Categories
Uncategorized

The Feminists: A story so frighteningly impossible, you won't believe it wasn't collectively written by the Men's Rights subreddit

Uh oh.
Uh oh

 

A tiny group of gallant men (and “their women”) go underground to fight the evil gynocratic overlords. Is this the plot of a terrible dystopian potboiler from 1971, or a description of how most MRAs see themselves, and the world, today?

Turns out it’s both. I found this pic in the Blue Pill subreddit, and now I really, really want to read this book.

Here’s a book review from someone who did.

Subscribe
Notify of
guest

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.

496 Comments
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
Howard Bannister
6 years ago

I posted a link up above of one time we talked about religion and stuff and I felt super-comfortable.

There was this other time… But, it’s more because there was a dustup and I felt the need to make a long splainy kind of rambling post that’s sort of apologetic and stuff. Which I want to relink because I think it might be relevant-ish.

https://wehuntedthemammoth.com/2013/10/23/vox-day-the-talibans-attempt-to-silence-malala-yousafzai-was-perfectly-rational-and-scientifically-justifiable/comment-page-5/#comment-368361

Or not, I dunno. That may be completely tangential.

Argenti Aertheri
6 years ago

Term suggestion — Assholery Among Atheists, short hands to AAA (and, my mother working their, they joke that that stands for Another Aggravated Asshole, so it works nicely I think)

As for religion being inherently irrational, so what? Maybe it is, but if it makes people happier and they aren’t being assholes about it, why should I care? And, all other points aside, it can prove people with a sense of agency, and you know, if praying makes people feel better, I’m not gonna take them from them whether I think it works or not.

Which brings us to my problem with GrumpyOldMan’s comment — ok, so theodicy is a problem, one that people have been struggling to sort out for AGES, but if it doesn’t bother someone, they aren’t being an asshole, and they don’t what to discuss it, why bother? (AWW CATFISH IS CATFISHING!!…back to what I was saying…) I don’t see a problem with not pondering something when that thing isn’t hurting anyone — and theodicy in general may well be, but that people don’t see it as an inherent collapse of Christian belief (or whatever)? Who cares?

And idk if we’re particular hostile to atheists, I know there’s a lingering “you do not go off on religious people” among some of us after the mass exodus, and I could easily see that spilling over into attacking atheists instead of defending religious people. (Stats whiz or not, I am NOT going through hundreds of thousands of comments to find ones about religion, and then dealing with the subjective nature of whether something is offensive!)

Falconer — “Is it feminism’s responsibility to deal with men’s issues?”

Problem with that is that men are the dominate group, and, in the US at least, so are theists (well, Christians really, but point still applies).

Lea
Lea
6 years ago

Sally,
Nah. That part was just chiming into the Brights topic already in progress. It wasn’t directed at just you. I was just generally fessing up to my initial support of what turned out to be a bad idea.

Lea
Lea
6 years ago

So can anyone provide an actual example of a conversation that made them uncomfortable as an atheist, or that they thought might have made other people uncomfortable? “Three years ago with no link” doesn’t count, sorry.

Katz,
You don’t sound sorry. You sound incredulous at someone’s experience of this space and condescending toward her too. Could you maybe, not? Sally said you’d have to take her word that she felt uncomfortable. Don’t keep insisting on examples. It’s not very respectful of her boundaries.

cloudiah
6 years ago

I can’t remember a conversation here that made me uncomfortable as an atheist, at least not where the source of my discomfort was my treatment by non-atheists.

Or to be more accurate, the times when I’ve been uncomfortable here as an atheist were all caused by other atheists treating other commenters in ways that struck me as a kind of asshattery I’d rather not be associated with.

Not trying to deny anyone else’s experience of discomfort, just sharing my personal experience in this here comments section.

emilygoddess - MOD
emilygoddess - MOD
6 years ago

I wouldn’t like WHTM to echo specifically atheist sites where that sort of sniping’s the accepted norm – the very things this thread veered to, calling people delusional or woo-merchants or irrational or mentally ill or whatever. That stuff is why I would not feel at all safe commenting on Pharyngula, for instance. It’s not my safe space, it’s a safe space for people with different beliefs on that particular subject. Which is as it should be, but as I said, I’d hate for this place to go down that path.

