You may have run across an image macro going around the internet recently featuring a picture of YouTube ranter and sometime Men’s Rights ally The Amazing Atheist – aka Terroja or TJ Kinkaid – and an appalling quote, supposedly from him, arguing that MRAs should campaign to lower the age of consent, because “[n]ature already has an age of consent. That age is approximately 12-13, otherwise known as the onset of puberty.”
I didn’t post about the quote, appalling as it is, because I couldn’t find any proof that Mr. Kincaid actually wrote or said it; I even searched several of Mr. Kincaid’s books and a document entitled “The Somewhat Complete Ravings of TJ Kincaid” to no avail. Apparently no one else has been able to find the quote either.
If this quote was fabricated, I’m a little puzzled as to why, because Kincaid has actually said very similar things before. Given the confusion about the quote, I thought it might be worth noting what we know he has said on the topic.
In a 2006 posting on a Marilyn Manson fan site, linked to in RationalWiki’s profile of him, a self-identified “atheist libertarian” calling himself Terroja argued that
Having pedophilic attractions doesn’t mean you automatically go out and start molesting kids. From the time I was 14 to the time I was about 19, I used to have extreme pedophilic fantasies, and I somehow managed to never even come close to acting on them. I think with my brain, not my penis.
I do think, however, the pedophilia is unfairly persecuted in today’s society.
I think the difference in punishment between child rapists and child molestors should be more significant, with molestors perhaps simply attending mandatory therapy for their first offense. I also think that the age of sexual consent should be lowered to 12 or 13.
My stance is not designed to be controversial or to offend anyone. I only want human beings to understand that the law must work within the parameters of human nature, not in defiance of it.
In a recent posting on his blog, Kincaid admits that this indeed is something he once believed:
The age of consent thing is based on a post I made on an internet forum when I was like 20. And it was actually a pretty popular sentiment on the boards at that time. Hell, it was a popular sentiment on the internet in general at that time. It was also, I’m sad to say, an opinion that my father held.
After experiencing another decade on planet earth, I realize how horribly misguided that opinion was and is. I think that maybe it’s not so horrible for kids that age to begin sexual exploration with one another, but it’s definitely wrong for an adult to engage is sex with someone that young and inexperienced.
The “everyone else was a pedophile in 2006” argument is not exactly a convincing one, and it’s worth noting that Kincaid “confessed” his attraction towards underage girls in his self-published 2007 book “Scumbag: Musings of a Subhuman” as well, writing that
I think 14-year-old girls are hot. (Yeah, so does everyone else, but I actually admit it)
That’s what pedophiles would like to believe, but it’s not actually true.
Also, in “The Somewhat Complete Ravings of TJ Kincaid,” which seems to be a compilation of writings from several of his books, we find the following passage:
Teenage girls are annoying because they go out into public dressed like sluts and then if you look at their massive titties there is a segment of our society that will happily declare you a pedophile for “oggling those poor children.” Children, my ass. Children don’t have D cups. Children don’t have big, luscious round asses crammed into designer jeans.
For what it’s worth, the word is “ogling,” not “oggling.”
Even more troubling than these quotes is the fact that Kincaid also claimed at one point that he “dated” a 14-year-old when he was 23.
In his recent posting, he insists that he was only joking:
As for this nonsense about me dating a 14-year-old when I was 23, I was actually mocking a friend of mine who was over 30 and was macking on some 16-year-old girl. The sad fact is that when I was 23, I was single and pussyless. And I was too timid and frightened to even approach a girl sexually, let alone one who could wind me up in prison.
I have no trouble believing that he was lying about having an underage girlfriend, but his explanation doesn’t seem to jibe with what he – or someone claiming to be him – said in the very strange (and not altogether safe for work) video that seems to be the source for what Kincaid calls this “rumor” about him.
