So, that happened.
The debate between Matt Binder (from the Majority Report) and Paul Elam (from A Pile of Money for Paul Elam) went off yesterday. I can’t say it went off without a hitch, because it was actually quite hitch-full. Indeed, it was kind of a disaster — at least for one Paul Elam.
Paul’s the one who wanted the debate. He chose the topic, he chose the format, he controlled the venue. And he lost the debate rather spectacularly, grimly reading a succession of prepared statements while Binder shot down his arguments with common-sensical one-lines and raised issues that Elam didn’t or couldn’t address.
Binder rattled Elam early by presenting him with an unattributed quote that sounded virtually identical to Elliot Rodger’s misogynistic rants and which Elam dismissed as something that no MRA would ever say; Binder then revealed that it was a quote from Stefan Molyneux, the MRA “philosopher” who was one of the featured speakers at AVFM’s recent conference. (Indeed, it was a quote that I highlighted in my first Misogyny Theater videos on Mr. M.)
Then, after Elam read off a list of all the various women who have associated themselves in some way with AVFM, Binder knocked the wind out of him by asking, quite simply, so what?
The most surreal moment, in a debate full of surreal moments, came 39 minutes into the debate. Binder had spent much of his previous two segments discussing an assortment of issues that the Men’s Rights movement largely ignores, even though they primarily affect men, and men of color in particular — from stop and frisk policies in major cities to the deaths of American soldiers in wars overseas.
But instead of answering Binder’s question –why hasn’t the Men’s Rights movement actually tried to do something about these problems? — Elam instead read his prepared “closing statement,” responding not to anything Binder had argued but to the arguments Elam, writing the statement before the debate, had assumed he would make.
And so, after hearing Binder passionately argue that the MRM needs to fight for the rights of men in prison and for the lives of men sent to fight and possibly die in wars, we heard Elam beating away on a straw man, declaring — after calling him a bigot — that Binder
has been led to believe, quite falsely, that gender justice mandates the summary rejection of all men’s problems in favor of a view that can only see men as the problem.
The debate, such as it was, lurched to its conclusion in an assortment of miscues and technical glitches a few minutes later. Dean Esmay, the incompetent and often ineffectual “moderator” of the debate, rocking back and forth on his chair in a darkened room, eyes mostly closed, plaintively asked Binder to send him “that particular story” on stop and frisk in New York city that Binder had referred to earlier in the debate. Esmay, defensive and exasperated, explained that
we are an all-volunteer organization and we don’t see every story. I’d like to see that story from Matt, please do send it to me.
Binder, incredulous, pointed out that stop and frisk has been in the headlines for years, as Esmay, visible in a small box at the bottom of the screen, rubbed his head as though he were developing a migraine. Esmay repeated his request, saying that
we cover a lot of stories; I’m just asking for you to send me that.
There were then a few uncomfortable moments as Esmay and Elam tried to figure out how to close down the Google Hangout that was hosting the debate.
Esmay: “Are we off?”
Binder: “Still says ‘live’ for me.”
Esmay: “Paul?”
Elam: “Yeah, I’m still having problem with the button.”
Esmay laughs.
Elam: “Isn’t that wonderful?”
Long silence. Esmay rocks back and forth on his chair.
Esmay: “Just close the window.”
A few moments later, he did.
I think we may need to have another AVFM graphics contest, incorporating what I think should be AVFM’s new slogans:
“I’m still having problem with the button.”
“We are an all-volunteer organization and we don’t see every story.”
A Voice for Men is clearly not ready for its closeup.
I know that I often am hyper vigilant about eating disorder red flags. I would never accuse someone of being anorexic simply for being skinny. It’s the behavior and attitudes towards eating and food. Sometimes I see it in people who are really hyped up over a fad diet and declare food groups good or bad. I try to keep it to myself a little bit in case I’m wrong but there’s been so many times I’ve been right about people. I recognize the signs because I’ve had those behaviors and thoughts too. You have to be careful though. I don’t like diagnosing people on sight alone. Just as you can’t tell from weight or body type if someone has an ED you can’t assume a slovenly appearance means someone as ADHD or depression. I say when in doubt, zip it.
