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The Feminists: A story so frighteningly impossible, you won't believe it wasn't collectively written by the Men's Rights subreddit

Uh oh.
Uh oh

 

A tiny group of gallant men (and “their women”) go underground to fight the evil gynocratic overlords. Is this the plot of a terrible dystopian potboiler from 1971, or a description of how most MRAs see themselves, and the world, today?

Turns out it’s both. I found this pic in the Blue Pill subreddit, and now I really, really want to read this book.

Here’s a book review from someone who did.

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katz
7 years ago

(That was directed at Ann, of course.)

Katz, did I miss the memo that I have to leave since I’m not Christian?

You don’t have to leave. But I should inform you that I secretly hate you.

kittehserf MOD
kittehserf MOD
7 years ago

How on earth did this get from people agreeing that predestination and inescapable one-way routes to Hell are abhorrent ideas to suddenly being picking on Christians in general? That’s sure now how the conversation I was having with Grumpy Old Man was going.

Re the space missionaries – I’m seeing the Muppets doing it, with the theme tune of Pigs In Space, of course.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
7 years ago

If we’re going to send a missionary into space I vote for Mog from Spaceballs. He’s his own best friend, after all, and intelligent aliens would probably like dogs a lot better than people.

Zolnier
Zolnier
7 years ago

Well this kind of dissolved fast.

Zolnier
Zolnier
7 years ago

Just realised that Narnia is essentially the Space Jesus scenario, except Aslan is awful.

katz
7 years ago

Just realised that Narnia is essentially the Space Jesus scenario, except Aslan is awful.

And Lewis’ space trilogy is literally the Space Jesus scenario.

Zolnier
Zolnier
7 years ago

Actually according to the second book, Jesus only incarnated on Earth, and after this point all new sapient races will be humanish, because fuck diversity in the universe. And don’t get me started on the third one.

katz
7 years ago

In the third one, among other things, C.S. Lewis decided to write a lesbian. It didn’t go well.

Zolnier
Zolnier
7 years ago

And Merlin, I think it says a lot about Lewis’ views that the fact that Merlin thought that a woman using birth control with her husband was worthy of death was given less attention than the fact that he didn’t consider tears shameful, like all Good Christian Men do apparently.

Oh and Eustace Scrubb, god I pitied that character.

kittehserf MOD
kittehserf MOD
7 years ago

In the third one, among other things, C.S. Lewis decided to write a lesbian. It didn’t go well.

0_o

I didn’t get far through the first of the space trilogy. Sounds like I didn’t miss much.

Loved Aslan as a kid – loved most of the series, actually, though that’s partly because of Pauline Baynes’s illustrations.

kittehserf MOD
kittehserf MOD
7 years ago

Forgot to add that I hated The Last Battle, and when it gets to the “and as He [suddenly capitalised] spoke, He no longer looked like a lion” bit, well, that was adding insult to injury. I did not want a deity looking like some boring human, I wanted an animal!

katz
7 years ago

Pauline Baynes! One of the great illustrators of the 20th century. I think she was most in her element doing the neomedieval stuff.

gilshalos
7 years ago

I managed to willfully blind myself to the Christianity in Narnia until someone forceably opened my eyes to it. *sigh*

Zolnier
Zolnier
7 years ago

Lewis I think was an excellent descriptive writer but characters and plot were often where he fall a bit flat for me. Except for Till We Have Faces-problematic as that may have been it’s honestly one of my favourite books period.

His theology I think was pretty wonky, until his wife Joy died he kind of thought that grief and sadness were sinful unless in direct response to a sin.

kittehserf MOD
kittehserf MOD
7 years ago

Farmer Giles of Ham! That was a fun story.

I loved the two pictures of the Hall of Images on Charn, in The Magician’s Nephew. They inspired years of drawing and writing.

gilshalos – so did I, for a while. We had LWW read to us in third grade. I still remember how excited I was when it was revealed Aslan was a lion.

