You may have run across an image macro going around the internet recently featuring a picture of YouTube ranter and sometime Men’s Rights ally The Amazing Atheist ā aka Terroja or TJ Kinkaid ā and an appalling quote, supposedly from him, arguing that MRAs should campaign to lower the age of consent, because ā[n]ature already has an age of consent. That age is approximately 12-13, otherwise known as the onset of puberty.ā
I didn’t post about the quote, appalling as it is, because I couldn’t find any proof that Mr. Kincaid actually wrote or said it; I even searched several of Mr. Kincaid’s books and a document entitled āThe Somewhat Complete Ravings of TJ Kincaidā to no avail. Apparently no one else has been able to find the quote either.
If this quote was fabricated, I’m a little puzzled as to why, because Kincaid has actually said very similar things before. Given the confusion about the quote, I thought it might be worth noting what we know he has said on the topic.
In a 2006 posting on a Marilyn Manson fan site, linked to in RationalWiki’s profile of him, a self-identified āatheist libertarianā calling himself Terroja argued that
Having pedophilic attractions doesn’t mean you automatically go out and start molesting kids. From the time I was 14 to the time I was about 19, I used to have extreme pedophilic fantasies, and I somehow managed to never even come close to acting on them. I think with my brain, not my penis.
I do think, however, the pedophilia is unfairly persecuted in today’s society.
I think the difference in punishment between child rapists and child molestors should be more significant, with molestors perhaps simply attending mandatory therapy for their first offense. I also think that the age of sexual consent should be lowered to 12 or 13.
My stance is not designed to be controversial or to offend anyone. I only want human beings to understand that the law must work within the parameters of human nature, not in defiance of it.
In a recent posting on his blog, Kincaid admits that this indeed is something he once believed:
The age of consent thing is based on a post I made on an internet forum when I was like 20. And it was actually a pretty popular sentiment on the boards at that time. Hell, it was a popular sentiment on the internet in general at that time. It was also, Iām sad to say, an opinion that my father held.
After experiencing another decade on planet earth, I realize how horribly misguided that opinion was and is. I think that maybe itās not so horrible for kids that age to begin sexual exploration with one another, but itās definitely wrong for an adult to engage is sex with someone that young and inexperienced.Ā
The āeveryone else was a pedophile in 2006ā argument is not exactly a convincing one, and it’s worth noting that Kincaid āconfessedā his attraction towards underage girls in his self-published 2007 book āScumbag: Musings of a Subhumanā as well, writing that
I think 14-year-old girls are hot. (Yeah, so does everyone else, but I actually admit it)
That’s what pedophiles would like to believe, but it’s not actually true.
Also, in āThe Somewhat Complete Ravings of TJ Kincaid,ā which seems to be a compilation of writings from several of his books, we find the following passage:
Teenage girls are annoying because they go out into public dressed like sluts and then if you look at their massive titties there is a segment of our society that will happily declare you a pedophile for āoggling those poor children.ā Children, my ass. Children don’t have D cups. Children don’t have big, luscious round asses crammed into designer jeans.
For what it’s worth, the word is āogling,ā not āoggling.ā
Even more troubling than these quotes is the fact that Kincaid also claimed at one point that he ādatedā a 14-year-old when he was 23.
In his recent posting, he insists that he was only joking:
As for this nonsense about me dating a 14-year-old when I was 23, I was actually mocking a friend of mine who was over 30 and was macking on some 16-year-old girl. The sad fact is that when I was 23, I was single and pussyless. And I was too timid and frightened to even approach a girl sexually, let alone one who could wind me up in prison.
I have no trouble believing that he was lying about having an underage girlfriend, but his explanation doesn’t seem to jibe with what he ā or someone claiming to be him ā said in the very strange (and not altogether safe for work) video that seems to be the source for what Kincaid calls this ārumorā about him.
Roughly 30 minutes into the video, which shows a live BlogTV session between YouTube personality thefakesagan and some guests inĀ an internet chatroom, we see someone identified as theamazingatheist declare flatly in the chat session that āas a 23-year-old I dated a 14-year-old briefly.ā
When the expletive-spewing thefakesagan asks him what it was that led him to stop ādatingā the 14-year-old so quickly, theamazingatheist replies āfear of her dad murdering me,ā adding in a followup comment that āhe was a Marine, actually.ā
When the host, burping and fiddling with a bass guitar, asks theamazingatheist if he actually felt “an emotional bond with this 14-year-old bitch,ā themazingatheist replies āI felt an emotional bond with her pussy.ā
āSorry,ā he types a few moments later, āI’m a sociopath, useless in the ways of love.ā
The host then spends a few moments fumbling with his instrument, trying ineptly to work out the bassline to Michael Jackson’s āBeat It.ā āYou better run, you better do what you’re told,ā he sings, āTJ’s in the back room fucking a 14-year-old.ā
The conversation moves on, and I think I will too.
