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atheism attention seeking lying liars misogyny MRA pedophiles oh sorry ephebophiles the amazing atheist

The Amazing Atheist's not-so-amazing thoughts on the age of consent

The alleged theamazingatheist's allegedly false confession
The alleged theamazingatheist’s allegedly false confession

You may have run across an image macro going around the internet recently featuring a picture of YouTube ranter and sometime Men’s Rights ally The Amazing Atheist – aka Terroja or TJ Kinkaid – and an appalling quote, supposedly from him, arguing that MRAs should campaign to lower the age of consent, because “[n]ature already has an age of consent. That age is approximately 12-13, otherwise known as the onset of puberty.”

I didn’t post about the quote, appalling as it is, because I couldn’t find any proof that Mr. Kincaid actually wrote or said it; I even searched several of Mr. Kincaid’s books and a document entitled “The Somewhat Complete Ravings of TJ Kincaid” to no avail. Apparently no one else has been able to find the quote either.

If this quote was fabricated, I’m a little puzzled as to why, because Kincaid has actually said very similar things before. Given the confusion about the quote, I thought it might be worth noting what we know he has said on the topic.

In a 2006 posting on a Marilyn Manson fan site, linked to in RationalWiki’s profile of him, a self-identified “atheist libertarian” calling himself Terroja argued that

Having pedophilic attractions doesn’t mean you automatically go out and start molesting kids. From the time I was 14 to the time I was about 19, I used to have extreme pedophilic fantasies, and I somehow managed to never even come close to acting on them. I think with my brain, not my penis.

I do think, however, the pedophilia is unfairly persecuted in today’s society.

I think the difference in punishment between child rapists and child molestors should be more significant, with molestors perhaps simply attending mandatory therapy for their first offense. I also think that the age of sexual consent should be lowered to 12 or 13.

My stance is not designed to be controversial or to offend anyone. I only want human beings to understand that the law must work within the parameters of human nature, not in defiance of it.

In a recent posting on his blog, Kincaid admits that this indeed is something he once believed:

The age of consent thing is based on a post I made on an internet forum when I was like 20. And it was actually a pretty popular sentiment on the boards at that time. Hell, it was a popular sentiment on the internet in general at that time. It was also, I’m sad to say, an opinion that my father held.

After experiencing another decade on planet earth, I realize how horribly misguided that opinion was and is. I think that maybe it’s not so horrible for kids that age to begin sexual exploration with one another, but it’s definitely wrong for an adult to engage is sex with someone that young and inexperienced. 

The “everyone else was a pedophile in 2006” argument is not exactly a convincing one, and it’s worth noting that Kincaid “confessed” his attraction towards underage girls in his self-published 2007 book “Scumbag: Musings of a Subhuman” as well, writing that

I think 14-year-old girls are hot. (Yeah, so does everyone else, but I actually admit it)

That’s what pedophiles would like to believe, but it’s not actually true.

Also, in “The Somewhat Complete Ravings of TJ Kincaid,” which seems to be a compilation of writings from several of his books, we find the following passage:

Teenage girls are annoying because they go out into public dressed like sluts and then if you look at their massive titties there is a segment of our society that will happily declare you a pedophile for “oggling those poor children.” Children, my ass. Children don’t have D cups. Children don’t have big, luscious round asses crammed into designer jeans.

For what it’s worth, the word is “ogling,” not “oggling.”

Even more troubling than these quotes is the fact that Kincaid also claimed at one point that he “dated” a 14-year-old when he was 23.

In his recent posting, he insists that he was only joking:

As for this nonsense about me dating a 14-year-old when I was 23, I was actually mocking a friend of mine who was over 30 and was macking on some 16-year-old girl. The sad fact is that when I was 23, I was single and pussyless. And I was too timid and frightened to even approach a girl sexually, let alone one who could wind me up in prison.

I have no trouble believing that he was lying about having an underage girlfriend, but his explanation doesn’t seem to jibe with what he – or someone claiming to be him – said in the very strange (and not altogether safe for work) video that seems to be the source for what Kincaid calls this “rumor” about him.

Roughly 30 minutes into the video, which shows a live BlogTV session between YouTube personality thefakesagan and some guests in  an internet chatroom, we see someone identified as theamazingatheist declare flatly in the chat session that “as a 23-year-old I dated a 14-year-old briefly.”

