So apparently I just had a debate with Vox Day?
A couple of days ago, you see, a Twitterer calling himself RedPillPhil suggested I was a bit of a coward for taking on an “easy target” like A Voice for Men rather than taking on the leading intellectual lights of the so-called “Dark Enlightenment” like … Heartiste, and Vox Day … who I actually write about all the time.
My laughter must have carried all the way to, well, wherever Vox Day lives, because Mr. Day soon appeared on Twitter and challenged me to a debate — on women’s right to vote. The very notion of two dudes earnestly debating female suffrage – in 2014, no less – struck me as beyond absurd, so I sent back what I thought was an appropriately dismissive Tweet:
@voxday @RedPillPhil @heartiste Yes, women should have voting rights, because they, like men, are human. I win the debate! The end.Thanks!
— David Futrelle (@DavidFutrelle) July 25, 2014
Apparently Mr. Day saw this tweet as my opening gambit in a debate that was now on, and replied with an attempted gotcha. Against my better judgment, I replied:
@voxday @RedPillPhil @heartiste No. I vote where I live, in the US.. So are you contending that no women live in the countries they vote in?
— David Futrelle (@DavidFutrelle) July 25, 2014
He replied, and I sunk deeper into the quicksand of this ridiculous “debate.”
@voxday @RedPillPhil @heartiste There are a few basic requirements for having the right to vote besides being human but being male isn't one
— David Futrelle (@DavidFutrelle) July 26, 2014
At this point I realized I needed to shut this thing down as quickly as possible. So I posted a couple of quick tweets:
And then, quite literally, I went and took a nap.
Later I discovered that Mr. Day’s possibly imaginary wife, known only as Space Bunny, had weighed in with her own attempted “gotcha.”
I thought that was that. So imagine my surprise to see that Mr. Day had retreated to his blog Alpha Game to boast about his great success in “exposing a Gamma.” That gamma being me.
In his typically pompous prose, Mr. Day explained that his Twitter encounter with me
should help illustrate why the critics of Game are so hesitant to directly challenge any of the leading Game bloggers; despite their pretensions they know very well that they are overmatched.
Oh, plus I’m a fat loser who can’t get laid:
Critics such as Futrelle and Scalzi are of low socio-sexual rank, which means that they have the usual gamma male’s distaste for conflict that has a clear winner. The reason is that as long as they can avoid losing, they can still claim victory in their delusional gamma style.
“Delusional Gamma Style” was Psy’s little known followup to Gangnam Style.
Notice how Futrelle tries to immediately declare himself the winner. This is normal. It’s all about the spin with gammas; substance is to be avoided to the greatest extent possible because the more of it there is, the harder it becomes to spin the selected narrative. They are undefeated in their own minds, victors in a long series of imaginary encounters.
At this point Mr. Day – apparently oblivious to irony– declares himself the winner:
But even in a short, character-limited exchange such as this, I was able to show Futrelle’s reasoning to be incorrect twice, so it is little wonder he does not dare risk a more in-depth encounter with me or one of the other men. The longer it went on, the more inconsistencies I would have been able to expose. Once he realized this, he promptly repeated his initial position and retreated.
Yeah, I’m sure you would have done a bang-up job showing me that since it’s ok to restrict people to voting only in the places in which they actually live, it is also ok to deny votes to women.
This is why we are winning. This is why we will win. Our critics and our enemies have to run away from us every single time we enter a new arena. All we have to do to continue convincing men of the truth of our perspective is to avoid getting lazy, to keep developing and presenting refined ideas, and to remember that rhetoric is no substitute for dialectic. And every time there is a minor encounter of this sort, more people will see that there is no rational foundation for the feminized dogma our opponents are so ineptly defending.
You just keep telling yourself that.
EDITED TO ADD: Just noticed this amazing comment on Vox’s site, from someone called Doom. (What’s with misogynists and their supervillain names?)
Actually, when women see these debates, they choose the strong side. I don’t think they always understand, or agree, but they instinctively know strong from weak, and generally choose strong. But then fall back into confusion without a steady stream of strength, which most men haven’t been presenting them. Game is changing that, from what I am seeing. There is as much hope as there is time. Then again, as things are setting up, a break will be for the good.
Game isn’t just a sexual struggle, it opens up much else in life. Men who begin to master game aren’t willing to be helpless in other parts of their lives. That bites into the need, and want, of bigger government. Zoom!
Ladies love mansplaining assholes! Soon the governments of the world will crumble before us!
—
Maybe I missed something (or avoided it to save my soul) but what is the difference between betas and gammas in MRA speak? And are there not even more lower level categories like manginas and white knights? It would be easier if they just called everyone else PWDL (People we don’t like).
Gammas turn green and start smashing shit when they get angry.
Betas attack other males/mirrors.
It is kind of an important different.
Ahh, so by “debate” he meant “take your opponent’s broad statements and pretend they were exact, then pretend you win when you can point out enough ‘inconsistencies.'”
Honestly, how could he “win” if he never actually argued anything?
@Mizuki:
Pretty sure they started with “Alpha” and “Beta,” then figured they might need some other levels in this imaginary hierarchy so they dredged up more greek alphabet. There are even people that consider themselves Omega males, though why you’d voluntarily take that label or why you’d consider it a postive thing eludes me.