Ditto to all of this. I completely understand the frustration atheists feel. I have, IDK, something like passing privilege in that I attend a church, plus I live in a very religiously diverse area, and I recognize that many atheists live in places where their atheism makes them targets for all kinds of bullshit. I don’t blame them one bit for being angry. And as someone who’s used the term “woo” herself, I don’t feel I can cast stones on that point. BUT when you’re talking to individual people, there’s no excuse for something as offensive and mean-spirited as calling them delusional and telling them they’re doing their own religion wrong (the latter wasn’t in this thread, but has happened here). Believing that you’re right and they’re wrong doesn’t give you the right to talk to people that way when they’ve done nothing to you. And yes, I’m aware of where I am and how we talk to and about MRAs, but those dudes are aggressively, actively seeking to hurt people, whereas I’m pretty sure the religious members of this community are ON OUR GODDAMN SIDE.

emilygoddess - MOD
emilygoddess - MOD
6 years ago

WWTH,

Atheists are a marginalized group that gets treated as a dominant group for some reason.

I think a lot of this has to do with who the most prominent atheists are (or have been until recently): cis-hetero white men with higher educations and some class privilege.

I also think (although this is just my experience and could be totally wrong) that atheists are over-represented on the internet, or at least more vocal, so to those of us who are immersed in internet culture atheism may seem more common than it is.

Puddleglum
6 years ago

Is there any science fiction society where child rearing is handled collectively but not abjectly dystopian?

Okay, so I’m extremely late to answer this (my bad for being away from a computer outside of work), but I immediately thought of at least 2 novels that mention either collective or creche childrearing (Others are sort of tingling in my brain, but I can’t remember them). I’m still catching up on the comments, so if these have already been mentioned, sorry for repeating the info.

First is the Gate of Ivory by Doris Egan (MC comes from a planet where everyone is creche raised) and the second is The Iron Duke by Meljean Brook, which is a sort of post-dystopian steampunk/romance/adventure novel (so not exactly sci-fi, though it is absolutely full of nanotech & cyborgs, so ymmv).

LBT
LBT
6 years ago

I was going to say something about atheism, but I am irritable as hell today and decided to delete it.

RE: cloudiah

Or to be more accurate, the times when I’ve been uncomfortable here as an atheist were all caused by other atheists treating other commenters in ways that struck me as a kind of asshattery I’d rather not be associated with.

Ditto. No theist here has ever made me uncomfortable. It has ALL been other atheists. Which is hilarious, since I’m probably the most hostile person to gods I know! You’d think I’d LOVE hanging out with other atheists! And I’ve been around obnoxious fundies, so I know just how reprehensible they can be. (Ask me about the pro-life billboards here! The people who say they’ll pray for me when they see me on crutches! The assholes hubby had to march behind at the Pride Parade, who SHOULD have just been protesters but got allowed to march.)

The thing is, atheists should be a hugely diverse group, seeing as their only unifying characteristic is the LACK of belief in something… but I mostly hear from a very narrow TYPE of atheist. I’m EXTREMELY uncomfortable in an atheist setting, because honestly, I feel they’re hostile as hell to me for not expressing their KIND of atheism. Us and one of our friends (an atheist who goes to church) commiserated about it once.

Unimaginative
Unimaginative
6 years ago

That’s about I feel about the subject of religion too. It is in no way an attack on a whole person, I just genuinely don’t understand why some people are evidence based in most things and then believe in a supernatural deity. I don’t get it at all. That isn’t meant as an offense to anyone who does. It’s just that I don’t understand it.

The thing about atheism that doesn’t make sense to me is the evangelism of it. During my atheist phase, I didn’t spend a lot of time thinking about god/s, church, or anything. It just wasn’t a thing. Like, I’m a non-smoker, and the only time I’m conscious of cigarettes or cigars or smoking is when somebody is smoking where I have to smell it. It’s not a factor in my life.

I just have never understood why anyone feels the need to convince other people to adopt their non-belief. Granted, my pre-atheism religious background was very low-key, so I didn’t really have to push the pendulum too hard, if that makes sense.

So, regarding evidence. I think that tangible, reproducible evidence is great for most practical purposes, but that is not the only kind of data that exists. I had an experience that, based on what I saw, heard, and felt, made me believe that some form of divine energy/entity exists, and that it is fully aware of me. Was it a real event that left no tangible trace (non-physical evidence), or did I have some kind of psychotic break? And, in the end, what does it matter to anyone except me?