When the expletive-spewing thefakesagan asks him what it was that led him to stop “dating” the 14-year-old so quickly, theamazingatheist replies “fear of her dad murdering me,” adding in a followup comment that “he was a Marine, actually.”

When the host, burping and fiddling with a bass guitar, asks theamazingatheist if he actually felt “an emotional bond with this 14-year-old bitch,” themazingatheist replies “I felt an emotional bond with her pussy.”

“Sorry,” he types a few moments later, “I’m a sociopath, useless in the ways of love.”

The host then spends a few moments fumbling with his instrument, trying ineptly to work out the bassline to Michael Jackson’s “Beat It.” “You better run, you better do what you’re told,” he sings, “TJ’s in the back room fucking a 14-year-old.”

The conversation moves on, and I think I will too.

But now that I’ve gotten hold of some of TJ’s masterworks, I think I’ll have to see what else is hiding within them. I suspect I’ll be posting about that shortly.

 

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fruitloopsie
fruitloopsie
6 years ago

gorillaella

“I just hope the scumbag never breeds”

I hope he never approaches a person of any age ever!

I agree with CassandraKitty. If you can’t control yourself then turn yourself in so you won’t hurt anyone anymore.
But the thing is these types of people just want to do whatever they want without consequences. It has nothing to do with “lack of control” or “biology” they see it, they want it, and they want everyone else to take the fall. (Blame the victims, say that everyone thinks like them, etc)

Ugh this is beyond disgusting, putrid and gross it’s disputridoss! To think that this is happening all over the world, everyday, as we speak. I need brain bleach
http://youtu.be/p2H5YVfZVFw

Jo
Jo
6 years ago

maistrechat, that’s terrible and reminds me of South Korea, where drunkenness of the rapist was a valid defence in court until two years ago:
http://koreajoongangdaily.joins.com/news/article/article.aspx?aid=2961949
Yes, a rapist could say ‘I was drunk’and have his conviction quashed or sentence reduced. There are lots of wonderful things about Korean culture and society, but gender issues are shocking.
Warning: link above contains disturbing details of a child rape case.

DJG
DJG
6 years ago

@Dvarg – I had the same certainty about never cheating when I was romantically active, and it held up successfully. Sorry you get such a hostile response; eye rolling because so many people made the claim with all sincerity and then cheated, or because it was a bit of a stock claim people were presumably supposed to make is how I was usually received, and it seemed understandable if people didn’t seem willing to bet on anyone’s living up to it.

There’s also the “can’t help with whom one falls in love” claim, which seems to strike me much the way “born this way” strikes you. It has some merit and positive effects, but people who take it too far often end up reminding me of Linnet Doyle from *Death on the Nile*

girlsmarts
girlsmarts
6 years ago

@weirdwoodhugger- that’s a good point. I’ve always had A cups and I’m starting to appreciate the gross stares that saved me from as a CHILD of 14-17. Idk how anyone in their right mind could say anyone who goes through puberty, i.e. children as young as 10, would be considered an adult.

YoullNeverGuess
YoullNeverGuess
6 years ago

I thought Orion was trying to say that people like TAA effectively normalize a wide range of morally reprehensible behavior by claiming to be criminals when they are just predatory creeps. It provides covers for actual criminals and helps predatory creeps justify themselves by claiming they just say what every other guy thinks.

NOBODY should be attracted to a five-year-old. Ever. It’s normal for fourteen-year-olds to be attracted to other fourteen-year-olds. The older you get, the more a fourteen-year-old should look like a kid.

I think it’s similar to blurring the lines of consent. A jerk who preys on vulnerable women but stays just on this side of consent might claim to be a serial rapist, thereby excusing his own behavior, because people recognize his hyperbole, and also adding to the idea that consent is an impossible mystery.

Zolnier
Zolnier
6 years ago

And conversely, are late bloomers supposed to be treated as less mature beings than people who happened to hit puberty earlier according to these guys? Though these people probably think puberty happens overnight on your thirteenth birthday or whenever you stumble upon some horrible libertarian tract.

Jo
Jo
6 years ago

YoullNeverGuess: yes, that’s more or less how I understood it, but when the second paragraph defined paedophilia to exclude teenagers, a lot of people, quite understandably, thought AAARG, NOT THIS FREAKING EBOBBLYPHILIA DEFENCE AGAIN and skipped the next six paragraphs.

