So, that happened.
The debate between Matt Binder (from the Majority Report) and Paul Elam (from A Pile of Money for Paul Elam) went off yesterday. I can’t say it went off without a hitch, because it was actually quite hitch-full. Indeed, it was kind of a disaster — at least for one Paul Elam.
Paul’s the one who wanted the debate. He chose the topic, he chose the format, he controlled the venue. And he lost the debate rather spectacularly, grimly reading a succession of prepared statements while Binder shot down his arguments with common-sensical one-lines and raised issues that Elam didn’t or couldn’t address.
Binder rattled Elam early by presenting him with an unattributed quote that sounded virtually identical to Elliot Rodger’s misogynistic rants and which Elam dismissed as something that no MRA would ever say; Binder then revealed that it was a quote from Stefan Molyneux, the MRA “philosopher” who was one of the featured speakers at AVFM’s recent conference. (Indeed, it was a quote that I highlighted in my first Misogyny Theater videos on Mr. M.)
Then, after Elam read off a list of all the various women who have associated themselves in some way with AVFM, Binder knocked the wind out of him by asking, quite simply, so what?
The most surreal moment, in a debate full of surreal moments, came 39 minutes into the debate. Binder had spent much of his previous two segments discussing an assortment of issues that the Men’s Rights movement largely ignores, even though they primarily affect men, and men of color in particular — from stop and frisk policies in major cities to the deaths of American soldiers in wars overseas.
But instead of answering Binder’s question –why hasn’t the Men’s Rights movement actually tried to do something about these problems? — Elam instead read his prepared “closing statement,” responding not to anything Binder had argued but to the arguments Elam, writing the statement before the debate, had assumed he would make.
And so, after hearing Binder passionately argue that the MRM needs to fight for the rights of men in prison and for the lives of men sent to fight and possibly die in wars, we heard Elam beating away on a straw man, declaring — after calling him a bigot — that Binder
has been led to believe, quite falsely, that gender justice mandates the summary rejection of all men’s problems in favor of a view that can only see men as the problem.
The debate, such as it was, lurched to its conclusion in an assortment of miscues and technical glitches a few minutes later. Dean Esmay, the incompetent and often ineffectual “moderator” of the debate, rocking back and forth on his chair in a darkened room, eyes mostly closed, plaintively asked Binder to send him “that particular story” on stop and frisk in New York city that Binder had referred to earlier in the debate. Esmay, defensive and exasperated, explained that
we are an all-volunteer organization and we don’t see every story. I’d like to see that story from Matt, please do send it to me.
Binder, incredulous, pointed out that stop and frisk has been in the headlines for years, as Esmay, visible in a small box at the bottom of the screen, rubbed his head as though he were developing a migraine. Esmay repeated his request, saying that
we cover a lot of stories; I’m just asking for you to send me that.
There were then a few uncomfortable moments as Esmay and Elam tried to figure out how to close down the Google Hangout that was hosting the debate.
Esmay: “Are we off?”
Binder: “Still says ‘live’ for me.”
Esmay: “Paul?”
Elam: “Yeah, I’m still having problem with the button.”
Esmay laughs.
Elam: “Isn’t that wonderful?”
Long silence. Esmay rocks back and forth on his chair.
Esmay: “Just close the window.”
A few moments later, he did.
I think we may need to have another AVFM graphics contest, incorporating what I think should be AVFM’s new slogans:
“I’m still having problem with the button.”
“We are an all-volunteer organization and we don’t see every story.”
A Voice for Men is clearly not ready for its closeup.
Nevermind, Elam looks too much like my dad and it’s triggering the fuck out of me. X_X I don’t want to hear his voice and associate it with his appearance.
From the few minutes I managed to listen to, you aren’t missing anything.
Thanks, Ally. I have it bookmarked now.
I am sorry it was triggering for you. I promise you aren’t missing much. Elam just read a bunch of drivel and Matt made some valid points.
I’m just exciting it is sowing descent among the ranks. Literally nothing AVFM has done post-conference has been respectable, and it’s about time some of these MRAs take a hard look at their movement.
I finally watched the Elliot Rodger part and the closing statements. Hilarious. Binder made a total ass of them and reading the transcript didn’t compare to the glory of seeing the video.
I was wondering if one of you fine ladies and gents could give me some GPS coordinates to the amazing land of male privilege where physical appearance doesn’t matter for men. As someone whose physical appearance has been criticized frequently by both men and women and as someone who stands in front of the mirror everyday and criticizes my body for being ugly, I would love to move there.