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

As for religion being inherently irrational, so what? Maybe it is, but if it makes people happier and they aren’t being assholes about it, why should I care?

This is part of my issue with the “but I need to point out that your beliefs are irrational” comments. People believe all kinds of irrational things, so why is this one special? If your point is “belief in this irrational thing is being used to justify persecuting X group of people” then OK, let’s talk about that, but the thing is, the problem there isn’t so much the fact that the belief is irrational as the persecuting people part and the fact that the people with the beliefs that you/I don’t think are rational are overreaching their authority by attempting to impose their beliefs on people who don’t share them. So I feel like people are missing the point and we just end up in an endless loop of “your irrational beliefs are causing this bad thing”, “wait, did you just call me irrational? that was rude”, “but don’t you acknowledge that irrational beliefs like yours are causing this bad thing” when in fact the beliefs aren’t the problem, it’s the refusal of some of the people with the beliefs to accept other people’s boundaries that’s the actual problem. So everyone gets pissed off at everyone else and nothing actually gets done about the bad thing that we all agree is a bad thing. Why do we need to keep repeating this cycle? What’s the point?

LBT
LBT
6 years ago

Yeah, Unimaginative, while I became an atheist not because of evidence-based logic, but because of emotion. I would be FURIOUS if I had any reason to believe that a god was responsible for the horror circus in my family. Since I’d rather live in a state that ISN’T constant incendiary rage, being an atheist is the safest, healthiest thing for me to be. (That or I suppose I could believe in tiny podunk gods who’re mostly ineffective, or a totally distant god that has nothing to do with anything, but what’s the point in that?)

But I’m not going to pretend it was some rational process.

emilygoddess - MOD
emilygoddess - MOD
6 years ago

I’m usually pretty sure there’s no god, but the “there’s no proof” argument, by itself, doesn’t resonate with me. I mean, I can’t objectively prove that my partner loves me, but I have a wealth of personal experience suggesting that he does, and believing that he does makes me happy, so I go with it (of course, if I started trying to make public policies intended to enforce my experience of love on others, that would be another issue entirely…).

I’m also reminded of this conversation from the end of Terry Pratchett’s Hogfather (the CAPS are Death, and the regular type is his granddaughter Susan. Long story):

“All right,” said Susan. “I’m not stupid. You’re saying humans need… fantasies to make life bearable.”

REALLY? AS IF IT WAS SOME KIND OF PINK PILL? NO. HUMANS NEED FANTASY TO BE HUMAN. TO BE THE PLACE WHERE THE FALLING ANGEL MEETS THE RISING APE.

“Tooth fairies? Hogfathers? Little—”

YES. AS PRACTICE. YOU HAVE TO START OUT LEARNING TO BELIEVE THE LITTLE LIES.

“So we can believe the big ones?”

YES. JUSTICE. MERCY. DUTY. THAT SORT OF THING.

“They’re not the same at all!”

YOU THINK SO? THEN TAKE THE UNIVERSE AND GRIND IT DOWN TO THE FINEST POWDER AND SIEVE IT THROUGH THE FINEST SIEVE AND THEN SHOW ME ONE ATOM OF JUSTICE, ONE MOLECULE OF MERCY. AND YET—Death waved a hand. AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME…SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED.

“Yes, but people have got to believe that, or what’s the point—”

MY POINT EXACTLY.”

Lots of things can’t objectively be proven to be real, but we treat them as real nevertheless. I know God isn’t the same as Justice, but going purely from the “lack of evidence” argument, what’s the difference?

(Challenges to this line of reasoning are welcome. I like knowing when there are holes in my arguments so I can close them)

emilygoddess - MOD
emilygoddess - MOD
6 years ago

@LBT, “tiny podunk gods” are the only ones I can believe in, either. Polytheistic theologies are much less likely to have to wrestle with the problem of why bad things happen, because the gods either don’t know anything’s wrong, they don’t care, or they can’t help (depending on the religion and the god). They may be more powerful than humans, but they’re usually not all-powerful.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

Also, just FYI, I didn’t appreciate the comment from WWTH suggesting that some atheists just aren’t aware of their own oppression because they’re suffering from a sort of false consciousness. Some of us really, genuinely are not suffering any oppression at all as a result of our lack of belief. Where you live is probably the biggest factor here, and your family of origin would be another one, as would the industry you work in. But for some of us, we’ve gone through our entire lives without the slightest trace of oppression for our non-belief, which is why we don’t feel like we’re being oppressed, and why the idea of atheists as a marginalized group doesn’t have the emotional resonance that it would for someone who’s genuinely had to struggle with the people around them over their lack of belief.

