So there’s a hilariously alarmist post in the Men’s Rights subreddit at the moment in which one concerned MRA called aegorrivers offers his ideas on How to avoid paternity fraud and toxic relationships in general while still reproducing.
The post starts off with a lot of nonsense about allegedly rampant paternity fraud – indeed, it’s such clear nonsense that even a few MRAs feel obliged to correct him in the comments – and then moves on to describe just how terrible life is for men who (horror of horrors!) find themselves in relationships with women:
On top of this, relationships in general seem to be a problem for men, as men are routinely arrested over false domestic violence and rape claims, even when they are the ones being beaten and raped. Divorce courts are heavily biased in favor of women, and men usually lose custody, end up paying alimony and child support, are thrown in jail with serial killers and rapists and are left to be raped by the inmates if they cannot pay.
He concludes that the only reason men are willing to put up with all this is that
women are the gatekeepers to reproduction. This is the key power that women have always had over men, and they will continue to have it as long as we continue to allow ourselves to suffer just to maybe have the chance to reproduce (assuming she doesn’t cuckold you).
Weird. For a bunch of guys whose only interest in women allegedly stems from a desire to make little copies of themselves, (straight, cis) Men’s Rights Redditors sure spend a lot of time trying to figure out how not to pay for or indeed have anything to do with any children that might result from their (ugh) amorous adventures.
Be that as it may, aegorrivers has a solution: Hire a cheap surrogate mom in India!
With this reproductive strategy, you not only avoid all of the hazards of relationships and divorce, but also can guarantee that the child is your own child (put a condition in the contract that says that all payments are on the condition of a positive paternity test), get your pick of the litter in terms of attractiveness and intelligence (just pick an awesome egg donor!), have no problems with mothers trying to alienate your children as the mothers will have no right to them (some states do try to pull shenanigans on this one, but just don’t hire a woman in that state and go to other states to create economic pressure on the states that do this).
But it’s the next part that really got my attention. Emphasis added:
There is even research that is currently attempting to develop an artificial womb. This has succeeded with goats. (http://abcnews.go.com/US/straight-single-men-wanting-kids-turn-surrogacy/story?id=16520916). Perhaps in the future, we won’t even need surrogate mothers.
Goats? That’s right. You heard it here first: MRAs are planning on raising an army of goat children, hideous monsters that are half-MRA, half goat.
And aegorrivers, like some MRA Dr. Moreau, wants to be in the thick of it:
I also will be supporting the artificial womb research by attempting to pursue a PhD in a lab that does this work. I encourage all MRAs to pursue STEM degrees and do this as well. …
This has lifted a great weight off of my shoulders. I no longer feel as much pressure to conform to society and don’t feel as bad about not being able to attract women. I think this might be the key to ripping their power away from them.
Clearly, feminists need to come up with a way to counter the coming MRA man-goat apocalypse.
Might I suggest … Catpeople?
NOTE: Thanks to the AgainstMensRights subreddit for highlighting aegorrivers’ post, though the AMRers don’t seem to have realized the full implications of his argument.
NOTE TO EXTREMELY LITERAL MRAs: I’m aware that aegorrivers is not literally advocating raising an army of goat children. I am pretending that I have misconstrued his already silly argument for comedic effect. Likewise, I am not literally advocating that feminists start breeding an army of human-cat hybrids.
@Sir Bodsworth Rugglesby III
Given the frequency of MRAs committing the naturalistic fallacy and their resolute failure to grasp the basics of evolutionary theory, it was my impression that they were concerned with reproduction in order to REPLICATE their GENES so that they could WIN at EVOLUTION.
If you don’t reproduce, you’re a failure as a man and a biological organism! I don’t think actual children and the raising thereof have entered into their thoughts very much.
@zoonechonlogon:
Yet, oddly enough, actually rearing young is a huge evolutionary thing for organisms like (gasp) people! Replicating your genes does no good if your offspring don’t replicate their genes at some point in the future.