Wetherby
Wetherby
6 years ago

NOBODY should be attracted to a five-year-old. Ever. It’s normal for fourteen-year-olds to be attracted to other fourteen-year-olds. The older you get, the more a fourteen-year-old should look like a kid.

And this is why some countries with eyebrow-raisingly-low ages of consent also have laws that insist on a maximum age gap – typically, both people have to be under 18.

Dvärghundspossen
6 years ago

@DJG:

I had the same certainty about never cheating when I was romantically active, and it held up successfully. Sorry you get such a hostile response; eye rolling because so many people made the claim with all sincerity and then cheated, or because it was a bit of a stock claim people were presumably supposed to make is how I was usually received, and it seemed understandable if people didn’t seem willing to bet on anyone’s living up to it.

I do believe that there are plenty of people who make that claim with all sincerity and then change their minds when enough of a temptation comes along. And if someone had said “You say this now, but just wait until someone hot enough wants to have it off with you, you’re probably gonna change your mind then, because people do this all the time”, I would still have been a bit miffed, but… That’s not what people tend to say in my experience. Instead, they talk as if sex is something that happens to you – as if you can’t be certain that you’re not gonna cheat, because you never know, some SEX might fall down on you when you least expect it! And that’s the kind of denial of responsibility for one’s sexual actions that feed into rape culture IMO.

Dvärghundspossen
6 years ago

Thanks, Jo. 🙂

Dvärghundspossen
6 years ago

I think a German Mammoth-member said it’s something like that in Germany?

And this is why some countries with eyebrow-raisingly-low ages of consent also have laws that insist on a maximum age gap – typically, both people have to be under 18.

Don’t remember exactly, but think their lowest age of consent was thirteen or something like that, but only fourteen- and thirteen-year-olds can have sex with thirteen-year-olds…

I briefly dated a sixteen-year-old girl when I was twenty. Looking back, I think it was a bit skeevy actually. She was the one who got my number through mutual friends and wanted to come visit and well, initiated the whole thing, but it was probably mostly because she thought it would be cool to have an adult girlfriend for a while (who lived in the Big City, too – that probably factored in). And I thought it was cool, I guess, to have someone thinking that I was so cool. That’s not the best relationship dynamic (although, as I said, it was pretty brief for a variety of reasons – we still keep in touch though). BUUUUT it would obv have been a million times skeevier if I had been thirty or forty rather than twenty. So yeah, the size of the age gap, not just how old the younger party is, definitely matters.

leftwingfox
6 years ago

I think it’s similar to blurring the lines of consent.

Oh yes. “They can’t help themselves” is another version of “she was asking for it”; the idea that sexual attraction overrides our empathy or willingness to obey the law. It’s bullshit, and dangerous bullshit.

I really, REALLY, don’t like to admit this, but I’m a twisted fuck. I have fantasies which would be horrific to act out in the real world. Yet I’m not a mindless monster; I choose not to hurt other people for sexual gratification. I try and express those fantasies in ways which are safe, consensual, and most importantly, enjoyable for everyone involved. I would rather die a virgin than live as a rapist.

The 20-somethigns who date young teens, the guys who choose positions of power with access to children have chosen to act on their desires to the detriment of others, just as any rapist chooses to act on their desires over the objections of their victims. All the excuses and justifications for their behaviour simply creates a safe place for them to continue to prey on people.

maistrechat
6 years ago

@Wetherby

I grew up in a state where the age of consent was 14 as long as both parties are within 5 years of each other. This resulted in nightclubs having “all-ages” nights where only those in the 14-19 year old age range were supposed to be allowed in.

leftwingfox
6 years ago

Erf, sorry Dvärghundspossen… Didn’t mean to hit you with generalization splash from my last paragraph.

A Rose for Emily
A Rose for Emily
6 years ago

Apropos of age gaps: http://xkcd.com/314/

If you solve the creepiness equation both ways, you get:

(YourAge/2 + 7) <= TheirAge <= (2*YourAge – 14)

as the acceptable dating age range. As a corollary, it's never OK to date if you're younger than 14, and 14-year-olds can only date 14-year-olds. QED

Dvärghundspossen
6 years ago

Leftwing, it’s okay. 🙂

I said myself that a 20-year-old who likes being considered cool and a 16-year-old who thinks it’s cool to have an adult girlfriend aren’t the best relationship dynamic, but I thought you referred more to relationships with a little bit bigger age gaps than that and where the older party takes the initiative.