For those of us within that group who think of ourselves as privileged, it’s not because of the atheism, it’s because we actually are privileged in terms of race, class, or whatever (possibly multiple) other axes, and in our cases our atheism isn’t really undercutting that privilege at all because we happen to live/work/have grown up in places where nobody really cares.

Unimaginative
Unimaginative
6 years ago

our atheism isn’t really undercutting that privilege at all because we happen to live/work/have grown up in places where nobody really cares.

THIS. The only places or groups where I’m excluded due to my beliefs or lack thereof are places I’m not interested in being. Yes, it’s privilege. I know that there are people who are excluded, harassed, and discriminated against because they don’t belong to the dominant religious group, but I’ve never come across anyone like that in real life (that I’m aware of). It’s more of an abstract concept for me, which makes it very challenging to get my head around.

Which I guess comes back to the whole thing about objecting to people’s behaviour and actual words, and not their intentions.

LBT
LBT
6 years ago

RE: emilygoddess

@LBT, “tiny podunk gods” are the only ones I can believe in, either.

Yeah, I can handle that. But at that point, again, I make an emotional decision and decide I like atheism better. I don’t like the idea of being indebted to anyone, especially a supernatural being. *snrk*

RE: cassandrakitty

Some of us really, genuinely are not suffering any oppression at all as a result of our lack of belief.

I’m not. I’m so busy dealing with disability stuff, mental illness stuff, trans stuff, queer stuff… nobody who’s going to give me shit over being an atheist is going to make it through all the rest of that stuff! Atheism doesn’t even appear on my radar, despite being from Texas. Sometimes I wonder if I missed something.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

I didn’t really feel like I was being given a hard time about it while my family was in Texas either, though I was a teenager so that might make a difference. I did get the occasional person trying to get me to go to their church with them, but they did that to other religious people from different denominations too, so that’s not an atheist-specific thing (nor is it oppression either).

Falconer
6 years ago

No one’s coming by and checking to see if I’m dressed for Sunday meeting, and no one has for a long time … but at least two classmates have given me Bibles in my lifetime and my closest friends occasionally go all Evolution LOL random mutations and pit fights amirite? and I would be okay ignoring that except I can see the gates around their minds.

These folks went to college and they are proud of their ignorance.

Also too there was public prayer before every ball game at my grade school, my band teacher made us all pray before we competed or performed and before dinner at band camp, and one of my teachers gave me and my brother copies of God’s Little Instruction Book for Men as graduation gifts. All told, I was glad to shake the dust of high school off my shoes.

Argenti Aertheri
6 years ago

Thought, based in part on having spent the last 24 hours almost solely trying to make the Borg silly/serious split less ineffective in regards to function queries and load time, and in part based on what LBT and Falconer said — if I had to pick between coming out to my family in terms of opting out of gender, or opting out of religion…I don’t have to think about it, the former would get me less shit. Granted, I’ve got a bunch of asshole relatives who’re all holier than thou, and ones who gave up on enforcing gender roles somewhere around “fine, run around naked, at least you’re potty trained now”.

Idk if that’s some non-binary cis privilege weirdness, or a case of “gah, you people and your religion”, but it seems weird.

Falconer — yeah, it can be headache inducing, my mother was on The Pill for years, but I cannot convince her that Plan B isn’t abortion — THEY DO THE SAME DAMNED THING!! It’s literally the same drug! *throws hands in air, goes back to screaming at PHP*

Footnote — if the Borg is broken, I’m working on fixing it. I do all my “might break everything” coding in the wee hours EST though. (Which works, I code better in the middle of the night anyways)

kittehserf MOD
kittehserf MOD
6 years ago

Term suggestion — Assholery Among Atheists, short hands to AAA (and, my mother working their, they joke that that stands for Another Aggravated Asshole, so it works nicely I think)

I like it.

