Bina
7 years ago

@Bina. It may be upsetting for you than one loud shouting minority (mra) is currently unsettling another loud shouting minority (feminism). But I welcome it.

The fear for pseudo feminists, but not true feminists, is the inevitability of a mens movement becoming truly mainstream, and eventually carrying political clout as a result. That too is inevitable. It’s just a question of time.

What is this word salad? Your lettuce is wilted, and your cheese is moldy. Do you expect me to eat this? Because the only part of me that this is “upsetting”, as you self-servingly claim, is my digestive system. Waiter, take this crap away!

And yeah, try and convince me that you’re not one of the loud and shouting very minuscule minority that is antifeminism and the MRBM. You’ve already demonstrated that you lack humor and reading comprehension both. I’ll bet that next, you’ll be spouting the same old talking points that have already been debunked a thousand times here, along with some dodgy and fudged statistics from the usual suspects…

>looks quickly at other pages in this thread, nods sagely<

See, I knew it…you went and did. You seriously think that repetition of a Big Lie will miraculously turn it into the truth? You've been eating baloney sandwiches made by Karl Rove again, haven't you. Bleah, another thing that's bad for the digestion.

Now kindly hop back up on your turnip truck and skedaddle.

Save The Queen
Save The Queen
7 years ago

@Niall

“If the patriarchy is there to serves the needs of men, it’s not doing a very good job now is it?”

Patriarchy isn;t about serving the needs of all men. it’s about serving the needs of a specific group of men – wealthy, and in modern times to some extent, middle-class men. You can’t make any serious critical analysis about society if you don’t consider class (or race, ethnicity, age, and a slew of other factors I’m too lazy to list right now).

Intersectionality, go learn about it..

weirwoodtreehugger
7 years ago

Men make up the majority of the legislature, yet look how poorly men are doing in the US in the list I gave above. If the patriarchy is there to serves the needs of men, it’s not doing a very good job now is it?

Why are MRAs so shit at intersectionalism?* Misogyny is not the only axis of oppression. Classism, racism, homophobia, transphobia, ableism etc. all exist. That some men fare better than others in any given culture is not evidence against patriarchy.

* Just kidding. I know why. Because they’re misogynists and don’t give two shits about social justice.

Ally S
7 years ago

Research on women on men sexual abuse is in its infancy, but it is disturbing, and I don’t think can be explained by any patriarchy theory. Do you?

Yes, it can. You would see why if tyou knew shit about “patriarchy theory” in the first place.

niall
niall
7 years ago

Well, Jesus, fromafar. You’re right. advertisers selling products is a form of state and legal oppression. ffs….

niall
niall
7 years ago

Explain it then Ally.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
7 years ago

Which genders body is used to sell products? Oh FFS, sparky, Both genders. Have you not heard of the music industry, or Hollywood, averds for aftershave etc etc

You mean those adverts where a bunch of disembodied female hands (you can tell because nail polish) are rubbing down a dude that just used aftershave? Yeah, totally the dude that is the selling point.

Also, keep in mind that unmarried fathers have little or no legal rights to their offspring, yet have the legal repsonsibility to pay for it for those children. The point here, is that a woman has options when pregnant.

(snip)

A woman has two choices during pregnancy. Abortion, or carrying to term. Adoption is up to either parent, a woman cannot put a child up for adoption unilaterally unless she is a single mother. Men who become pregnant have the same two choices. After a child is born, there is a child to care for, so options all around are limited.

Men make up the majority of the legislature, …

Women have their reproductive health legislated for to answer your question.

Hum. Isn’t it odd that a majority of men legislate the reproductive health of women. Must be misandry.

Also, keep in mind that unmarried fathers have little or no legal rights to their offspring, yet have the legal repsonsibility to pay for it for those children.

Take a look here. For unmarried parents, the law gives the child to the person who they know is related to the child. Ie, the mother. That mother has responsibilities for caring and raising the child. A father must establish paternity, and in doing so also gains rights and responsibilities towards the child. I fail to see what aspect of this process is unfair.

I believe that a man should be able to, at some early point in the pregnancy,opt out by signing a waiver perhaps waiving his rights entirely to the child, and with it all responsibility. What I’m saying is that he too should have the option of surrendering his parental rights, just like a woman does when she chooses adoption.

Again, mothers can’t opt for adoption unless they are the only known parent. After a child exists, parents have a responsibility towards them. What you’re asking is for a “get-out-of-care-free” card (only for men), while completely ignoring the child’s rights to care.

You cannot look at it in an orthodox way, as you would say sperm.

I know you only are talking about cis folks, so with that in mind, you think a male-only thing is orthodox while a women-only thing is unorthodox? The mind boggles.