Zolnier
Zolnier
7 years ago

Hmm I first heard LWW at school as well, they’re very good books for reading aloud I find.

gilshalos
7 years ago

If we’re going for allegory of that period, I much prefer ‘Leaf, by Niggle’, one of Tolkien’s other short stories. But then I much prefer Tolkien over Lewis in general.

Dvärghundspossen
7 years ago

I loved the Narnia books as a kid, but haven’t read his space stories. I went to Sunday school in the local baptist church back then, everyone read the Narnia books and it was made obvious to me that Aslan is fantasy Jesus. Didn’t have a problem with it at all; as a kid I found it completely reasonable that there’s this big multiverse and Jesus appears in some form or other in each and every universe.
There’s a lot of iffy stuff in these books, but I didn’t realize as a kid. Also, on part of Susan, as we’ve discussed before, my interpretation of why she didn’t get to fantasy heaven was just that she’d convinced herself that Narnia wasn’t real and only the mundane everyday reality counts. I think I was just too literal-minded as a kid to pick up on a lot of the iffy stuff.

kittehserf MOD
kittehserf MOD
7 years ago

I’ve only read the Silmarillion, Hobbit, LotR and Farmer Giles, of Tolkien’s work.

Did anyone here read Alan Garner? I’ve read three of his – The Weirdstone of Brisingamen, Moon of Gomrath and Elidor. Didn’t like Elidor when I first read it (Findhorn’s death) but I fell for the first two immediately, not least because they’re set in real places you can find on an Ordnance Survey map.

The Dark is Rising by Susan Cooper was another of my favourite series, though I don’t like the end. The protagonist(s) shut out from all the magic or other worlds scenario always pisses me off.

kittehserf MOD
kittehserf MOD
7 years ago

Also, on part of Susan, as we’ve discussed before, my interpretation of why she didn’t get to fantasy heaven was just that she’d convinced herself that Narnia wasn’t real and only the mundane everyday reality counts. I think I was just too literal-minded as a kid to pick up on a lot of the iffy stuff.

I remember that conversation. I still read it that way; I don’t read anything about sexuality in it, though if I knew more about Lewis I daresay I might. To me it’s just alienation, losing faith, being materialistic, whatever, that he’s talking about.

gilshalos
7 years ago

Whee! I knew I had found my people!
Leaf by Niggle can be read online here – http://heroicjourneys.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/niggle.pdf
I love those by Alan Garner. I’m not so keen on his other books, but those 3, esp the first 2, yes.
As to the Dark is Rising series..there seem to be two versions of the final book. The one I read, and I presumed was the original (since it was the one a friend 20 years older knew as well), the book ends with the mistletoe blooming and the Dark rising :-

‘[i]It was only by simple accident that his feeble had hit the circle of signs hanging from his neck.[/i]

Then the prophecy written out in full.
End of story, though the fact a few lines earlier Will looks back on the events hints they win out. It wasn’t for a decade after I’d read it that I saw a copy of Silver on the Tree in a bookshop with a new cover, picked it up to leaf through it for nostalgic reasons, and found a whole new bit tacked on the end that basically contradicted a lot of what happened before. Simon, Jane and Barney forget everything ?? Bran /doesn’t/ go off with his father, but chooses reality ?? WTFF ???!

kittehserf MOD
kittehserf MOD
7 years ago

There’s a different version????

I MUST KNOW ABOUT THIS

gilshalos
7 years ago

I never looked to see more. I think the only difference is that it ends without the ‘what happned afterwards’ bit

Lea
Lea
7 years ago

Ann,
The “Asshole atheist” comment Katz made doesn’t imply that all atheists are assholes or unwelcome here. There are a few atheist regulars here. “Asshole atheists” only refers to atheists who are assholes, though I can see where you might have taken it to mean something else. We don’t argue religion or lack of here. If you are looking for a feminist space to discuss atheism on, I recommend most of the blogs at Free Thought Blogs.

gilshalos
7 years ago

Actually, I can’t find any reference to this anywhere online. Maybe there was just a damaged edition where the ending got missed out ? Seems unlikely coincidence, because it was an artistically perfect place to finish the story.

arubakeru
7 years ago

Ann, fwiw I agree with you. Katz was unnecessarily rude.