As for religion being inherently irrational, so what? Maybe it is, but if it makes people happier and they aren’t being assholes about it, why should I care? And, all other points aside, it can prove people with a sense of agency, and you know, if praying makes people feel better, I’m not gonna take them from them whether I think it works or not.

THIS, so much. The “it’s irrational” statement pisses me off when it’s used as the be-all and end-all of judging. Is it hurting anyone? If the answer’s no, then it’s nobody else’s fucking business.

I’ve had this “you’re delusional” BS thrown at me – not often, but occasionally – for beliefs based on my own experiences, that harm nobody else and bring me a great deal of happiness. That’s the sort of AAA I side-eye. Blogs that tolerate that sort of casual dismissal of other people’s lives are no place for me, because they would mean I can’t even mention my loved ones in passing.

Ditto to all of this. I completely understand the frustration atheists feel. I have, IDK, something like passing privilege in that I attend a church, plus I live in a very religiously diverse area, and I recognize that many atheists live in places where their atheism makes them targets for all kinds of bullshit. I don’t blame them one bit for being angry. And as someone who’s used the term “woo” herself, I don’t feel I can cast stones on that point. BUT when you’re talking to individual people, there’s no excuse for something as offensive and mean-spirited as calling them delusional and telling them they’re doing their own religion wrong (the latter wasn’t in this thread, but has happened here). Believing that you’re right and they’re wrong doesn’t give you the right to talk to people that way when they’ve done nothing to you. And yes, I’m aware of where I am and how we talk to and about MRAs, but those dudes are aggressively, actively seeking to hurt people, whereas I’m pretty sure the religious members of this community are ON OUR GODDAMN SIDE.

Seconding all that, emilygoddess!

Also, yay for Pratchett quote. Of course we know Death is really an agent of the Furrinati, from the time someone was on a “what’s the point of it all?” rant and Death said, “Cats. Cats are nice.” 🙂

@LBT, “tiny podunk gods” are the only ones I can believe in, either. Polytheistic theologies are much less likely to have to wrestle with the problem of why bad things happen, because the gods either don’t know anything’s wrong, they don’t care, or they can’t help (depending on the religion and the god). They may be more powerful than humans, but they’re usually not all-powerful.

I’m not polytheist (I tend to think of a non-personal creator) but that always made sense to me. The gods are too busy squabbling among themselves to be much help to anyone.

Well, apart from Anoia, of course.

@cassandra: yes to all the above. For all the society I live in knows, I could be atheist or polytheist or anything at all, because nobody asks. Hell, I worked for years with a trio of Assembly of God members and while we talked on occasion about religion, they never put any pressure on me or made any attempt whatsoever to change my views. Yeah, they probably thought I was going to Hell: big deal. One of them was my boss, but he was boss of a whole office full of people who were atheist or so close as to make no difference. That was Australia in the 80s and for all the infiltration of more US-style fundamentalist churches here, it’s still the case today. Not every atheist in the world lives under oppression for being atheist.

kittehserf MOD
kittehserf MOD
6 years ago

Also, Argenti, do I get a prize for being the first to use AAA in a sentence? ::makes big puppy-dog eyes::

LBT
LBT
6 years ago

RE: Falconer

All told, I was glad to shake the dust of high school off my shoes.

Truer words were never spoken.

RE: Argenti

if I had to pick between coming out to my family in terms of opting out of gender, or opting out of religion…I don’t have to think about it, the former would get me less shit.

Wow, really? Our parents basically gave up on indocrination early on (our father was a Jeffersonian deist and couldn’t care less) but STILL flipped their shit over gender and other things. I would rather be openly atheist a million times than deal with one more fucking Trans 101 about what am I, and do I have a penis, and why on earth would I have gone on hormones, don’t I know that shit can fuck up my body…

Also, basically all the stuff I hear about atheists being shat on for, sounds like exactly the stuff that people in the wrong religion gets shat on for. Being Muslim or Sikh, for instance. Or Jewish, man, people are ASSHOLES to Jews…

kittehserf MOD
kittehserf MOD
6 years ago

All told, I was glad to shake the dust of high school off my shoes.

Truer words were never spoken.

Thirded. Not that religon ever entered the picture. High school didn’t need that to make it suck.

