So apparently I just had a debate with Vox Day?
A couple of days ago, you see, a Twitterer calling himself RedPillPhil suggested I was a bit of a coward for taking on an “easy target” like A Voice for Men rather than taking on the leading intellectual lights of the so-called “Dark Enlightenment” like … Heartiste, and Vox Day … who I actually write about all the time.
My laughter must have carried all the way to, well, wherever Vox Day lives, because Mr. Day soon appeared on Twitter and challenged me to a debate — on women’s right to vote. The very notion of two dudes earnestly debating female suffrage – in 2014, no less – struck me as beyond absurd, so I sent back what I thought was an appropriately dismissive Tweet:
@voxday @RedPillPhil @heartiste Yes, women should have voting rights, because they, like men, are human. I win the debate! The end.Thanks!
— David Futrelle (@DavidFutrelle) July 25, 2014
Apparently Mr. Day saw this tweet as my opening gambit in a debate that was now on, and replied with an attempted gotcha. Against my better judgment, I replied:
@voxday @RedPillPhil @heartiste No. I vote where I live, in the US.. So are you contending that no women live in the countries they vote in?
— David Futrelle (@DavidFutrelle) July 25, 2014
He replied, and I sunk deeper into the quicksand of this ridiculous “debate.”
@voxday @RedPillPhil @heartiste There are a few basic requirements for having the right to vote besides being human but being male isn't one
— David Futrelle (@DavidFutrelle) July 26, 2014
At this point I realized I needed to shut this thing down as quickly as possible. So I posted a couple of quick tweets:
And then, quite literally, I went and took a nap.
Later I discovered that Mr. Day’s possibly imaginary wife, known only as Space Bunny, had weighed in with her own attempted “gotcha.”
I thought that was that. So imagine my surprise to see that Mr. Day had retreated to his blog Alpha Game to boast about his great success in “exposing a Gamma.” That gamma being me.
In his typically pompous prose, Mr. Day explained that his Twitter encounter with me
should help illustrate why the critics of Game are so hesitant to directly challenge any of the leading Game bloggers; despite their pretensions they know very well that they are overmatched.
Oh, plus I’m a fat loser who can’t get laid:
Critics such as Futrelle and Scalzi are of low socio-sexual rank, which means that they have the usual gamma male’s distaste for conflict that has a clear winner. The reason is that as long as they can avoid losing, they can still claim victory in their delusional gamma style.
“Delusional Gamma Style” was Psy’s little known followup to Gangnam Style.
Notice how Futrelle tries to immediately declare himself the winner. This is normal. It’s all about the spin with gammas; substance is to be avoided to the greatest extent possible because the more of it there is, the harder it becomes to spin the selected narrative. They are undefeated in their own minds, victors in a long series of imaginary encounters.
At this point Mr. Day – apparently oblivious to irony– declares himself the winner:
But even in a short, character-limited exchange such as this, I was able to show Futrelle’s reasoning to be incorrect twice, so it is little wonder he does not dare risk a more in-depth encounter with me or one of the other men. The longer it went on, the more inconsistencies I would have been able to expose. Once he realized this, he promptly repeated his initial position and retreated.
Yeah, I’m sure you would have done a bang-up job showing me that since it’s ok to restrict people to voting only in the places in which they actually live, it is also ok to deny votes to women.
This is why we are winning. This is why we will win. Our critics and our enemies have to run away from us every single time we enter a new arena. All we have to do to continue convincing men of the truth of our perspective is to avoid getting lazy, to keep developing and presenting refined ideas, and to remember that rhetoric is no substitute for dialectic. And every time there is a minor encounter of this sort, more people will see that there is no rational foundation for the feminized dogma our opponents are so ineptly defending.
You just keep telling yourself that.
EDITED TO ADD: Just noticed this amazing comment on Vox’s site, from someone called Doom. (What’s with misogynists and their supervillain names?)