@Katz: you could have told GrumpyOldMan to stop talking about religion (since it bothers you), but you had to be an ass about it. It felt like you were silencing an opinion.

kittehserf MOD
kittehserf MOD
7 years ago

gilshalos, maybe someone read it and removed the end bit! I can see myself doing that. 😛

I never got the idea of Bran choosing not to go with Arthur. He talked about bonds and helping the world – but he would lose all the memories he had, he’d be starting from scratch.

Mind you I couldn’t fathom why Dorothy would go back to black-and-white Kansas, either, which tells you about my mindset.

I adored Alan Garner’s two Alderley stories. For some reason the part when Susan and Colin are in the mines is my favourite section.

I have this edition of Moon. Love that cover, never seen one I think compares.

Tracy
7 years ago

@Katz: you could have told GrumpyOldMan to stop talking about religion (since it bothers you), but you had to be an ass about it. It felt like you were silencing an opinion.

Seconded. Esp. since the conversation in question was quite specific, and not about christianity or christians in general.

Also… love this thread, bc now I have a ton of books to discover! WHTM comment threads feed my Goodreads ‘to read’ list.

kittehserf MOD
kittehserf MOD
7 years ago

Yeah, have to say I agree, arubakeru, Tracy.

Skye
Skye
7 years ago

Grumpy Old Man’s last comment explained he meant a particular set of Christians. Some of his proceeding remarks could have easily been taken as referencing all Christians.

I understand Katz’s reaction. There was a commenter here a number of months ago (as the regulars no doubt recall) who insisted no one can be a real feminist and be religious (particularly Christian, Jewish or Muslim). From remarks others have said, this sort of thing has happened before and lead to a mass exodus.

Skye
Skye
7 years ago

On Susan in Narnia, I thought she just underwent a loss of faith and interest in material things. I also didn’t think she would never get to Heaven, just that she would need to change first. Maybe I misinterpreted

Zolnier
Zolnier
7 years ago

Apparently whoever tried making that point never heard of any religions that worship female deities.

Skye
Skye
7 years ago

Zolnier, I think that commenter hadn’t heard of a lot of things

kittehserf MOD
kittehserf MOD
7 years ago

Skye, that’s pretty much how I read it about Susan, too, though I don’t think I thought ahead to what was supposed to happen to her, apart from dealing with the fact her parents and siblings had all just been killed in a train crash!

Skye
Skye
7 years ago

Kittehserf, yeah, that would be a lot of pain to deal with.

weirwoodtreehugger
7 years ago

I would actually appreciate it if people stopped using the term “asshole atheist.” I’ve requested that before but my request didn’t really lead to anything. The intent might not be to call us all assholes but it really sounds like that’s exactly what it’s doing. It makes me feel like my opinions are unwanted and unwelcome every time. Atheists are frequently called assholes just for expressing our opinions, including when those opinions aren’t insulting to others and that is bigoted.

I realize that there is a lot of overlap between the insufferable and smug segment of the atheist population and the manosphere. But please don’t let that fact cause us to forget that atheists actually are a minority and marginalized population. At least it is in the US. For example, being an open atheist has been known to count against parents in custody disputes, many people would not vote for an atheist political candidate and about half the US population thinks you can’t be a moral person without belief in a god. We shouldn’t be treated as an exceptional minority category that doesn’t require any intersectionalism or sensitivity.

I really wish that if commenters are going to use the term “asshole atheist” they would make sure to at least qualify it to make sure it is clear the term is not meant as a generalization against all atheists. I do have a few suggestions for alternate terms that would be clearer and inoffensive.