But now that I’ve gotten hold of some of TJ’s masterworks, I think I’ll have to see what else is hiding within them. I suspect I’ll be posting about that shortly.
My daughter had her first period at age 8, third grade. Typical third grade little kid. I taught middle school for a couple of years…twelve and thirteen are still just little kids in bodies that have suddenly expanded, and they’re trying to make sense of it all. None of these kids need some adult trying to take advantage of them.
Pervs who think menstruation = girls ready for sex? Creepy and icky.
I had breasts by the fifth grade.
Fuck this pedophile piece of shit.
I can well believe this, though.
**barfs in mouth**
They can lie to themselves all they want about 12-year-olds’ alleged sexual maturity, but everyone knows what they are really attracted to is vulnerability and inexperience. That’s a perv for you, though, they know it’s easier to push boundaries and ultimately abuse someone who is essentially a child.
Gosh, it’s almost like these atheist dudebros know nothing about the neurological changes that occur in adolescents, which make them particularly vulnerable: http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/the-teen-brain-still-under-construction/index.shtml (as a for example but there’s a lot of research that’s been published in this area).
In particular, there’s issues with adolescents not being able to understand consequences, particularly longer term consequences, of their actions. It’s my strong personal opinion that this should have an effect on decisions around adolescents being able to have mens rea. I’m not the only one to have this concern: http://www.americanbar.org/content/dam/aba/publishing/criminal_justice_section_newsletter/crimjust_juvjus_Adolescence.authcheckdam.pdf
So having adult males act as predators towards adolescents is even creepier than it might be if one only considered age differences and life experience, and ignored the repercussions of adolescent neurological development.
Even their pretence that menstruation = ready to breed = ready for sex is bullshit. It’s one of the signs that sexual maturation has begun, not the end point. Girls are nowhere near ready to start reproducing. Far from it: it drastically increases the chances of harm or death both to them and any children they have.
Did I live in some paraellel 2006 where the internet wasn’t clammoring for lowering the age of consent to 12? I think I would’ve remembered that.
And I looked at some of his books while trying to find that quote too. David’s going to have to put up a few trigger warnings if he starts posting about his stuff. Lots of misogyny and even some bonus racism and climate change denial.
Nope nope nope nope NOPE. It was a “popular sentiment” only among creepers and pervs. Who, sadly, are far from hard to find on the Internets, even now.
And godDAMN do I ever hate the justification-by-normalization thing that those creepers so love to do. “Lots of other guys feel the same way, therefore it’s correct!” NOPE.
Bina – you notice it never works the other way, either. “Lots of women do not like being hit on, groped, perved, demeaned, etc, etc” somehow doesn’t count as an argument for teh menz to change their behaviour.
Kittehserf
Nope, it only works with men. It’s noraml for guys to do that stuff, so to say anything against it is the criminalization of male sexuality.
Kittehs: Yup, I noticed that. Always, ALWAYS the woman gets blamed for (a) “asking for it”, and then (b) being such a humorless Miss Priss when she gets what she “asked for”. Apparently, existing in public while female is Asking For It…who knew?
Meanwhile, I’m sure the Underwhelming Assholist will be pleased to know that he has something in common with an Afghan mullah, as far as age and consent go. (Trigger warning: violent rape, graphic medical description of injuries sustained by a tiny 10-year-old.)
…I just…I just.
Fuck this guy and all the ones like him who want to rape children and abuse people’s trust and pretend that because there are enough of them to form a club that they aren’t terrible people. Just the way he talks about teenage girls makes me sick, it’s just predatory and gross. ‘OH SHE HAS AN ADULT BODY BUT A CHILD’S MIND SO I CAN WARP HER AND ABUSE HER AND SHE WON’T CATCH ON.’ Just…ugh. And 12? Is a kid. Any adult who is having sex with one is a child rapist. Oh, wait, no- *barfs up some evo psych pedo apologia*
Sorry. I’m a little angry. I’m not even looking at that link, Bina, because then I might cry.
Bina: What’s even worse is that the girl may likely receive no justice for any of this, as what happened to her is considered her fault by her family. If Western standards were in play, every adult in this scenario would be in prison for a very long time.
I don’t blame you…I did, myself. And now her family is talking of honor-killing her because she’s no longer “marriageable”. What the everlasting fuck…she is a CHILD. If you’re going to kill anyone over the shame of this, let it be the mullah. He’s the one with the lousy moral judgment, after all…
I didn’t look at the link either, Bina. I thought it might be that case and I saw enough about that on Pharyngula not to want to read more.
Most rapists think all men rape too. They are wrong.
Brain bleach: I found a replacement for the feminist hamster the manospherians love to talk about.