Come off it. If you seriously think that any of what you, or anyone else so far has listed, is comparable to the widescale issues facing men across all of US society, you’re out of your mind.

Again with the foot-stamping. You keep mentioning these terrible, incomparable, wide-scale issues affecting men, but never demonstrate them. For a person who identifies as neither feminist or MRA, you sure do regurgitate the talking points of only one side with great regularity.

</gallop>

bunnybunny
bunnybunny
7 years ago

Dude you’ve clearly dedicated loads of time to memorizing and regurgitating MRA talking points and yet reading about patriarchy is too hard for you? Cry me a river.

VPumpkins
VPumpkins
7 years ago

That’s right, naill. Avoid the hard questions and ignore your obvious errors. That’ll throw everyone off.

katz
7 years ago

Well, Jesus, fromafar. You’re right. advertisers selling products is a form of state and legal oppression. ffs….

Dude, you said this:

Which genders body is used to sell products? Oh FFS, sparky, Both genders. Have you not heard of the music industry, or Hollywood, averds for aftershave etc etc

We have scroll wheels, you know.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
7 years ago

I vote that we make Niall explain what he thinks radical feminism is before we answer any of his questions.

Ally S
7 years ago

If the patriarchy is there to serves the needs of men, it’s not doing a very good job now is it?

False dichotomy: either patriarchy is solely beneficial for those it positions as its subjects (men) or it doesn’t exist at all. But patriarchy is a system of exploitation of non-men by men, so the imperfect aspects of patriarchy don’t contradict the foundation of oppression that patriarchy rests on.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
7 years ago

@niall:

Well, Jesus, fromafar. You’re right. advertisers selling products is a form of state and legal oppression. ffs….

Don’t blame fromafar for responding to a point you brought up.

fromafar2013
7 years ago

@ niall

Well, Jesus, fromafar. You’re right. advertisers selling products is a form of state and legal oppression. ffs….

Nice goal post shifting there. Why were you trying to make it sound like sexual objectification of men and women is equivalent then? What was your point in even trying to make it seem like adverts were fair and gender balanced?

And do you really not understand the social impact images like that have on consumers? I thought you studied sociology?

So we can add ‘objectification’ to the ever growing list of things you don’t understand.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
7 years ago

@Cassandra:

A little late, but I’ll second that. I’m pretty curious what he’s talking about when he says “radical feminism.”

Ally S
7 years ago

Hell, even capitalism, a political and economic system that serves the interests of the bourgeosie at the expense of the proletariat, isn’t perfect for bourgeosie. After all, with the high status in wealth comes an implicit possibility of losing it, and ubiquitous commodification and consumerism that comes with capitalism can have a negative impact on the quality of life even for rich people. But none of that changes the fact that being rich and having people work for you is a lot more privileged and cozy than constantly working just to survive.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
7 years ago

It’s the Niall Challenge! And hopefully easier for him than “why are 5 and 10 not the same number”.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
7 years ago

@Ally S:

Those at the top also face pressures to try to stay at the top. It’s just silly to think that those pressures make being at the top comparable to being on the bottom.

Ugh… And now I’m reminded of the “pastoral” movement, with rich city dwellers longing for a simpler life of working the fields out in the country, idealizing being poor because they have no idea what that life is actually like.

emilygoddess - MOD
emilygoddess - MOD
7 years ago

You’re right. advertisers selling products is a form of state and legal oppression.

No one said it was, but have fun doing the Goalpost Dance.

Are you ever going to name any radical feminists, or even define the term? Hint: saying “I know what it means” is not the same as demonstrating that you know what it means.

weirwoodtreehugger
7 years ago

Cassandra,

Everyone knows that men math better than women. Your inferior lady brainz just can’t comprehend the truth. That 5 and 10 are the same number. Take the red pill. Wake Up sheeple!

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
7 years ago

If 5 == 10, then 10 == 20, so 5 == 20, so 1 in 5 equals 1 in 20, therefore rape statistics are equal across gender! I’ve cracked the code!

Bina
Bina
7 years ago

Also, keep in mind that unmarried fathers have little or no legal rights to their offspring, yet have the legal repsonsibility to pay for it for those children. The point here, is that a woman has options when pregnant.

1. Abortion.
2.Keep the child
3. Adoption.

A man has none. Not one. He has no choice.

Bullshit. He has not three, but FOUR choices:

1. Wear a condom.
2. Get a vasectomy.
3. Don’t have sex, and
4. Ignore all the above, and just bugger off if she turns up pregnant.

You have more choices about pregnancy than we do, Niall, you fucking dolt.