Reddit style atheists
Manosphere atheists
Sam Harris type atheists
Atheist reactionaries

Zolnier
Zolnier
7 years ago

May I suggest Amazing Atheists for the list? God I remember when he was on TWTG, kind of weird to find out what else he did.

ralmcg
7 years ago

The statement that you can’t be a moral person without a belief in a god is an interesting one. I say that one can be an immoral person even with a belief in a god, such as the Inquisition torturing innocent women because it believes that the women were witches for instance.

ralmcg
7 years ago

The statement that you can’t be a moral person without a belief in a god is an interesting one. I say that one can be an immoral person even with a belief in a god, such as the Inquisition torturing innocent women because it believes that the women were witches for instance.

ralmcg
7 years ago

Ooops. My post was posted twice. Sorry.

Zolnier
Zolnier
7 years ago

I think the idea that atheists or other non religiously inclined people can’t possibly have a moral compass says more about whoever’s proposing it than said non religious people.

katz
7 years ago

Oh, honestly, you guys. Where is this “you have to respond nicely to people who are being insulting to you” attitude coming from? In the first place, you’ll find that I responded to him twice before and he kept doubling down; in the second place, his actual opinion was that anyone who disagrees with him is just “not following their beliefs through to the logical conclusion;” and in the third place, “be polite to people who are being insulting to you because everyone should be allowed to share their opinions” is not and has never been how we operate around here.

WWTH: Sorry, I must not have seen when you mentioned that before, but I will stop using that term. Actually makes me kind of uncomfortable too for the same reason; has anyone got an alternate term that doesn’t include the word “atheist?”

Zolnier
Zolnier
7 years ago

Anti-theist?

Phoenician in a time of Romans
Phoenician in a time of Romans
7 years ago
arubakeru
7 years ago

Katz,

I believe that if there is a god it cannot be as perfect as we’re told. That doesn’t mean I think that this god would be bad, or good. It would be something in between, like us, and zie would be a limited being.

But if God is omnipotent what GOM said makes sense (to me at least). I’m aware that you don’t like reading this sort of opinion and I will shut my mouth on this matter (starting now). But you didn’t tell GOM to stop talking about a sensitive issue. You said:

“Mmm, no, I generally avoid getting into religious discussions, but as is generally the case when one says “there are only two possible explanations” about a complex topic, you are wrong. There are many possible explanations, and if I brought in ten Christians of different stripes, you’d get ten different ones.”

Which looks like engaging in the debate to me.

Yeah, he doubled down on his statement. And *then* you started being rude. You didn’t say why you thought he was wrong, you called him an asshole atheist (he’s said he’s not an atheist btw) and then you silenced him in a way that, personally, I think is gross.

You want to be that kind of person because in WHTM politeness is not a rule? Fine. But I don’t think he deserved it and that your response was way out of line. I get to have an opinion, too.

Zolnier
Zolnier
7 years ago

I really don’t get that particular short story. Bits with Susan dwelling on having to identify her siblings was great though.

katz
7 years ago

arubakeru, the issue (and what I’ve been addressing all along) is not his opinions about God. It’s his opinion about Christians and people with those religious beliefs. Namely, that anyone who holds a different opinion than him about theodicy is just not being logical enough. There’s no point in trying to have a discussion with someone who has already decided, without actually hearing them, that all other opinions are wrong and illogical and probably the result of the religious thought police.

arubakeru
7 years ago

IMO human beings are too limited to assert something with absolute confidence. So I agree with you when you say that it is wrong to decide that you speak the truth and anyone that disagrees with you is illogical.

That said, you didn’t actually try to give GOM your opinion. You decided he would never change his mind and that he should be punished for it.

He also wasn’t referring to all Christians to begin with. I read it as him just stating his opinion about a certain branch (I think, not an expert) of thought.

katz
7 years ago

IMO human beings are too limited to assert something with absolute confidence. So I agree with you when you say that it is wrong to decide that you speak the truth and anyone that disagrees with you is illogical.

Good, because that’s all I was saying. That was my opinion and I shared it.

arubakeru
7 years ago

I understand why you didn’t like his comment, but I also understand why Ann got so pissed. I didn’t understand all the rudeness, though. As I said, it felt like you were silencing him. If you were not, you weren’t clear about your intentions.