Dvärghundspossen
6 years ago

So according to that comic strip that Emily Rose posted, a 37-year-old like myself ought not to date anyone under 20, since that would be creepy. (Obv I had to compulsively check whether that equation gives plausible answers.)

leftwingfox
6 years ago

I thought you referred more to relationships with a little bit bigger age gaps than that and where the older party takes the initiative.

Thank you, and yes, that was my intended sentiment. 🙂 I just realized how that could be misinterpreted after I posted and saw yours.

LBT
LBT
6 years ago

Our mother hit puberty when she was about eight. She was also molested around that age. The idea that child molestation is a less violent crime is welcome to check my family out and learn ALLLLLLL about the ways it fucked everyone up.

I do believe there are some poor schmucks who are attracted to children. However, brain should trump balls every time. I have all the sympathy for people with really unfortunate sexualities, if they aren’t using them to hurt anyone. I have none whatsoever for child-molesters. Do they need help? Sure. But I should never be involved, because this is a topic of deep anger for me.

RE: Orion

You are really starting to piss me off right now. No, thanks for playing, mental illness doesn’t turn you into an child-raper. And if pedophiles really are COMPELLED to molest children, then the only moral thing to do is commit themselves. Or does their mental illness FORCE them not to do that either? What a convenient mental illness!

It wasn’t my grandfather’s FEELINGS that wrecked my family. It was his ACTIONS, and those are all on him.

You’ll be pleased to know that my child-molesting grandfather never got committed, never took pills, in fact, completely got away with raping multiple children and got a seven-gun salute at his funeral. He was treated as a fucking war hero, and the child-raping was completely covered up. Fuck you and the opulent horse you rode in on.

RE: Kittehs

I’m just reading about NAMBLA – I’d heard the acronym before but didn’t know what it meant.

I am sorry but also envious. I knew about them for a long time!

LBT
LBT
6 years ago

Also, our rapist was twenty and we were sixteen. He really liked using the whole “mature for your age” thing. Of course, the reason we were so “mature” was because our parents were neglectful and couldn’t emotionally care for us, so basically it was just piling on bad treatment before to justify more bad treatment later.

The horrible part is, dude totally groomed us to be his little mother/wifeykins/underage sextoy. We WERE the grown-up in the relationship, trying to get him to go to school, apply for work, get tested for STDs which he’d put off…

Hell, he MET us when we were working, right before going back to school! Just… AAAGH.

Wetherby
Wetherby
6 years ago

If you solve the creepiness equation both ways, you get:

(YourAge/2 + 7) <= TheirAge <= (2*YourAge – 14)

as the acceptable dating age range.

That gives me 30-80, which is fine by me.

And my nine-year-old daughter gets 4 to 11.5, which I’m equally comfortable with.

Flying Mouse
Flying Mouse
6 years ago

I got back before the sanitation pickup! The last trace of Allen Ginsberg has left my home and is on its way to the landfill, which is where it belongs.

Makes me think about that whole Zimmer-Bradley awfulness again. Should I burn those books of hers that I have because she was actually an awful human being? What about the fact that her daughter, in revealing her abuse, also emphasised the positive impact that her mother had had on individuals within the community of sci fi and fantasy writers? Does that make reading her books actually ok? Or is her daughter’s blessing upon her mother’s written works just not enough to make up for what that woman did to children?

Oh, that’s a tough one. I’ve heard some arguments for not conflating an artist’s work with their personal life. Terrible people can make beautiful things, things that can be incredibly inspiring and meaningful to a lot of people. OTOH, is it really right to lend financial support (in the way of books/albums/movie tickes purchased, concerts attended, etc.) to someone who does awful things with no remorse? I just pitched Ginsberg’s work, but there are still some problematic authors and musicians in my collection that I haven’t quite forced myself to purge. There are no easy answers. 🙁

By TAA logic, a 13 year old with a D cup is more mature than a 33 year old with an A cup.

I was thinking the same thing earlier. It’s like saying a fourteen year old boy who can grow a lush beard is more mature than a forty-year-old man with naturally sparse facial hair. But that may just be my childish ladybrain speaking – I have been an A cup or smaller my entire life, after all.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

@ A Rose for Emily

Someone who abuses kids isn’t necessarily attracted to them. It can just be about power, or about enjoying hurting people. Frankly I think “attracted to” is the wrong way to describe the feelings that any opportunistic predator is experiencing towards their victims.