This is a much more accurate depiction of the inside of my brain.
http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s–JaA3vZRc–/c_fit,fl_progressive,q_80,w_636/kkibkhgqzdwwnfv8nrqn.gif
WWTH: That washer looks very, very familiar. And so does the cat, to be honest…we had a bunch of half-feral tabbies and calicos a couple of houses ago.
Oh what a silly kitty! š
Ah, so that’s how all the cat fur gets on my laundered clothes, before I hang them to dry.
@Lids, Hugs if you want them. TAA is an asshat.
Pallygirl, ha! You really think a mere washing machine has the power to get rid of cat furs? They are always there, furever and ever, fur without end, amen.
I remember the last thing this guy tried posting to TGWTG as the Distressed Watcher. “Top Ten Gayest Music Videos”, God he’s awful.
It’s awful how many people see straight, white, male and christian privilege and are happy to keep what’s convenient to them.
I have some issues with the treatment of pedophilia in this post and thread. I’m going to start with what might look like dictionary-troll pedantry, but I promise I have a real point.
The Amazing Atheist and the other folks covered in this post use the word pedophile for shock value, probably deliberately inaccurately in some cases, and possibly in ignorance in others. Their muddying the waters has carried over into the conversation here, which feels somewhat off point. The Amazing Atheist is a repulsive person, but despite his own claim it doesn’t sound like he’s a pedophile. Pedophiles are people attracted mostly or exclusively to prepubescent children.
The Amazing Atheist doesn’t seem interested in prepubescent children, he’s interested in adolescents. His language lingers obsessively on “breasts” and “asses” and other developmental markers of pubescence. That kind of “natural age of consent” bullshit is horrible, but by definition it can’t be pedophilia.
That’s an important distinction to make because the other thing about pedophilia is that it’s a mental disorder, probably biologically sourced. Pedophiles may be haunted by thoughts they find morally repulsive but can’t get rid of; some take drugs to suppress them. Some of these MRAs like to call themselves “ephebephiles,” a word that apparently means “attraction to adolescents,” but the analogy they’re making doesn’t make sense. These men aren’t unable to control their thoughts, they’re not incapable of physical attraction to adult women, and they’re not taking drugs to suppress their libidos and get rid of troubling thoughts. They don’t have a disorder; they’re neurotypical men who happen to be assholes.
I think it’s important to keep this in mind because these MRA types benefit from deliberately muddying the distinction between illness and doucheness, or between “deviant” thoughts (which may be involuntary) and “deviant” behaviors (which are willingly chosen).
In the case of “the amazing atheist,” he says that had “pedophilic fantasies” from age 14 to 19, but I don’t believe that’s true. The youngest girl he mentions being attracted to is 14; he doesn’t mention young children. Also, pedophilia is a sexual orientation; one doesn’t “grow out of it.” one does tend to be more attracted to people closer to one’s own age. It sounds to me as though what he means when he says he had “extreme pedophile fantasies” is that from when he was 14 to when he was 19, he thoughts 14 year olds was hot. That’s not a disorder and it’s nothing a neurotypical person wouldn’t experience.
So why does he call himself a pedophile, a child rapist, and all these other shock terms? I have two theories. Perhaps he actually thinks that’s what he legally is or would be. We all use “pedophilia” as a shorthand for various sex crimes, as though you could be arrested, charged, and convicted of “being a pedophile.” He probably doesn’t know that most age of consent crimes are not considered “child rape.” Crimes involving adolescent minors and young adults are usually “sexual abuse” or even just “unlawful intercourse.” I find it darkly funny that most of these “lower the age of consent” guys don’t even know the laws. Many of them act as though the age of consent were 18 with no exceptions, when in fact it’s 16 in more than half of America, sometimes with romeo and juliet laws as well.
The other possibility is that he knows full well that he’s exaggerating wildly and is doing so disingenously in order to appear victimized. He’s thinking someting like: “A 17 year old hitting on a 14 year old may be creepy asshole, but it’s a little much to call him a potential child rapist. I’ll call myself a child rapist to demonstrate the follies of POLITICAL CORRECTNESS GONE MAD, and when people realize that I and men like me are not child rapists hopefully they will forget that we ARE creepy assholes.”
Anyway, I suspect that when he was 20 and wrote in his book that “everyone” thinks 14 year old girls are hot but is afraid to admit it, he probably wasn’t talking about or even remembering the existence of 40 year old men. I think he’s sufficiently narcissistic to think that “everyone” means “20 year old men.” And in that context he’s not completely wrong. I don’t think there’s anything developmentally or neurologically abnormal in a 19 year old who finds a 14 year old attractive. There may well be something morally deficient in someone who pursues them. Let’s focus on calling creepers creepers rather than calling them mentally ill and risking being proved wrong.