Roughly 30 minutes into the video, which shows a live BlogTV session between YouTube personality thefakesagan and some guests in an internet chatroom, we see someone identified as theamazingatheist declare flatly in the chat session that “as a 23-year-old I dated a 14-year-old briefly.”
When the expletive-spewing thefakesagan asks him what it was that led him to stop “dating” the 14-year-old so quickly, theamazingatheist replies “fear of her dad murdering me,” adding in a followup comment that “he was a Marine, actually.”
When the host, burping and fiddling with a bass guitar, asks theamazingatheist if he actually felt “an emotional bond with this 14-year-old bitch,” themazingatheist replies “I felt an emotional bond with her pussy.”
“Sorry,” he types a few moments later, “I’m a sociopath, useless in the ways of love.”
The host then spends a few moments fumbling with his instrument, trying ineptly to work out the bassline to Michael Jackson’s “Beat It.” “You better run, you better do what you’re told,” he sings, “TJ’s in the back room fucking a 14-year-old.”
The conversation moves on, and I think I will too.
But now that I’ve gotten hold of some of TJ’s masterworks, I think I’ll have to see what else is hiding within them. I suspect I’ll be posting about that shortly.
Kitteh,
I didn’t see your request that I drop this until after my last post. I apologize.
That has never been what happens to most pedophiles, even if you limit the word purely to people with a diagnosable paraphilia.
How to Pronounce Ephebophile:
http://youtu.be/TB9fwJDweaU
Why does the end screen of that video have a link to a video about how to make cupcakes that look like cheeseburgers? Normally I can see the logic with the things YouTube links to, but this time I’m lost.
I get the fake cheeseburger link too. And skydiving cats, which sounds awful.
“Skydiving cats claw the hell out of your arm and then pee on your head, and guess what? It’s your own fault for making them skydive, you asshole.”
“Children don’t have D cups. Children don’t have big, luscious round asses crammed into designer jeans.”
seriously? what world do these people live in?It may have been a while but when I was in school most 12-14year old girls definitely did not have any of those things.
they looked like pre-teens and acted like pre-teens and didn’t start looking grown up at all until they were borderline legal!and they want to lower the age of consent simply because few of them hit puberty earlier? what about the mental component? seriously what the hell?
Cassandra (is it alright if I respond if I’m addressed directly, Kittehserf?),
I’m sure you’re right. Even though I have a mood disorder, I’m sure I also have all kinds of media-influenced ideas and misconceptions about psychiatry generally an in relation to criminal justice specifically. I’m not personally familiar with any kind of inpatient care and I don’t have any familiarity with data on how people diagnosed with paraphilias are usually treated. I even momentarily visualized the iconic padded white room, even though I hope those are a thing of the past and there wouldn’t be a reason to put a pedophile in one anyway. Nothing in that whole constellation of associations, ideas, myths, or factoids is terribly relevant to the issue of men coercing or manipulating teenagers into sex. I assumed that the word “pedophile” would trigger those unhelpful associations for other people, which was the basis of my objection. If that’s just my idiosyncrasy than I guess there’s no problem.
The thing about the treatment of pedophilia is that the majority of those who are in any sort of treatment program for pedophilia ended up there because they were convicted of abusing a child. Nobody is running around rounding up people who have thoughts about being attracted to children but who haven’t acted on them and involuntarily committing them. Given that, my response to the idea that the people in those programs are being treated unfairly because they’re mentally ill is “pull the other one, it has bells on”, which is why my responses so far in this thread have been rather harsh.
@ wolf
I had D cups by the time I was 10 or 11, so I feel like my sudden urge to punch the person who wrote that in the face is somewhat excusable.
saintnick86
Power and control. They figure they’ll get a young women, and all the power in the “relationship”. No having to worry about the female getting all uppity…
understandable. sorry
Eh, no worries, it’s not your fault that creeps are a thing that exists.
Orion – what cassandra said above.
a world where creeps don’t exist……is it bad I’m having a hard time imagining that?
It’s often hard to imagine things that one has never seen or experienced.