Noadi
6 years ago

My line on separating artist from their work is whether they will personally benefit from my purchases. HP Lovecraft wrote some of my favorite short stories but he was a raging racist xenophobe and were he alive I’d avoid doing anything to put money in his pocket like I do with Orson Scott Card. Zimmer-Bradley is dead and can’t profit from any sales and I assume her children are receiving some of the royalties which doesn’t make up for having her as a mother but maybe makes their lives a little easier.

LBT
LBT
6 years ago

It just feels like a red herring to me, cassandrakitty. Who CARES whether someone who rapes a child is doing it out of attraction or some other reason? (Except for whoever is giving the perp treatment?) They’re still raping a child!

I’m attracted to men. Somehow, I manage to avoid raping them. I really don’t like how ‘but they’re doing it out of ATTRACTION and MENTAL ILLNESS’ is getting thrown out here.

Of course, I recently finished doing a takedown of an abusive con artist who’s been using a string of mental illnesses (DID, schizophrenia, ADD, PTSD, depression, and BPD, just off the top of my head) as an excuse for breaking, raping, and swindling thousands of dollars. My tolerance for people using their mental health as cover for abuse is at an all-time low.

maistrechat
6 years ago
Reply to  Noadi

For what it’s worth, all the proceeds from the e-book versions of MZB’s work are getting donated to Save the Children, so not only is she not profiting, the money is (hopefully) helping children instead of enabling their abuse.

My understanding is that Elizabeth Waters gets most of the royalties from the print works. Having read the depositions involved, she doesn’t seem like a super great person.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
6 years ago

Nobody is running around rounding up people who have thoughts about being attracted to children but who haven’t acted on them and involuntarily committing them.

Talking about having sexual urges toward children is a reportable occurrence in the most parts of the US, if not all of it. People in certain professions (mental health work is one) are required to report if you announce this to them. It’s the same as if you went into your therapist and talked about how you want to murder your dad and and you convince the therapist that you are extremely serious and there is a chance you might go through with it. Doctor/patient privilege does not actually protect that, and it doesn’t protect pedophilia either.

I’ve of two minds about this. Pedophiles who genuinely don’t want to offend are cut off from help, because the moment they admit these urges, they are reported. On the other hand, it is important to try to identify people who are very likely to commit crimes like rape or murder before they do it, and keep them from doing it; there is no number of “acceptable victims” that it is OK to have and just a cost of doing business in society.

This is one of those things for which I have no good answer. Pedophiles should have access to competent and compassionate mental health care, not because they are especially deserving but because this is something I consider a fundamental human right that everyone should have. But maybe they should have access to it from inside a facility that physically restrains them from offending.

LBT
LBT
6 years ago

I figure this is one of those things readers just have to decide for themselves. For instance, I really wish Tiny Us hadn’t bought all that Piers Anthony pedopologia back from the ages of 8-14; we were JUST the right age to think that all the shit he was spewing was fine. I’m not going to be buying any more, but I don’t think Tiny Us did some terrible deed by buying books she didn’t totally understand.

Of course, once you get into media that requires the collaboration of dozens or even hundreds of people (pretty much anything film) it gets even more complicated. How likely is it that no creeper was ever involved in the making of a film? How do you decide what is an acceptable amount of douchery (say, Adam Baldwin being in Firefly) and what is too much (say, any film by Roman Polanski)?

It’s an individual choice, I figure.

GrumpyOldNurse
GrumpyOldNurse
6 years ago

@Policy of Madness – I would much rather they get the help they need from inside an insitution where they can’t produce victims. Of course, some people are able to have these urges and not act on them (usually because they realise how damaging their actions would be), but that’s a matter for individual assessment.

I’m a mandated reporter in my jurisdiction, and it has caused a bit of ethical confusion in my personal life (this next bit might be TMI). My mother recently started threatening my brother’s life, and I wasn’t sure what to do with the information. I talked about it (at great length) with my therapist, who also happens to be an RN. We decided, given my mother’s history of random death threats, that my brother was at relatively low risk and, thus I did not need to report her. It was a tough call, though, ethically speaking. I have also been hesitant to discuss sexual abuse that I have experienced for the same reason (ie: would certain family members be reported?).

TL;DR each case has to be assessed on it’s own merits, and risk assessments are tricky.

@LBT – I think art largely exists apart from the artist. That said, I’m really glad that I never liked Piers Anthony or MZB all that much in the first place. Certainly doesn’t make me morally superior, though!