@emilygoddess
Yes. The same reasoning actually applies when speculating about whether someone is disabled. As a disabled person, I feel much safer around other people who are disabled for obvious reasons. Of course disabled people are capable of being shitty to me as well, but that’s besides the point.
I think Eliot Rodger did probably struggle with mental illness, it just baseless, lazy and insulting to say his shooting spree was crazy.
I have to say this website has been allowed me to see to what degree people, including myself in the past, will label a wide variety of behavior and thinking as crazy because it’s a quick way to stigmatize people we dislike or disdain. To realize that I used mental illness to do that, despite struggling with it myself for decades, was a disturbing and bracing personal revelation. I use to say “batshit crazy” a lot, I just never used it to describe people suffering from the same mental illnesses I did or those I could relate to.
THIS.
I feel like when you only focus on negative outward symptoms, it completely erases the negative inward symptoms of the individual in question.
As in–“he can’t wear a clean shirt because ADD/ADHD” doesn’t consider how difficult it is for that individual to struggle with basic things like laundry, or “she has really let herself go because depression” doesn’t consider how terrible it feels to be so depressed that personal care feels overwhelming. “Because X appearance/trait” doesn’t speak to any mental or emotional connection of the individual in question.
Does that even make sense? I don’t know. These things are hard.
In the opposite direction, positive traits can also be used just as negatively. I can’t tell you how many times I heard “you’re so smart, why can’t you just do your homework” growing up. It didn’t make me feel smart or do my homework, but set me up with a really strong negative core belief that I am somehow defective for not being able to do certain things and that failing to do them makes me not smart.
@Ally, as a mentally ill person, I’m not comfortable with people attempting armchair diagnoses of people they dislike, if that makes sense. Like, if I have a friend and say “Ooh, they might be on the autism spectrum too!” that’s fine, but it’s not okay for me to read an MRA’s posts or watch a video of him etc etc and say the same thing.
Also, male privilege. Men can get away with being complete slobs about their appearance, and they know this. Coming from an aggressively misogynistic man a lack of attention to personal grooming could well be a way of asserting privilege, whether consciously or unconsciously, in a way that’s not unrelated to the PUA tendency to nitpick at women’s looks in an attempt to reinforce the social assumption that women’s looks matter and men’s don’t.
Which is also just a theory that I have no way to confirm without actually meeting and talking to the guy, but hey, it sure beats pretending to be his doctor over the internetz. It’s one thing to think that you spot an issue that you have yourself in someone else and want to reach out to them because you like them and want to help, but quite another to make the same diagnosis in an attempt to gotcha them as part of an internet argument.
Yes. This. All of this. Because a that point, it becomes an insult and not an illness.
Thank you, Leum. That is exactly what I have been trying to spit out.
@Leum
In many cases, I agree. For instance, I certainly wouldn’t feel comfortable saying that Paul Elam is “obviously sociopathic” because he’s an asshole. This is definitely a tricky matter with no totally clear answers, so I’m sorry if I sounded like I was saying that it’s always okay for disabled people to armchair-diagnose someone else. Mentally ill people are capable of being disablist as well.
@Leum
Upon a more careful reading of your comment, I find myself agreeing completely. An autistic person suspecting that someone else may be autistic is nothing like saying that an MRA is a terrible person because of a mental illness. I’m definitely not advocating the latter.
I’m a big fan of politeness, there are very few things more annoying than an immature nitwit bragging about being a “equal opportunity offender”, but I personally like to highlight how that there are good persuasive arguments to be made against ableism, racism, sexism, etc. It’s important to counter the PC myth that progressives are simply censoring themselves to seem open minded and minorities are making irrational demands based on feels. I’ve seen the 4chan hoax minority women accounts on twitter and tumblr, and, contrary to anti-SJ caterwauling, they’re easy to spot because it’s just shitbag parodies thrown together by ignorant jagoffs.