Actually, when women see these debates, they choose the strong side. I don’t think they always understand, or agree, but they instinctively know strong from weak, and generally choose strong. But then fall back into confusion without a steady stream of strength, which most men haven’t been presenting them. Game is changing that, from what I am seeing. There is as much hope as there is time. Then again, as things are setting up, a break will be for the good.
Game isn’t just a sexual struggle, it opens up much else in life. Men who begin to master game aren’t willing to be helpless in other parts of their lives. That bites into the need, and want, of bigger government. Zoom!
Ladies love mansplaining assholes! Soon the governments of the world will crumble before us!
—
So why should men have the vote? If it’s open to question for women, it should be open to question for men.
PZ Myers and the Horde have picked up on this and are laughing at Poxy Teddy too:
http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2014/07/28/i-must-be-a-gamma-too/#comments
My post was rather badly phrased – I certainly didn’t mean to imply Christian necessarily = mainstream. I probably shouldn’t post after 3 am after chemotherapy… and here I am compounding the offence!
Yes, the Vatican’s clothing codes (and the numerous non-RC churches which follow it, such as the Anglicans/Episcopalians) are basically modified Roman (as in Latin) pontifex gear of around the 4th century, complete with the vocabulary: albs and whatnot. However, I’d say that is still Western culture, even if an oddly antiquated aspect of it. It’s almost quintessential Western culture, if we trace that back to the Roman Empire.
Also, I’m not sure what culture could be if not connected with continuity? (Again, maybe that’s just an odd perspective, as I spend most of my time thinking and writing about history…)
As the original post mentioned the Vatican and Saudi Arabia, I was surprised that your response about not mocking the clothing expressions of other cultures instanced the Vatican – which seems to be part of “our” culture, depending on how wide we cast that net – rather than Saudi Arabia, which isn’t.
I’m happy to make fun of Saudi Arabia’s non-neutral cultural expressions (like not allowing women full citizenhood or driving licences). However, not their menswear!
I don’t think we should be mocking anyone for wearing something we may read as a dress – or even for wearing an actual dress bought from Mrs Dressy’s Dress Shop with “DRESS” on it in sequinned letters, for that matter.
Here’s the current state of play regarding Yee Auld Fallus:
@Phoenician in a time of Romans
Looking at Beale’s background, I think the profile fits something I’ve seen before – the guy is living on inherited wealth and really is trying to prove himself.
The thing is, despite the wealth and what he blows it on, he’s still disregarded and not noteworthy, and is a bit of a laughing stock. I usually find folks like Beale have daddy issues – made worse if daddy is domineering or is into weird politics.
He’s in the shadow of his father, a man whose wealth he depended on, a man who made more than he did now (and thus he’s secretly jealous), and a man who fell hard (and he can’t admit that daddy was a bad person). It’s so Freudian my teeth ache.
This dress shop needs to be a thing.
Yes it does. I need a dress from them with DRESS o it in sequinned letters to avoid any possible confusion with my robes.
PITR: Seriously – the Papacy, the College of Cardinals – they’re goddamned hangovers modelling themselves in style on the days of feudalism. Fuck them.
If you want to say that, say that; don’t use the manner of their clothing as if “guys in dresses” somehow means that.
Ever worn a lava-lava? I have no problem in saying that I have, while I was visiting Raro.
Are we supposed to be impressed? I’ve worn lava-lava in Los Angeles. I wear kilts as a matter of course; while not in Scotland (or Eastern Canada).
Of course I’ve also spent a lot of time in a cassock (the garment you dismissed as, “a dress”.
So in making fun of the College of Cardinals, you chose the “feminacy” of their garments as the point of difference, without mentioning any of the rest.
bluecatbabe: Agreed that there’s nothing intrinsically mockable about wearing dresses (or garments that can be read as dresses), but I don’t really get how the Vatican is “another culture”.
The same way the Army, or the House of Representatives, or The Masons, or Girl Scouts, or Alpha Gamma Sigma are another culture.
Maybe it’s just me: an excommunicate cradle Catholic.