Fibinachi
7 years ago

Curiously, option 1a never comes up.

1A:
Talk with this now pregnant person, figure out what your options are going forward. Say you want an abortion. Take it from there.

But no, every sexual encounter has 100% chance of pregnancy, happens between complete strangers, and no one ever speaks one word ever again except “I do” when asked if they agree with the 3556 page Consent Contract.

niall
niall
7 years ago

Would you say that to a woman that wanted an abortion, Bina? I was after all talking about unwanted pregnancy.

pallygirl
pallygirl
7 years ago

I had a look at the paper. I’m raising some issues that anyone with a social science degree, and boasts about how that makes them a social science expert, should fucking realise.

They modified the scale they used in their research, without showing how the modification would affect the results. They added questions, and it is not clear whether the questions were based on previous research that recommended they be added and provided suggested wording, or even whether the researchers tested the questions and response categories before adding them. It is not clear whether the added questions were placed at the end of the scale, or at various locations inside the scale. The latter situation means that the placement of these new questions may have altered the responses the researchers received to the original scale questions.

Subjects were self-selected into the study, and they would have been given some information about the study. It is not valid to use a self-selected sample to generalise about rates of anything, because the self-selection introduces a bias into the sample. It is likely that subjects who were most interested in sexual coercion were the ones most likely to self-select, and therefore we can hypothesize that the percentages of sexual coercion found in this study do not extrapolate to the general college/high school student population.

There’s some elements in the questionnaire that make me wonder about whether the data was collected objectively. In table 1, p.6, the first line relates to verbal pressure and the definition of this measure is given as “nagging, begging, or other verbal pressure”. The example quote given to illustrate this measure is “A girl wanted me to do oral sex to her. And
begged. But I didn’t do it.” It’s not clear whether this request occurred in the context of consensual sexual activity or not. Why does this matter? Because if you’re having sex with another person/s then requesting a particular activity is in the context of negotiating what is happening in the fun smexy times. And making an explicit request for an activity found very pleasurable is expected during fun smexy times, because it’s not making the assumption that the partner/s is a mind reader. This is a completely different situation to the “girl” coming up to a guy in a bar and making the same request. There’s also the issue that the definition of this activity plays right into nasty stereotypes that females nag/beg. Context is everything.

tl;dr: I wouldn’t be using this study as the basis for estimating any type of sexual issue prevalence.

I’m also not saying that I condone sexual harassment or violence against anyone, just that we need good studies to assist us get accurate estimates – so we can do something about.

childrenofthebroccoli
childrenofthebroccoli
7 years ago

@Cassandrakitty: yes, my avatar cat is wearing a tie! My sister found a Velcro collar and tie thing at, I think, Pet Supplies Plus, and put it on her cat Penny. She didn’t seem to mind wearing it, but she hates having to sit still for photos, hence her unamused expression.

cloudiah
7 years ago

Hell, even capitalism, a political and economic system that serves the interests of the bourgeosie at the expense of the proletariat, isn’t perfect for bourgeosie. After all, with the high status in wealth comes an implicit possibility of losing it, and ubiquitous commodification and consumerism that comes with capitalism can have a negative impact on the quality of life even for rich people. But none of that changes the fact that being rich and having people work for you is a lot more privileged and cozy than constantly working just to survive.

Any time a business fails, that disproves capitalism.

Also, I’ve been looking into the numbers, and it appears that 4 out of every 3 male students have experienced sexual coercion.

(More seriously, we can’t compare the rates/numbers of rape in and out of prison unless the studies are conducted with the same definitions and methodology. They weren’t. In any case, the treatment of inmates in this country is terrible on so many levels. The real answer is to stop throwing so many non-violent offenders into prison, period, but that would help primarily men of color which is why you so rarely hear MRAs talk about that as a solution.)

emilygoddess - MOD
emilygoddess - MOD
7 years ago

Childrenofthebroccoli, your cat looks like a business cat!

Niall, what is radical feminism?. Why won’t you answer and questions asked of you? What are you afraid of?

Ally S
7 years ago

@cloudiah

Capitalism has already been disproved in the US. Just look at the existence of social security and disability benefits. Clearly socialism. All workers have access to the means of production now. The world is going to end.

gilshalos
7 years ago

I’m fairly new, and might have missed this, but if it hasn’t already been done…
(dance, little words, dance!)
I nominate Fibinachi for the post of Poet Laureate of the Mammotheers!
Ze could have a rostrum between the dress shop and the bar, and get a tribute of alcohol and bonbons!