No…actually, when we see these “debates”, as this twitwiffle calls them, we women nudge each other with an elbow to the ribs, point at the MRA/PUA “debater” (oh, a masterdebater, no doubt about it), giggle, and speculate unflatteringly on the calibre of pistol he’s packing.
And then we turn our minds to more interesting things than these interminable MRA/PUA chest-thumping monologues, like watching the paint dry, the grass grow, etc.
Maybe they’re using Marvel logic? Don’t do that guys. Marvel doesn’t have very good logic.
Also, “Dark Enlightenment” is an oxymoron. A better term for the drugs these clowns are pushing would be “Dork Benightenment”.
I’m still not sure if they think they’re being clever with that term or if they’re so stupid that the fact that these two words together make no sense just hasn’t occurred to them.
“No…actually, when we see these “debates”, as this twitwiffle calls them, we women nudge each other with an elbow to the ribs, point at the MRA/PUA “debater” (oh, a masterdebater, no doubt about it), giggle, and speculate unflatteringly on the calibre of pistol he’s packing.”
I know, I know, men are a privileged group. Still it’s not cool to attack people based on real or perceived physical attributes.
Teh Stoopid is strong with this bunch, and it’s the only thing truly strong about them (other than, of course, the stench of cheap cologne). Especially Spacebunny, who seems quite happy to equate herself with a child. Gotta be imaginary. Is there a real woman out there who would seriously go that route?
If Spacebunny is a real person I think she and her hubbie are just perfect for each other, and I thank both of them for taking each other off the market and thus insulting everyone else from The Stupid.
@cassandrakitty:
No no, see, it’s ironic, and that makes it clever!
If she IS real, and in earnest, she has quite the talent for putting herself down…no doubt saving Mr. Wonderful there from having to lift a finger to do it himself. Yeah, he da Big Man, all right.
So I work in a traditionally female field, I have less education/earning potential than my (female) partner, and I do the majority of the housework. And it should go without saying, I support feminism.
How far down the Greek alphabet do I get? Delta? Epsilon? Mu?
Hey now, Dark Enlightenment makes just as much sense as Indiscriminate Discrimination. You just can’t comprehend the brilliance and the juxtaposition because stoopid ladybrainz or something.
Vox’s own counterargument results from his poorly framed question in the first place. Had Vox instead asked “Should women have the same voting rights as men?” he wouldn’t even be able to provide a criticism of David’s position. Good job for undermining your own debating “skils”, Vox!
“skills”*
VD is the perfect initialisation for him, he is just like herpes – he won’t go away permanently.
The name bugs me for another reason: shouldn’t it be Vox Dies? (Help me Latin scholars.)
If he and JB were ever in the same room together, would it implode from that amount of stupidity and destroy the two of them? Should I start up an Indiegogo project to fund this as an experiment?
Maybe a few years down the road they’ll run out of Greek letters and notice that maybe, just maybe, things aren’t quite as simple.
@Robert: Theodore Beale awoke from fitful dreams to discover that he had been transformed into a tiny human being.
Heh. At first i thought the book you reference was going to change me forever, but it just wound up bugging me…
I’m pretty sure Dark Enlightenment is just because they think the word “Dark” makes them sound cool and edgy.
Did he just admit to being SpaceBunny? Looks like it.
This is why we are winning. This is why we will win. Our critics and our enemies have to run away from us every single time we enter a new arena.
Oh man. Teddy came to Making Light some years back. By the time Teresa got around to dealing with him there wasn’t much to do but mop up (that is niether a lightweight, nor when aroused, gentle commentariat). He left. Some months later he decided he had to make some other sort of statement.
He has, to the best of my knowledge, never come back. Making Light still stands, and the Flourosphereans seem to be as hale and hearty as ever they were.
I also note the Teddy doesn’t actually head to Whatever to rail against Scalzi, but rather sticks to his private idaho, where he can be assured of people telling him how brave and noble he is for saying his “enemies” are poopy headed cowards.
If Spacebunny is a real person
There is some question about that, actually. The only evidence for her existence seems to be in comments. There are photos alleged to be of her but they seem to be images from a stock photo service, and as such I feel reasonable in doubting their veracity.
The name bugs me for another reason: shouldn’t it be Vox Dies
No, Vox Dei
Which is, actually, (Given that Teddy is, as I recall, a Catholic), a couple of sins in concert (pride, to the level of Hubris, being the really obvious one).
If he’s Catholic is this his super seekrit but not really because he’s a dumbass way of letting people know that he’s part of Opus Dei? Or his way of spitting on the very idea?
What sort of intestinal fortitude you must have! This is all new to me, I mean I’ve seen and dismissed my share of MRAs, but I just came from accidentally stumbling across “Return of Kings” and I’m just stunned at the mess; there and in the posts you share. Being a child of The Onion and a fan of Christwire, this stuff really reads like a tight satire of misogyny. It’s so alien and contrary to sanity, it’s like a punch in the gut to realize they aren’t kidding. Well, keep up the good work, I’m off to take a shower.
Oh, he tried for the phonetics? I’d interpreted Day as meaning, well, the 24-hour period, hence my suggestion. So his use of Day for Dei indicates the level of smarts of his “followers”. LOL