LBT
LBT
6 years ago

I have never understood the nostalgia for high school. Why on earth would I WANT to go back to being a child? Being a kid SUCKED! Your life is entirely controlled by overworked and underpaid adults and trivial things get you shoved into lockers. I would NEVER want to return to childhood!

kittehserf MOD
kittehserf MOD
6 years ago

Hey y’all, read Howard’s INCREDIBLE ADVENTURES link upthread, if you haven’t already. It’s a hoot.

weirwoodtreehugger
6 years ago

Cassandra,

I f I said something that sounds like I was implying all atheists have personally suffered oppression, it wasn’t meant. I was speaking of atheists in general, as a group. A person from any marginalized group can go through life without being personally oppressed. That doesn’t make it not a marginalized group. I haven’t experienced anything more serious than a few snide comments myself. For me, the knowledge that half the country thinks I’m immoral or amoral without even knowing me is upsetting. For others it may not be.

weirwoodtreehugger
6 years ago

Where did I say that all atheists suffer oppression and they’re wrong for saying they haven’t? I really don’t recall saying that. It doesn’t even sound like something I would say. It was either a misinterpration or I badly phrased something while typing hastily on my phone.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

Also, basically all the stuff I hear about atheists being shat on for, sounds like exactly the stuff that people in the wrong religion gets shat on for. Being Muslim or Sikh, for instance. Or Jewish, man, people are ASSHOLES to Jews…

Actually sometimes being the wrong religion can result in worse treatment than being an atheist. I used to live in Saudi Arabia, which is about as theocratic as it gets, so obviously atheists aren’t going to be anyone’s favorite people, but it’s not actually illegal to practice atheism because, well, how does one practice atheism, and how does anyone know unless you tell them? Whereas setting up religious services in your house, well, that could get you a visit from the mutaween, who are not known for their open minds and friendly approach.

Arctic Ape
Arctic Ape
6 years ago

LBT:

Nah, I’m an anti-theist, in that if I ever had to accept that gods existed and were involved with my life, I would be FURIOUS with them and probably wish their destruction. Thus far, I think I’ve managed not to be an asscake. (Or would that make me an anti-deist? I forget what the actual term is, so maybe I’ve totally got it all wrong!)

Technically, that attitude would be misotheism, presumably based on dystheism (the belief that gods are evil). Antitheism is opposition to other people’s theism, which is perceived as a societal problem. People often use “antitheism” loosely to mean opposition to religion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misotheism

Shadow:

Yeah, I’d prefer smug atheist to New Atheist because there are way too many well established atheists, including some of the big names in the movement, that fall in the same category, and it seems unfair to foist this off onto the newly converted,

“New Atheist” is a somewhat fuzzy concept, but it certainly does not mean newbies in the movement. Basically it means a historically new type of atheism, although many of us would say we’re the same old stuff, only more vocal. It’s like, some 10 years ago religious apologists and sundry cultural critics noted, “Hey, there’s a vocal atheist movement now, not like in the old days when atheism was limited to philosophy clubs”.

So yeah, it doesn’t make sense to imply that smug assholes are something new in atheism, particularly since that would imply that “New Atheism” is a movement by and for smug assholes. I think smug atheist and asshole atheist are great terms when you mean smug assholes in the movement.

pallygirl
pallygirl
6 years ago

I am disappointed in the definition of misotheism. I thought it had to do with soup.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

Worship of the fermentation process, maybe?

Arctic Ape
Arctic Ape
6 years ago

Cassandra:

well, how does one practice atheism, and how does anyone know unless you tell them?

Eh, in my understanding you can’t really “practice” atheism, although you might set up a community around it. The so called “atheist movement” is really a secularist movement (as in opposing the privilege of dominant religion) with strong aspects of antitheism (arguing/preaching against religious belief) and skepticism (promoting evidence-based thinking, not that all atheists are good at it). And yes, it certainly serves as a community of like-minded people.

It’s true that since atheism isn’t a strongly communal activity like most religions, It’s easier to be secretly atheist than a religious heretic. Then again, precisely because religion is communal, members of oppressed religion tend to get more support from each other.