Really? I say this because I’m surprised, in 47 years of being a Catholic (of various level of observance), I’ve never met anyone who was actually excommunacate (it’s possible I have, in the past few weeks, since Francis declared being a member of any of the various groups which are collectively known as, “The Mafia” are Anathema; but that’s a blanket proscription, not an individual reading out: Hrmn… I guess it’s possible I knew a someone who was a mason before JP II lifted the anathema on that, but that [as with the mafiosi] sort of requires the offender to self-declare).
All things being equal, it’s not that I couldn’t be (there are some issues of theology I don’t disuss with bishops, because I am somewhat non-orthodox on them; a few border on heresy, again, I digress).
Which is pretty bizarre, though I think she was exaggerating about the wigs.
She wasn’t. She was discussing the formal attire of British legal actions. Barristers and Judges (and the House of Lords, when sitting in formal session on Occasions of State, are still required to wear horsehair wigs).
Emily: That’s a fair point. To me, the Vatican has always seemed like an insulated cultural island, where new fashions are resisted when they’re encountered at all (there doesn’t seem to be much interaction or exchange with the rest of humanity),
Not quite. There are institutional pressures (most stemming from no forced retirement) but the interactions with the outside world do exist. I know one of the Vatican Astronomers (though he is being posted away in the soon. I’ll see him at the WorldCon in London in a couple of weeks). The problem is more that the entire Curia, fromm the most junior parish priest, to the Pope, are “in the world but not of it”, from the moment the enter Seminary.
This (and the lack of women in the clergy) as well as the long delay from when someone enters Orders, to the time they become players in the shaping/forming of doctrine and policy, means The Church, has always been a bit behind the times (see either the Borgias, or Martin Luther).
We’re talking about people who routinely used Latin until the 1960’s
Actually, I would sort of like it if we still did. I can’t attend mass, in a completely meaniningful way in any place which isn’t either Anglophonic, or French. When I’ve been in Germany, Ukraine, Korea, and Ecuador, it was opaque to me.
But I was raised Protestant, so maybe this is normal to other people
It certainly is to Jews (non-reform) and Moslems.
WIZZARD!
The irony of the “They used Latin!” Iine and implication that it’s hopelessly behind the times or exclusionary is that Latin made the services universal. Plus I seem to recall Mum saying that there were translations right there in the book of service, prayer book (I don’t know the correct name) – Latin in one column, English in the other – and she stopped going to church before Vatican II had happened, so it’s hardly a new thing.
Another aspect of VD’s omniFAIL: The Warmouse (aka “OpenOffice Mouse”). Set the WABAC machine to somewhere around 2008-2010, that being when anybody on the net paid any attention at all to VD’s truly impressive input peripheral.
The Warmouse was an 18-button computer mouse. That’s right: A mouse.
A fully programmable mouse.
With 18 buttons.
And a scroll wheel.
And an analog joystick.
And some kind of clicker-thingie.
Apparently, the Warmouse was originally conceived as an aid for players of World of Warcraft, and then somebody realized that there’s other apps besides WoW which have lots of keystroke shortcuts that could be triggered by buttons on a mouse…
If you haven’t heard of the Warmouse, well, that kind of underscores how big a FAIL the over-buttoned übermaus truly was, eh?
Cubist, I’ve read about the WarMouse, but only because of looking Vox Day up online. When one of the few achievements your Wikipedia page lists is something like that, you need to stop selling death sticks at the cantina, go home, and rethink your life.
Also, regarding the Vatican. It occurs to me that it is perhaps the last absolute monarchy in Europe. The pope appoints the cardinals, to lifetime posts. When a pope dies, or resigns, the cardinals as a group elect one of their own to a lifetime position as supreme leader. Lather, rinse, repeat. The fact that the pope is supreme head of the church AND absolute ruler of a sovereign nation is something that cradle Catholics grow up with, but that probably seems strange to others. Somewhere along the line, the idea of the pope having secular authority became incredibly important.
But the only way someone can get elected is to be a cardinal, so you have to be a priest, so you have to be a man. And only the cardinals get to vote.