Phoenician in a time of Romans
Phoenician in a time of Romans
6 years ago

PoM: Talking about having sexual urges toward children is a reportable occurrence in the most parts of the US, if not all of it.

*sigh* I vaguely recall hearing of a case of a woman who admitted, maybe to a doctor, that she got sexually aroused breastfeeding her baby – and wound up with the authorities taking it away from her for a period before sanity cut back in.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

@ LBT

Yeah, I’ve been sitting here shaking my head and muttering “the point, why do you keep missing it?” over and over again.

theladyzombie
theladyzombie
6 years ago

Ho-lee shit. Did someone actually try to use the ‘It’s not pedophilia. It’s ephebophilia.’ argument, and then try to claim pedophilia is a sexual orientation? Goddammit.

Like we say over at SRS: What’s an ephebophile? A pedophile with a thesaurus.

Gross. Pedophilia is a recognized disorder in the paraphilia family of disorders. Also, homosexuality is a sexual orientation, heterosexuality is a sexual orientation, bisexuality is a sexual orientation, etc. Pedophilia IS NOT a sexual orientation. I see that bullshit argument too damn much and it makes me see red because usually what’s behind it is an attempt to normalize harmful behavior and pathologize homosexuality. I see someone make that argument, I immediately think that person is a creeper and a shithead.

zoon echon logon
zoon echon logon
6 years ago

@Chaos-Engineer

Also: The word “literally” can be used to add emphasis to a figurative statement: “He literally hit the ceiling”. The phrase “I could care less” is meant ironically and should be interpreted as “I don’t care at all.” “They” can be used as a singular pronoun for a person of unknown or unspecified gender: “Somebody left their keys in the lobby.” Oxford commas are a matter of personal preference and you can use them or not, as long as you’re consistent across the document. Arguing about any of this is a waste of time. I think that’s everything…

You make some good points. Irregardless, I still disagree with you about a lot of these.

LBT
LBT
6 years ago

RE: GrumpyOldNurse

@LBT – I think art largely exists apart from the artist.

Ennnnhh. As an artist myself, I’m… I’m not sure where I stand, but I definitely can’t separate art from artist entirely. Probably because PART of why I make the money I do isn’t because of my skill, but I’m pretty sure people just personally like me and what I say. I make money specifically BECAUSE I write about queer people, trans people, mentally weird people, and because I take on topics like multiplicity that a lot of folks haven’t.

Also, I still haven’t quite forgiven Piers Anthony for being the person who introduced us to the concept of rape at the age of seven… by saying that it was totally an acceptable thing that happened to beautiful women. (And later, to beautiful girls.)

RE: cassandrakitty

Yeah, I’ve been sitting here shaking my head and muttering “the point, why do you keep missing it?” over and over again.

*dry* I get the sense that this person has not actually experienced child-molestation or pedophilia personally. Admittedly, I’m a generation removed (I hate my rapist, but I’m not sure a 20-year-old raping a 16-year-old can be called a pedophile, legitly) but it’s a very personal, very heated topic with me.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

It’s the fact that multiple people keep going, well, is it an orientation? It’s very important that we know this, and if any given child molester has that orientation, that’s really making head hit desk. IT DOESN’T MATTER. If we were just talking about thoughts that someone kept to themselves then maybe, but the moment you act on that thought then your motivations are irrelevant because there is no ethically acceptable way to have sex with children, or to suggest that it might be OK for other adults to do so.

LBT
LBT
6 years ago

Well, you know, they might be mentally ill, and INCAPABLE of resisting assaulting children… even though they might hide it and cover it up for years. (Since, you know, if someone is truly compelled to do such a thing due to mental illness, they’d probably do it in front of cops.)

As a mentally ill person, this is EXACTLY the kind of shit that honks me off. Especially since I have never, EVER heard of my grandfather having any mental illness whatsoever. It sounds more like an excuse people use, rather than actually one that’s true.

theladyzombie
theladyzombie
6 years ago

You’re right, it really doesn’t matter. I’m kicking myself because I once had a link to a peer reviewed source that showed that the majority of pedophiles actually ended up molesting children, but my computer crashed and I lost it when I had to do a factory reset. I can’t find it now. :/

But it did demonstrate that there isn’t much juice behind the argument that pedophiles aren’t, by definition, child molesters. Pedantically that may be true, but pragmatically it’s a load of horseshit.