Emilygoddess:

of course, if I started trying to make public policies intended to enforce my experience of love on others, that would be another issue entirely…

“My husband is so awesome everyone must cuddle him daily!”

emilygoddess - MOD
emilygoddess - MOD
6 years ago

Also, basically all the stuff I hear about atheists being shat on for, sounds like exactly the stuff that people in the wrong religion gets shat on for. Being Muslim or Sikh, for instance. Or Jewish, man, people are ASSHOLES to Jews…

So much THIS. Whenever I hear someone go on about “religious privilege” I get flames on the side of my face. I’m sure the Muslims behind Park 51 were super privileged to have the entire country debating their constitutional rights. I’m sure both Sikhs and Muslims are super privileged to know that people might burst into their house of worship for being Muslim (or for being a group that people don’t know aren’t Muslims). Or the Jews who apparently control the banks (but can’t keep their temples from being vandalized with swastikas). Or the Pagans who get their kids taken away and their businesses run out of town.

To those of us who are religious minorities, it’s pretty obvious that the privilege lies specifically with Christianity (and a specific kind, at that), and that atheists and religious minorities share a common interest in maintaining a secular state and dismantling the social structures that privilege Christianity. Which is why it’s so upsetting when someone starts going off on how all religious people are ignorant bigots and theism is the enemy and so on – dude, we’re on the same side.

LBT
LBT
6 years ago

RE: cassandrakitty

Actually sometimes being the wrong religion can result in worse treatment than being an atheist.

No joke. I had a Jewish friend not much older than me who STILL ran into kids who asked where his horns were. I have yet to see an atheist center burned down or groups of atheists pepper-sprayed on the street for being atheists.

RE: Arctic Ape

Technically, that attitude would be misotheism

Thanks! I wasn’t sure what the term was.

RE: emilygoddess

To those of us who are religious minorities, it’s pretty obvious that the privilege lies specifically with Christianity (and a specific kind, at that), and that atheists and religious minorities share a common interest in maintaining a secular state and dismantling the social structures that privilege Christianity.

*standing ovation* Thank you, you have summed up all my feelings nice and succinctly. I have yet to see an atheist face bigotry that is somehow different or worse than that unleashed on non-dominant religious groups. (And let’s not even talk about those poor fuckers who practice Falun Gong… *shudder*)

kittehserf MOD
kittehserf MOD
6 years ago

Something I was thinking about last night: the cry of “it’s not rational” from some people makes so little sense. Is everything humans do supposed to be rational, to make Perfect Objective Sense? Is emotion not allowed to influence any of our decisions? Even if that were possible, who’d want to live that way? It’s one thing to talk about things that lead to bigotry and social harm, but to talk as if belief = fundamentalist variety of X religion and therefore automatically harmful is stupid and offensive.

maistrechat
6 years ago

While am sympathetic to the persecution that Falun Gong practitioners get, its teachings are also incredibly racist:

1. the afterlife is racially segregated
2. mixed-race individuals can’t go to heaven because of 1.

katz
6 years ago

Hell, anti-semitism is so prevalent that we have a specific word for it.

weirwoodtreehugger
6 years ago

I thought playing oppression Olympics and analyzing what groups have it worse was frowned upon in social justice spaces but there are now several comments on this page doing just that. This is the kind of thing people mean when they say there’s hostility towards atheists here.

I’m not going to claim atheists have it either worse or better but here are some examples of atheists being oppressed. I should point out that if you Google atheist oppression there will be several instances of people (including atheists themselves) mocking the idea that atheists can be oppression mixed right in with the examples of the oppression that’s being mocked as not existing.
http://www.alternet.org/belief/4-reasons-atheists-have-fight-their-rights
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/16/atheists-discrimination_n_4413593.html
http://www.thejakartaglobe.com/archive/breaking-news-indonesian-atheist-officially-arrested/
atheist-activist-arrested-for-blasphemy-in-Egypt

Do I really need to point out that just because you haven’t experienced or witnessed an oppression that doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen? Come on. I know you all are better than this.

Argenti Aertheri
6 years ago

*wkaes up at 7 pm* the Borg code is done, as of 10 am. It should be loading substantially faster if you aren’t logged in, if you are it’s not loading from the site cache so it’s not that much faster.

LBT — yeah, but I think part of it might be that, particularly being non-binary, they wouldn’t understand. And this wouldn’t already have decided it makes me evil.

I wouldn’t mind going back to my senior year of HS, but I basically lived in the theater. It’s that I miss, not HS.

Kitteh — you want a calm or brine shrimp? Or belly rubs? Are those puffer puppy eyes, or puppy ones? Probably prefer cookies huh?