Lea
Lea
7 years ago

Patriarchy does not serve the needs of men, just like racism does not serve the needs of white people and homophobia/heteronormativity does not serve the needs of straight people. Just because they place one group above the other, it does not mean that there is any intended positive effect. Institutionalized bigotry serves to give the the least powerful among the privileged group someone to feel superior to and have control over. They serve as a wedge to keep the disempowered from identifying with each other or working together to fight the status quo. Patriarchy places men and the things associated with masculinity above women and things associated with femininity, but rich is still above poor and white still above non-white. Non-conforming men are punished for not being a man the “right” way because they threaten the patriarchy as much as nonconforming women do.

Lea
Lea
7 years ago

A man has no choice over what a woman does with her body because it is not his body. That is not limiting his rights or being unfair to men. Becoming pregnant does not make a woman’s body belong to a man. Nothing does.

teacat
teacat
7 years ago

The pseudointellectual lacquer melted right off!

Do most MRAs even ever bother to do a 2 minute search on how parental rights work when the parents aren’t married before ranting about how unfair child support is (a word which here means “must be”) for the father?

sparky
sparky
7 years ago

niall is visiting here from Opposite Land, isn’t he? Everything he says is the exact opposite of reality.

Yeah, niall, why can’t you offer any kind of definition of radical feminism? You’ve been asked multiples times by multiple people. You said you knew what radical feminism was, so this shouldn’t be that difficult for you.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
7 years ago

Let’s be kind to niall… He only can communicate in MRA cliches and talking points, he’s having trouble finding one that says anything about radical feminism except that it’s destroying the world.

Catherine von Überwald
Catherine von Überwald
7 years ago

As somebody who was born and still lives in the Balkans, I’m never sure should I laugh or cry when I see this “All of Europe is a human right Utopia with no problems at all so we don’t need ______ (insert as appropriate)” idea.

Also, I find the whole (paraphrased) “patriarchy is not doing a very good job of serving me men. So feminists need to work on making patriarchy better for me men” argument darkly hilarious.

pallygirl
pallygirl
7 years ago

I find the whole “I have a degree in Social Sciences” darkly hilarious. I assume it was from the University of Uranus.

hellkell
hellkell
7 years ago

he real issue many people have with feminism is that not does not address men’s issues

Oh, niall…Mr. “I have a degree in Social Sciences,” all you had to say was that your beef with feminism is that we won’t drop what doing and be your mommy.

Address your own issues.

Octo
Octo
7 years ago

The real issue many people have with feminism is that not does not address men’s issues, or other groupings issues, and is a rather loose collection of ideas and ideologies that feminists themselves cannot agree on more often than not.

So your criticism is that feminists are not in fact jackbooted feminazis marching in lockstep? What??? As for your first “point”, I would say feminism has done a whole lot for men’s issues, by weakening up gender roles and expectations in general. Of course it has also weakened male privileges, but that’s kinda the point, no?

Sparky. It is estimated the top 1% control 40% of the world wealth. Your point is utterly moot,.

“I’m man, yet not part of the 1%, so obviously male privilege doesn’t exist”

deniseeliza
deniseeliza
7 years ago

Research on women on men sexual abuse is in its infancy, but it is disturbing, and I don’t think can be explained by any patriarchy theory. Do you?

Well, sure. Patriarchy asserts that masculinity is required, and masculinity asserts that men have an insatiable need for sex with women. (The supposed benefit for men here is that men get to rape, molest, leer, cat-call, coerce, and cheat on women because that’s “how men are”, or “boys will be boys”, etc.)

A lot of people believe this to be true, at least partially. Happily, this is changing, so men who like to harass women do not get to get away with the bad behavior described above as often. However, since a lot of people believe this to be true, a lot of girls and boys will place that expectation on the boys in their lives.

This is definitely bad for boys, and it is wrong for their peers to pressure them sexually. But the cause is not sexism against men. The cause is the expectation that men and boys be ready for sex with any female at any time. This is an expectation born of toxic masculinity. Which is a feature of patriarchy.

Flying Mouse
Flying Mouse
7 years ago

I’m dredging up stuff from two page back, I know, but I really think niall gave me the perfect rebuttal:

The point is, men and men’s issues are not represented in the first place very often. Yet, men make up the majority of readers on sites. When men begin to demand articles and coverage of issues affecting them, there will be absolutely no option for the news sites to follow suit.

This is just magnificent. It completely ignores my claim (that the article he linked to support his position did no such thing), reiterates his own baseless speculations, and slyly lets me know that he thinks I was too stupid to get his point the first time.

A masterpiece, I say. A masterpiece.

OK, place your bets for today’s sock hunt here. I’m tentatively calling Pell.

Adding another vote for the not-so-good doctor. I’ve only tangled with him once, but it was quite a bit like this.