Why again do MRAs and MGTOWs think we shouldn’t mix them up? If he wants a kid but not a wife, that’s fine. But he wants that out of some sort of revenge fantasy. He thinks we’ll be sorry for not fucking him if he goes ahead and procreates without us.
I agree that these guys never seem to realize that kids are their own separate human beings.
How come no one’s jumped in to say he’s just kidding? Fruit hanging too low?
From the reddit OP:
This is Bittersteel, isn’t it?
Woody: “How are we to understand the thought processes of a chicken? They have no way of communicating things of this nature to us. Do we even have evidence that a chicken DID cross a road?”
Also, I’m totally cool with losing my spot in the gene pool. Evolution can carry on just fine without my contribution.
I really don’t buy the idea that there are certain superior people who must breed to keep humanity from collapsing due to horrible genetics. Traits, genetics, and environmental effects are way more complicated than that! Also, I have even higher doubts that if some people were genetically special in a good way, then these guys would be them.
Somehow, I suspect that a detailed explanation for why eugenics is terrible biology would whoosh right over these guys heads.
I say we get behind this plan, too. Then the ones who really feel this way about women can just leave us all alone! Forever! This is the win-win situation we’ve all been looking for IMHO. Let’s help those guys get to college and make this happen! What should we call the college fund?
Huh. Apparently, this experiment has been going on for years, as evidenced by this:
@cassandrakitty: Wait, how would we tell the difference between them and the MRAs we have now?
The smell.
Okay, so it’s not that much different, but goats have it to attract members of the opposite sex…
Phoenician, did you miss that last body of text?
“NOTE TO EXTREMELY LITERAL MRAs: I’m aware that aegorrivers is not literally advocating raising an army of goat children. I am pretending that I have misconstrued his already silly argument for comedic effect. Likewise, I am not literally advocating that feminists start breeding an army of human-cat hybrids.”
“men are routinely arrested over false domestic violence and rape claims, even when they are the ones being beaten and raped. Divorce courts are heavily biased in favor of women, and men usually lose custody, end up paying alimony and child support, are thrown in jail with serial killers and rapists and are left to be raped by the inmates if they cannot pay.”
I don’t think that’s how life works. Men can get a 50/50 chance of gaining custody of their children if they just ask or/and have more time with them.
“women are the gatekeepers to reproduction. This is the key power that women have always had over men, and they will continue to have it as long as we continue to allow ourselves to suffer just to maybe have the chance to reproduce (assuming she doesn’t cuckold you).”
Translation: I hate it that women have the same choices that I do. I’m oppressed because women are no longer are.
“have no problems with mothers trying to alienate your children as the mothers will have no right to them”
Hypocrisy much?
David futrelle
“Goats? That’s right. You heard it here first: MRAs are planning on raising an army of goat children, hideous monsters that are half-MRA, half goat.”
Oh no! This is baahaad! (Sorry)
“I also will be supporting the artificial womb research by attempting to pursue a PhD in a lab that does this work. I encourage all MRAs to pursue STEM degrees and do this as well. …
I think this might be the key to ripping their power away from them.”
Mgtow/MRAS GO FAR AWAY! DO NOT get girlfriend/wife, DO NOT BREED, Do not pass go and DO NOT collect $200! You go away now! Shoo! Seriously, I thought these guys don’t care about children.
@ zoon echo logon — Hadn’t thought of that. I’m never sure how much evopsych people are genuine believers and how much it’s a case of “my desire to have sex isn’t emotional, it’s rational”. With a side order of “my disdain for women isn’t misogyny it’s science” thrown in for good measure.
I don’t think that’s how life works. Men can get a 50/50 chance of gaining custody of their children and/or have more visitation time with them if they just ask.
Is what I meant to say.
Phoenician, did you miss that last body of text?
Too busy dealing with the trauma of him failing to include Nastassja Kinski in the wall of photos.
“I think this might be the key to ripping their power away from them.”
Oh now I get it. Just using children as a weapon to get back at women… But how?
@Woody: Yes, what David clearly needed to do was to address each and every point aeggorivers makes in a serious and totally rational manner. Because that’s clearly what was called for when a guy who cares nothing about caring for a child’s well-being expects to reproduce anyway.