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

@ Argenti

I’m guessing the non-response from your parents probably was the “I have no idea what you’re talking about, but that’s nice, dear” kind of thing that parents often do when their children are talking to them about something they’re completely unfamiliar with and don’t really understand.

kittehserf
6 years ago

Kitteh — you want a calm or brine shrimp? Or belly rubs? Are those puffer puppy eyes, or puppy ones? Probably prefer cookies huh?

Cookies and belly rubs!

Headless Unicorn Guy
Headless Unicorn Guy
6 years ago

Coming into this VERY late, but:

Notice this dystopia is set in “the Far Future of 1992″. Either it was compressing its future trying to put everything”Within YOUR Lifetime!” or adhering to the trope of the time that “Humanity WILL become extinct before 2000 via Inevitable Global Thermonuclear War”.

And there was a lot of shlock on the SF paperback scene a few years each way of 1970. Ever heard of Runts of 61 Cygni C? Sticks in my mind just for the subtitle/blurb:

“An alien world, twin to the sun, where one-eyed runts play endless games of sex.”

Now THAT’s Shlocky!

Phoenician in a time of Romans
Phoenician in a time of Romans
6 years ago

Notice this dystopia is set in “the Far Future of 1992″. Either it was compressing its future trying to put everything”Within YOUR Lifetime!” or adhering to the trope of the time that “Humanity WILL become extinct before 2000 via Inevitable Global Thermonuclear War”.

Yes, and they did. What are yo-

Oh, Christ, H.U.G. – you’ve got the simulator emulation set to extreme AND you’ve set your immersion level way too high again. We’ve told you that you get identity problems if you do that. Last time, you were wandering around thinking you only had two arms for a week.

Hit the reset buttons, and sit on your tentacles quietly until the nurse can get to you, okay?

Lex-Man
Lex-Man
6 years ago

I seen at least two bad 60’s sci-fi programs with similar premises. One had a planet ruled by women who wanted to evade earth with a giant dolls house the other had men drugged and working on a plantation in some kind of dystopian future, it had something to do with travelling through the earth in some weird vehicle thing. Can’t remember what either of them were though.

genedaniell3
genedaniell3
6 years ago

Probably kinda late to say this but …
After realizing that I had really hit a raw nerve with Katz, which I hadn’t intended but was partly the result of my having carelessly written “Christians” when I meant “Calvinists”, I decided that I needed to take a time-out and rethink my tone if not my ideas. I know that I have a tendency to get riled up and become argumentative in a way that is not appropriate to the discussions you have here. I tend to spend a good deal of time on political blogs which tends to make me a bit insensitive to tone. (On one blog, another poster suggested that, among other things, I am in the habit of pleasuring my mother with sex toys. It’s hard to respond to that sort of thing without becoming a bit intemperate.) I see that I stirred up more unpleasantness than I ever intended, and I apologize for that. I do enjoy this blog, and I will try to behave better in the future.
(1) I do not believe in god, but I am not an atheist. I have never seen a conclusive argument either for or against the existence of god. I can’t accept the common view that god is a wrathful old man taking revenge on his creatures for alleged misbehavior, but I accept that human understanding is limited and there could be a supreme being or force that is beyond our comprehension. I find Richard Dawkins insufferable for asserting rather that stating his opinion that there is no god. I don’t know, you don’t know, and he doesn’t know. As to the issue of whether atheists are oppressed, I will only point out that there are openly gay people in Congress while no Congressperson (and there must be a few) has been willing to come out of the atheism closet. Barney Frank was an out gay man for decades but waited till he had retired from Congress to come out as an atheist.
(2) I specifically have a serious problem with the Calvinistic belief in total “depravity” which in effect you can’t be a good person unless you believe in their god. More generally I have a serious problem with religions that unite with oppressive governments to magnify that oppression, to try to force people to conform to their beliefs, to define good people as evil because they do not believe the right things. Religion has been a major force behind huge amounts of war and persecution throughout history. I have never had a problem with anyone’s personal beliefs as long as they recognize the right of others to believe differently, and as long as they treat others with kindness and respect. (Obviously I am not perfect in that respect, but I usually try.) The main problem I have with religion is the intolerance and hatred that SOME believers promote SOME of the time. That, in my view, is evil.

1 8 9 10