But the only way someone can get elected is to be a cardinal,
Point of information: The only way to be elected is to be elected. There is no requirement that the person the College of Cardinals selects be a cardinal. In theory such a person could be both a woman, and a non-Catholic. Doctrinally the selection is “by the work of The Holy Spirit, manifest in the Cardinals” (though almost no one believes this is purely the case; cardinals are people; presumably more attuned to matters spiritual than most, but in no way divorced from matter temporal).
For any number of, completely practical, reasons the odds of a non-cardinal being chosen is slim (though there were rumors of someone who wasn’t a cardinal being discussed when Ratzinger was finally elected), and I can’t imagine someone who wasn’t a member of some religious order being chosen.
Because the Church is an institution, not just a spiritual association, and matters temporal must be addressed; so whomever is to be chosen needs to be familiar with those issues; and not be so far outside the culture that they can’t take the reins.
There has been at least one pope who wasn’t a cardinal, hasn’t there? Back when there were rivals for the papal crown, wasn’t some poor schmuck with a repuation for holiness elected as a compromise candidate?
The term absolute monarchy tends to be a bit misleading anyway. In theory an absolute monarch isn’t bound by the law, but it tends to work out that the massive inertia of custom, accepted behaviour, and not least bureaucracy, limits their freedom of action quite a lot. Hell, the Vatican bureaucracy even stopped old Ratzinger having his cats live with him!
Nah, not if you’re a history lover. 🙂
I’d classify the Vatican as a rather insular part of our (Western) culture, rather than a different culture. But on one level, you can be othering towards anything, regardless of how mainstream it is, as long as you approach it with the attitude of “those people are weird because they behave differently than me.”
Returning briefly to votes for women, interesting article in the guardian, with the contents section not yet infested with MRAs.
http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2014/jul/28/guardian-editors-role-in-suffragette-movement-emmeline-pankhurst-feminism-charles-prestwich-scott
Apologies if already posted.
katz: I’m willing to say there are many congruent/confluent cultures (“Western” and not), but just a France/Germany/England/Canada/US/Mexico/Spain/Honduras/Quebec are different cultures with common aspects, so to are subsets inside that.
There are fannish cultures, blog cultures, organisational cultures (I got the reference to Grabthar’s Hammer as soon as I read it, in Los Angeles SF Fandom (particularly the LASFS) on can say, “it’s all Dick Eney’s Fault” and it will be understood). There are things one doesn’t do in the Army (e.g. carry things in one’s right hand) which are alien modes of thought to other people, ostensibly in the same culture.
Most of us inhabit more than one culture, and “code shift” to avoid confusing others.
And I think the insularity of the clerical culture (esp in the parts we refer to as, “The Curia”) are detrimental to organisation. I hope the the efforts Francis is making to be more generally in contact with people who aren’t in the Curia will serve as an example to others; more than I hope he is managing to maintain a sense of humility by those actions.
Sorry if I’m pontificating/over-splaining. It’s a subject I care about, and one I’d like to see some (well, let’s dream big, all) of the problems reduced/rectified.
And now to bed.
(and yes, I still hope, in the press of packing for a month away from home, to get those sayings transcribed. I’ve got them notated, I just need to sit down with the Russian keyboard and find the referenced aphorisms, and type them; proof them, translate them. Also I need to get you the email addy previously mentioned, Mea Culpa for the delay)
Neat, don’t worry about hurrying if it’s an awkward time for you. Soviet Russia will always be here.
In the EU women have voting rights (woha!) and you know what? Sweden voted in a representative from a feminist party. In the three biggest cities, the Feminist Initiative got more than 10% of the votes. Scary what enlightened people can do 😉
I honestly think that women voters produce undesirable outcomes. Exit polls show they have consistently voted for the most physically attractive candidate in every single American presidential election since being granted suffrage..They even preferred Dewey to Truman.
@ pecunium
I enjoyed that! Very interesting.
Also what effect do you think Francis’ declaration against the Mafia will have on organised crime in Italy? Will any devout mafia members actually, you know, turn from organised crime in fear of their immortal souls? Or will they ignore it?