GrumpyOldNurse
GrumpyOldNurse
6 years ago

@ LBT – But, in that instance, Piers Anthony was making rape part of his art, and presenting it as OK. I’m so not OK with that. OTOH, I really like William Burroughs’ work (relax, I’m already in therapy) so maybe I’m just trying to justify my own dodgy ethical decisions.

@ theladyzombie – I think so many of them let themselves molest because they go through huge mental leaps to minimise the damage that they do. At least, any pedophiles I’ve ever met have had justifications out the wazoo.

wewereemergencies
wewereemergencies
6 years ago

@LBT I think I read your takedown of the creepy fandom-cult guy WHO IS STILL ACTIVE IN FANDOM ARRGH. Was it the one about how his portrayal of his DID is… not at all accurate? Because that was very good! The tumblr user had a similar name to yours, but I was unsure.

LBT
LBT
6 years ago

RE: theladyzombie

Ennnnh. Despite my rage kneejerk, I actually have no trouble believing that there are people who actually ARE attracted to children and just never act on it or tell anyone. (I mean, come on. Would YOU?) People who were just really unlucky in how they were wired and keep their mouths tight shut. I don’t know.

RE: GrumpyOldNurse

Enh, it’s a dodgy line. I’m never sure where to draw it.

LBT
LBT
6 years ago

RE: wewereemergencies

Yes! That was me! LB-Lee is my handle elsewhere on the Internet. Honestly, I should probably change it here as well…

Bina
Bina
6 years ago

The thing is, that whole “little girls look mature therefore it’s okay” is a bullshit smokescreen. What they want is to be allowed to pray on inexperienced, vulnerable children that they can exploit and abuse.
That’s what they want. Any prattling about “mature looking” girls is just a way to hide what they really want.

So. Effin’. TRUE!

I think a lot of the fillip in it for them lies in the fact that they get the so-called best of both worlds: the inexperience and vulnerability of an easy-to-manipulate child, juxtaposed with a prematurely “adult” body, complete with killer curves, that also provides them a legal “out”: “But officer, just look at her. I thought she was 18, because no 11-year-old looks like that!” Plausible deniability doesn’t get any more fucking cynical.

itsabeast
itsabeast
6 years ago

I think a lot of people wanting to make the distinction between having sex with <17 teens vs. preteens and younger are just saying the DEGREE of wrongness is different, not that the former isn't wrong. It's pointless, though–it's like they think the law and the overwhelming majority of people's opinion doesn't already reflect that. It's like making a detailed argument about how second-degree murder isn't the same as first-degree murder. EVERYONE KNOWS. Your spending eight paragraphs on it just might make me think you're be okay with second-degree murder though.

kittehserf MOD
kittehserf MOD
6 years ago

@LBT:

I’m just reading about NAMBLA – I’d heard the acronym before but didn’t know what it meant.

I am sorry but also envious. I knew about them for a long time!

A side-benefit of not living in the US, maybe!

@Flying Mouse:

I got back before the sanitation pickup! The last trace of Allen Ginsberg has left my home and is on its way to the landfill, which is where it belongs.

Huzzah! ::blows party whistle thingy::

@Binjabreel: kudos to your dad!

@leftwingfox: if it’s any consolation, I have fantasies that couldn’t be acted in a play situation, as well as shouldn’t be in real life.

@LBT again:

It just feels like a red herring to me, cassandrakitty. Who CARES whether someone who rapes a child is doing it out of attraction or some other reason? (Except for whoever is giving the perp treatment?) They’re still raping a child!

My take exactly. It’s the same as I said to Orion at the start of this: I do not give a flying fuck why someone is abusing children or wants to. I feel the same way as Gloria Steinem on the matter.

@zoon:

Irregardless, I still disagree with you about a lot of these.

I saw what you did there.

Alex
6 years ago

I was molested by my stepfather at age seven to twelve, and before that by some friends of my father when I was at most two and a half. I have a small scar on each inner thigh. I’ve had them as long as I can remember. I have no recollection of how I got them. Whatever they did traumatized me so much that when my Nana took my brother and I in, I used to scream at the top of my lungs whenever a new man came in. And that was pretty much the only time I made a sound at all for the first few months my Nana had us. VERY heated topic for me. It’s only recently that I’ve been able to accept that, okay, maybe there are people who feel attraction to children but never dwell on it or act on it, and those people aren’t evil. But that’s as far as I’m willing to go. I hate them. I don’t condone violence, or the death penalty, or torture, or anything like that, but when such a thing happens to a pedophile, I am not fucking sad.