Do you know what your problem is? You guys look at the experiences of small subsets of men and then universalize those experiences to all men. You treat men as a giant collective instead of as individuals. You see lower class men looking like slobs, so you assume that nobody cares what men look like. You ignore the fact that lower class women can look like slobs and get away it. You see the top 0.000001% of men with power and you assume that all men have power and that these men at the top represent my interests as a man. How about you treat us like individual people instead of as a group?
@WatermelonSugar
Thanks for the link! Here are some quotes:
“Elam walked right into his trap. A trap that I saw coming and didnt refute the accusation of Stefan Molyneux being A) an MRA or B) being taken out of context. He didnt question the BS studies Binder brought up about in the end. He spoke from a script FFS and looked rattled from the get go. Binder was on the offensive, whether he was honest or not, all hour & Binder got off completely. I bet Binder makes a clip of Elam not being able to tell the difference between Stefan and Elliot Rodger as a victory.”
“True, but Binder doesn’t represent a movement. Elam does.”
Reply: “Well it’s not like public opinion can go any lower.”
Heh. True, dat.
“My only problem was that Paul did not seem to put a lot of energy into it. He acted like an old professor reading from his dusty tome of pre-written answers.”
“Binder was young, dynamic. Elam was old and boring.”
“Elam needs an apprentice. Somebody young and charismatic.”
“I was rooting for Paul but Mr. Binder was just running circles over him. Yeah, he may have used some low blows and told lies about the MRA but it’s our job as the more mature and smarter ones to dominate these feminists even with their lies.”
Bwahaha!
I poked around the forums a little more and stumbled across this posted by “The King who cannot move”:
Just try it, bucko.
How human rights-y.
Seriously, though, sorry they’re targeting you. How dare you, you know, disagree with them in comments sections. You’re like some kind of fascist or something.
Ooooh, Pauly’s not going to like the implications that he’s past it and they need fresh blood in their *cough* leadership *cough*. Wonder if there’ll be a new round of bannings.
Delurkers all, hi! Have a Welcome Package!
@Auntie–
Those are gems, right? My personal favorite parts are when they start creep shaming SM, because apparently creep shaming men is only psychologically damaging and the-absolute-worst-kind-of-shaming-ever if it is done by the Evil Empire and is super legit criticism when employed by MRAs discussing other MRAs. Or when they accuse SM of cash-grabbing without actually doing anything for men’s rights, because that sounds nothing at all like a certain AVFM owner.
And I see you everywhere on articles and treads. It makes me so happy. I say keep up the good work, especially if it ruffles the misters’ feathers.
Especially given that they only know this because they turn up in the same comment sections. Or the comment section of anything having to do with feminism.
But seriously, I’ve been logging into Disqus with my Facebook to argue with these guys, including Attila and Fidelbogen – don’t think I’ll be doing that any more. Probably shouldn’t have been doing it at all, but I didn’t think I’d be worth harassing, and anyway I’ve put enough identifying info on this blog that someone so inclined could easily find me. Oops.
Thanks, cloudiah. It’s probably nothing. I’m curious to know what that dude’s Disqus user name is. I challenged them by posting that quote in the comments on the article he was complaining about. I saw someone typing a reply and then nothing was posted so I guess that person had second thoughts.
@WatermelonSugar
Ha! They’re so lacking in self-awareness.
Fighting with them in the comments amuses me. Occasionally an opportunity presents itself to cause dissent within their ranks or to prod them into doing something really dumb. It actually worked a couple of times so it was all worth it.
I wonder if the AVfM guys will get their supersleuth JB on the Case of the Alias of Auntie Alias. I can see it now; she shows up in another comment thread, apropos of nothing, and starts telling us: “I’m really worried about Auntie Alias. If anyone knows her on Facebook, I really think you should go message her there. I don’t know if she did anything, but she did something, I’m sure. I don’t think she knows how serious this could be. So you should go message her. I’d do it myself, but she won’t listen to me. I’m really worried, I mean, she might get into big trouble, expressing opinions and things like that. I thought you guys would want to help!”
Seriously, though, Auntie Alias, sorry and bravo. Bravo because you’re getting the misters in a tizzy, and sorry that one of them is targeting you for the horrible crime of saying things while feminist.
It should be smart, not smarter. If these guys want to fancy themselves the wise ones, they really ought to learn grammar. It would be much more convincing that way.
@emilygoddess
Oops, indeed. Hopefully nothing will come of it.
I’m not on Facebook or Twitter and have no blog. I’ve deliberately never disclosed what province I live in.