I’m rambling a bit, but I’m still angry at the hoax accounts exposed by #yourslipisshowing and I’m off the charts enraged at assholes claiming we have trouble telling the difference between what actual progressive minority women say and what 4chan dolt parody versions of them word vomit on social media.
I think my favorite moment of the debate was when Elam said to Binder (post Elliot Rodgers/Stefan Molyneux point), “Oh, you think you got me with that…” …or something like that. I just had to laugh and say to myself, “Yeah Paul, EVERYONE who isn’t your minion thinks he got you with that.” HA!
And seriously… AVFM isn’t aware of “stop-and-frisk” in NYC??? What kind of men’s rights movement isn’t aware of one of the biggest civil rights infringements currently happening in America targeting men? Its so crystal clear that they are completely caught up in being anti-feminist/anti-female, not with being pro men’s rights.
Long time lurker, first time poster.
I’m semi-trolling Dean Esmay in the comments section. He’s pulling out the persecution complex and comparisons to civil rights greats, as expected.
Some other guy is pulling the line that he lived near Erin Pizzey and he’s read the police report about her dog. Anybody here have some more info on that? I can’t find anything online. Was it just her word that it was the doing of feminists, or that she’s been threatened?
Katz — thanks for the QI episode advice!
“I know people who feel that way and just call themselves non-binary because, while they don’t know what exactly their gender is, they sure as hell aren’t strictly male or female.”
Leum — I’m one of those people. Once I had the “shit, you mean I don’t have to pick one?!?” lightbulb, I decided I didn’t care what label that meant I was. I toy with them sometimes, but as a semantics thing, not an identity thing.
I should be getting dressed, instead, manboobz/WHTM >.<
What are your favorite episodes?
Re: Esmay’s unshaven face — didn’t even register with me, I think my brain lumped it with my brother’s beard and ignored it! (There’s no point here, just a thing I found funny)
And whomever was joking about him turning off the lights because we mocked his curtains, it is the same room. I watched it again to torture my mother with it and since I was trying to ignore the words so as not to bias her, I caught a couple glances at the curtains, the barely lit background has the same shine the fabric of that sort of curtain has. (Also an utterly random observation.)
Katz — ones where things like this happen —
http://youtu.be/HUVBXb4XIqE
Oh please let us just make this into the random QI clips thread.
Enh, I rock sometimes.
RE: Robert Ramirez
It’s okay, dude. I’m embarrassed to share a gender with Andy Blake (though he would be horrified, just HORRIFIED to think so). There’s plenty of second-hand gendershame to go around!
RE: WWTH
I know that I often am hyper vigilant about eating disorder red flags.
Me too. There’s a reason I will probably NEVER watch the new Captain America movies.
Back on topic, there is a thread at the AVFM forums discussing this as well.
WARNING: this links to AVFM. I don’t know how to do the DoNotLink thing. If someone is able to do that, it would be awesome.
forums.avoiceformen.com/showthread.php?11595-Elam-v-some-guy-from-Sam-Seders-challenge
Some highlights:
-Saying Matt won.
-Questioning if Elam knows what he is doing.
-Calling out Molyneux for his statement/extremist ideas and wondering of MRAs should distance the movement from him or stop giving him a platform to speak.
-Questioning Anne Cools’ anti-gay marriage stance.
This debate has backfired on Elam in a big way. I am loving it.
@WatermelonSugar
You can use this website next time – it’s pretty easy to follow: http://www.donotlink.com/
There’s no way people are actually surprised that Elam can’t form a cogent argument. Like, remember that part in Logic class when they said your premises had to be true?
Neither do clams.
Wait, what?
I’m on a chair.
(This is what the debate has done to my brain AND MAGIC HELMET!!!.)
Okay, I’m going to try to watch the debate now without cringing to death.