What those men did to me left me with a lingering fear of big men with large hands all the way up to the age of twenty-four (two years ago). A fear I wasn’t even fully aware of until I took a chance and hooked up with such a man, and the experience was not only not bad, but enjoyable.

As a toddler living with my Nana, I developed rituals in the steps I took before going through a door…Unless I’m self-conscious, I still fucking do these. And even fourteen years after the last time my stepfather touched me, sometimes I still have nightmares about it. And sometimes (though very rare now) I wake up around 4 in the morning with a nameless fear I can’t describe, something I know and yet I don’t.

My current sexual partner is ten years older than me. The only reason he’s my sexual partner is because I didn’t know he was that much older than me when we met and by the time I realized it, I was already really comfortable with him because he talked to me on an equal level. Before him, I outright refused to date anyone more than five years older than me because I was afraid it would feel like dating someone who had authority over me.

So I’m just so fucking sick of hearing about how we should be sympathetic to pedophiles. Pedophilia isn’t a fucking mental illness, PTSD is!

I’m sick of hearing that it’s an orientation because sexual orientations don’t fucking hurt anyone! Child molestation does!

And I’m sick of hearing the misinterpretation of sexual assault being about power. Rather than understanding that it’s an exertion of power by the powerful, some describe pedophiles as “looking for power” because they “lost power”, often because “they were molested themselves as children”. FUCK. YOU. I was molested. I don’t molest. I would kill myself before ever doing such a thing. And fuck anyone who tries to make me sympathize with a pedophile. THEY DON’T DESERVE MY SYMPATHY. One person tried to tell me that the shame pedophiles experience causes them to avoid seeking help. BOO-FUCKING-HOO! They deserve the shame, and they should do whatever they can to not molest children regardless of what shame they might experience for making their thoughts and/or actions known.

/rant

On a less ragey note, I just want to say I’m glad most of the regulars here seem to see this issue the way I do. I know not all feminists do, and that’s something that really stings for me. Because I see feminism as the only movement with the ability to stop this, so when feminists whose opinions I otherwise respect start saying it’s okay for pedophiles to dwell on their fantasies about molesting fucking children, it kind of upsets me and I usually just don’t engage. So thanks all, not Orion, though. Even with zir explanation, I’m still pretty skeeved out by those comments.

LBT
LBT
6 years ago

Alex, have you ever read Something Terrible? It’s a short, autobiographical comic from a professional comics artist on his own molestation history, and how superheroes and Batman in particular helped him. It’s hard, but not explicit, and it was very moving and good for me to see it.

Alex
6 years ago

@LBT,

I have now. Thanks. 🙂

kittehserf MOD
kittehserf MOD
6 years ago

Alex, all the hugs. I know I’ve said that before, but here’s a fresh-baked batch. (Take not, hugs are the only things I know how to bake.)

And I’m sick of hearing the misinterpretation of sexual assault being about power. Rather than understanding that it’s an exertion of power by the powerful, some describe pedophiles as “looking for power” because they “lost power”, often because “they were molested themselves as children”. FUCK. YOU. I was molested. I don’t molest. I would kill myself before ever doing such a thing.

THIS. So much this. My beloved was molested as a child. He did not repeat that behaviour, and if he’d wanted to, who would have stopped him, with his rank and power?

GrumpyOldNurse
GrumpyOldNurse
6 years ago

@Alex – hugs, if you want them. QFT about the ‘regaining power’ nonsense being nonsensical. After some of the things I’ve seen, I often think there is a much more simple and horrifying answer – some people are just plain evil. Hurting just pleases them, especially if the victim is small and helpless. I rejected this conclusion for years, but it is the only thing that fits sometimes.

@LBT – thanks for that link:-)

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

@ Alex

Everything you’re saying reminds me so much of what happened to my mother. Watching the effects that she was never able to shake off and that haunted her for her entire life is a big part of the reason why I have absolutely zero tolerance for a lot of the shit that’s been brought up here. My sympathy and support is with the victims, not the predators, and the moment someone crosses that line from private thought to action then I simply do not care what the consequences for them may be, no matter how harsh those consequences are.

We’re supposed to be feminists, people. Support the victims, not the predators.