That way, you could ignore those arguments instead and go on about how Paulie is awesome and totally not a hack.
Would half-goat babies come with their own nannies?
The OP’s plan sounds mustache-twirlingly nefarious, but there’s no way it would work in the real world. India has recently taken steps to ban single parents from using surrogates. In the US, an MRA would most likely have to go through an agency if he wanted the most rigorous legal protections. Agencies are pretty selective about prospective parents. Reputable ones require a phone interview plus essays about your infertility history, why you’re choosing to use a surrogate, any message you want to pass along to the potential surrogate/donor, if/when/what you plan to tell the child about their origins. “I want to get revenge on females, xerox my precious DNA, and put minimal effort into raising the kid” isn’t going to cut it. With many agencies, the surrogate/donor also sees the recipient’s answers and communicates indirectly through the agency. She has to feel comfortable with the recipient. There’s a lot of competition for relatively few donors, so no, you don’t automatically get “the pick of the litter”, to use the OP’s lovely terminology.
There’s also the expense: anywhere from $25K up to well into six figures just for the base fee, not including donor evaluation, attorney fees, psych history, physical screening, hormone testing, the IVF/IUI cycle. Lather, rinse, and repeat if multiple cycles are needed. There’s also the costs of pregnancy and delivery if a surrogate is used. Health insurance covers very little, if any, of this.
I get so sick and tired of the MRA fantasy that they can use assisted reproduction to do an end run around their imaginary Darwinian obstacles. Having kids isn’t revenge. Sperm banks and donor agencies aren’t idiots. They screen all parties very, very carefully and take every precaution to prevent litigation, deception, and heartbreak. If they suspect the resulting child will be maltreated or neglected, they will exercise their right to refuse to do business. It’s their reputation on the line,
Besides, the whole process is complex, fraught, and expensive. Donors flake out, cycles go bust, the paperwork is tedious, the waiting is endless. You have to be not only determined, but intensely dream-driven, urged onward by hope and love and an aching desire for a family. Anger isn’t enough to impel someone past all those obstacles. You have to be willing to walk through fire for your future child(ren).
Given that most MRAs would cheerfully steal ice cream from a child in distress, I don’t see them having the gumption to get through even the early negotiation stages of surrogacy.
It’s a good thing hiring a surrogate, purchasing donated eggs from a desirable anonymous donor, having the in vitro fertilization procedure done, and then raising a child as a single parent all costs less than the $300 a month in child support that would surely bankrupt each and every MRA in the known universe.
What does this mean? Do they think men have no choice of who they have sex with? Or that women shouldn’t? Both?
I would really, REALLY like people to stop quoting Australia as their ‘OH GOD OH GOD LOOK IT’S EVEN HAPPENING THERE!’ It’s like. I’m aware we’re your remaining fantasy about a place one can be MANLY MEN with HOT WOMEN, but…
Paternity tests are entirely legal in Australia. There are legal and non-legal types – the legal one has specific rules around its collection so it can be used as admissible evidence in court. There is no ‘illegal’ test.
GO FOR YOUR LIFE, GUYS.
However, if you have served as a parent of a child who is not biologically yours, what is legally counted as important is the parenting, not the genetics. Thus, someone who is a step parent can successfully sue for access to a stepchild after separation because the thing that is valued is the parenting aspect.
Which means that if you bugger off after ten years of being a parent because you have just discovered the child is not biologically yours, you still have responsibilities. Because a child is a person.
Argh! XD
If artificial wombs are created, they will mostly be used by gay couples and couples where the woman cannot carry a child. They will also be used primarily by the middle and upperclasses. I can’t imagine many manospherian dudebros waking up at times that don’t exist to change a nappy and make up a bottle.
Hopefully they’ll give up on this idea as soon as they realize what a hassle it is and how much it costs. I’d really rather not see some poor kids end up in the sole custody of dudes who’ll probably forget to feed them, not to mention what they’ll do if the kid ever disagrees with them.
@Tessa
I don’t think they do a lot of thinking but it is both.