Jo’s link definitely wins.
Also I think the skydiving cats thing was actually an ad, wasn’t it? CGI? Although I am pretty sure that there are legit skydiving dogs.
It’s not that they “are attracted” (read feel predatory toward) to 14 years old children because their body’s look mature. I’m too repulsed by it to even fully quote that “Children don’t have” horror, but if the argument should be that AA (and others like him) is attracted to mature looking body parts*? There’s plenty of adult women who look mature and have D cups. So, it’s not like they have to look at children to satisfy their desires.
The thing is, that whole “little girls look mature therefore it’s okay” is a bullshit smokescreen. What they want is to be allowed to pray on inexperienced, vulnerable children that they can exploit and abuse.
That’s what they want. Any prattling about “mature looking” girls is just a way to hide what they really want.
*Obviously, just objectifying children and sexualizing their bodies is not not enough for him. He had to reduce them to parts.
When I was 11 I *looked* fourteen-fifteenish (started puberty at 8) and I’m so glad I don’t share a continent with TAA. Seriously, I’m amazed and terrified that he has yet to understand feminist, how-to-not-be-a-child-molester, and consent 101 and been on the internet longer then I have. Actually, take that and apply it to reddit and 4chan in general. Did people here read about 4channers putting gore and porn into safe tags on tumblr? How can these people live with themselves? The mind, it boggles. I saw someone here mention brain bleach… I could really use a swig.
Orion, there were some interesting points in what you wrote, but you need to understand that when you start talking about the distinction between pedophiles and ephebophiles, you set off a lot of people’s creep alarms. Basically, the people who care about distinguishing between pedophilia / ephebophilia and the people who think raping children with breasts is not as bad as raping children without breasts are almost always identical, so your comment needed far clearer disclaimers that you think the distinction is BS, ideally your disclaimer needed to (a) specifically address that hot-button issue (b) come before you touch on the puberty issue and (c) be repeated several times.
I have a strong stomach and pride myself on reading people’s comments carefully and not jumping to conclusions, but even I was tempted to skip over your 3rd – 9th paragraphs once your second paragraph ended with a sentence defining pedophilia in exactly the same way that Amazing Atheist types do.
I don’t think that’s what Orion was saying. I think the thrust of the argument was that people like TAA are choosing to be attracted to pubescent children, whereas a “true” pedophile is unalterably attracted to prepubescent children.
I think that’s a distinction without a difference. I know that people who are sexually attracted to prepubescents say this is an uncontrollable urge, similar to homosexuality, and that we should be sympathetic toward their plight. However, this totally ignores the fact that many men who do sexually unethical things claim their sexual urges are overpowering and they have no control over their actions. I’ve heard similar stories from men who are attracted to adults, that their drive toward sex (with other adults) is so uncontrollable and they think about it all the time, and etc. etc. and therefore I should be sympathetic toward them betraying spouses who thought they were in a monogamous relationship with a series of other partners. I have no doubt that some self-described “ephebophiles” also feel like their sexual attraction toward pubescent children is uncontrollable, that they dream about these 11-year-olds all the time and can’t get these children out of their minds.
So I believe that Orion was saying that “ephebophiles” should feel bad because they are choosing to be attracted to pubescent children. I agree with that. However, pedophiles should also feel bad, so there’s not really any point in drawing this line.
What difference does it make to the kid who’s being abused whether their abuser is wired to only have sexual feelings towards children or whether they’re an opportunistic predator? None at all.
@Greebo
I’ve always got the feeling that they actually *do* understand, but are too entitled and self-centered to actually give a shit.
A 12 year old with breasts and a 12 year old without breasts are both 12. I feel this shouldn’t really need to be stated.
If you are not attracted to adults and only want to do sex at children TOO FUCKING BAD. I feel this shouldn’t really need to be stated either.
Quoting Jo’s entire comment because it perfectly sums up the problems with Orion’s post.