One thing I learned recently from someone who moderates a site using Disqus is that site moderators can view the email address you registered with Disqus as well as your IP address. I was floored! Thankfully, I never posted a comment on AVFM or any other misogynist site.
RE: Apophis
I was wondering if one of you fine ladies and gents could give me some GPS coordinates to the amazing land of male privilege where physical appearance doesn’t matter for men.
That would actually require you to understand what male privilege is. Here, my son, have a nice handy link. Hint: just because you have male privilege doesn’t mean bad shit can’t happen to you. I’m a dude. I’ve been homeless, and poor, and all that jazz. I still got male privilege.
Do you know what your problem is?
No, but I’m sure you’re going to tell us.
You ignore the fact that lower class women can look like slobs and get away it.
Dude. DUDE. On behalf of my working class relatives, go fuck a cactus.
How about you treat us like individual people instead of as a group?
Sweet honey child, the Mammoths here have no trouble treating me or the other guys here as individuals. What am I, chopped liver?
If anyone has ever posted personal info here and regretted it, I know David can edit comments. So email him if there are particular comments sharing information you now regret sharing.
Is Apophis trying to claim that women don’t get scrutinized for our appearances? What world is he living in? What a clueless idiot.
How did I miss Apophis?
You mean like MRAs treat women as individuals and never make generalizations about them as a group? Oh, wait…
Apophis is more fun if you read him as Apophis, the evil Goa’uld false-god from Stargate.
I know I’m probably being horribly insensitive to the true roots of the name, and if there are any folks who hold fast and worship Apophis and family, then I apologize in advance.
I just can’t help myself.
“Not all goa’ulds! Some are Tok’ra! I’m not; but some are! Bow before your God!”
I’m a terrible person.
@Apophis
Being criticized for looking ugly doesn’t cancel out your male privilege. It sucks that you face such a thing, but it doesn’t make you oppressed. Sorry to burst your bubble. Fortunately, you don’t need to move anywhere because you already have male privilege. You already benefit from women’s oppression just because of being a man. Neat, huh?
Fashion policing doesn’t affect men the way it affects women, regardless of class. Men, while not immune to fashion policing, are faced with far more lenient standards of beauty and modesty. Beauty and modesty are pushed on women to a far greater extent, and so they face worse fashion policing than men.
Also, men do have power – as men. Just because not all men are at the top doesn’t mean that they don’t possess institutionalized power over all women because of being male. Class is not the only axis of power in society. Further, it doesn’t matter whether your interests are represented by the minority of men in power because that is a class issue, not a gender issue. Women’s interests aren’t fully represented by the (far smaller) minority of women in power, either.
So yeah, drop the mansplaining and half-baked class analysis and start trying to gain a better understanding of feminist theory. Because you clearly don’t know shit.
Oh, and fuck your classist description of lower class people as well. You aren’t proving yourself to actually give a shit about class issues.
Ah, I see I set off another dudebro on an angry rant. Just doing my job, folks.
(I am probably the shallowest, most looks-focused woman on this blog, and even I know that in general men get away with being total slobs in comparison with the standards women are held to. Pull the other one, angry man, it’s got bells on.)
Wow, that took off a lot more than I thought it would. Those are three things (shaving, keeping my clothes nice, and sitting still, less the third these days) I, personally, have trouble with due to MY ADD. I didn’t mean to imply they were universal as symptoms or the only explanation for Esmay’s Esmayness (I don’t even particularly dislike Esmay compared to most MRA ‘celebs’, partly because his general oddness makes it easier to think him somewhat confused rather than just hateful). It was speculation, obviously, but more as a personal reflection/musing than anything else. It’s the last line I wrote because it didn’t even pop into my head until after I wrote the other stuff.
This will sound pass-agg and I barely ever post so I don’t know if this is out of line, but I’m honestly a bit offended at the implication I was being ableist and/or stigmatizing in some way, when the reason it occurred to me at all is that they’re things I do because of my disorder. I mean I got no interest in starting a grudge here, but if I say ‘hey, all these things he’s doing are things I sometimes do as a result of my disorder’ and someone responds ‘That’s pretty offensive to people with that disorder, because those are all horrible things (which you just said you do and attributed to the disorder)’, what exactly is that saying to me?
Apophis, eh? Not the smartest nym to choose, given what happened to him. Don’t mess with the cat goddess, sonny.
I LOL’d. And as this is the second SG-1 reference I’ve seen today, it’s obviously a sign from the Universe that I should revisit this show I was so obsessed with in middle and high school.