So, that happened.
The debate between Matt Binder (from the Majority Report) and Paul Elam (from A Pile of Money for Paul Elam) went off yesterday. I can’t say it went off without a hitch, because it was actually quite hitch-full. Indeed, it was kind of a disaster — at least for one Paul Elam.
Paul’s the one who wanted the debate. He chose the topic, he chose the format, he controlled the venue. And he lost the debate rather spectacularly, grimly reading a succession of prepared statements while Binder shot down his arguments with common-sensical one-lines and raised issues that Elam didn’t or couldn’t address.
Binder rattled Elam early by presenting him with an unattributed quote that sounded virtually identical to Elliot Rodger’s misogynistic rants and which Elam dismissed as something that no MRA would ever say; Binder then revealed that it was a quote from Stefan Molyneux, the MRA “philosopher” who was one of the featured speakers at AVFM’s recent conference. (Indeed, it was a quote that I highlighted in my first Misogyny Theater videos on Mr. M.)
Then, after Elam read off a list of all the various women who have associated themselves in some way with AVFM, Binder knocked the wind out of him by asking, quite simply, so what?
The most surreal moment, in a debate full of surreal moments, came 39 minutes into the debate. Binder had spent much of his previous two segments discussing an assortment of issues that the Men’s Rights movement largely ignores, even though they primarily affect men, and men of color in particular — from stop and frisk policies in major cities to the deaths of American soldiers in wars overseas.
But instead of answering Binder’s question –why hasn’t the Men’s Rights movement actually tried to do something about these problems? — Elam instead read his prepared “closing statement,” responding not to anything Binder had argued but to the arguments Elam, writing the statement before the debate, had assumed he would make.
And so, after hearing Binder passionately argue that the MRM needs to fight for the rights of men in prison and for the lives of men sent to fight and possibly die in wars, we heard Elam beating away on a straw man, declaring — after calling him a bigot — that Binder
has been led to believe, quite falsely, that gender justice mandates the summary rejection of all men’s problems in favor of a view that can only see men as the problem.
The debate, such as it was, lurched to its conclusion in an assortment of miscues and technical glitches a few minutes later. Dean Esmay, the incompetent and often ineffectual “moderator” of the debate, rocking back and forth on his chair in a darkened room, eyes mostly closed, plaintively asked Binder to send him “that particular story” on stop and frisk in New York city that Binder had referred to earlier in the debate. Esmay, defensive and exasperated, explained that
we are an all-volunteer organization and we don’t see every story. I’d like to see that story from Matt, please do send it to me.
Binder, incredulous, pointed out that stop and frisk has been in the headlines for years, as Esmay, visible in a small box at the bottom of the screen, rubbed his head as though he were developing a migraine. Esmay repeated his request, saying that
we cover a lot of stories; I’m just asking for you to send me that.
There were then a few uncomfortable moments as Esmay and Elam tried to figure out how to close down the Google Hangout that was hosting the debate.
Esmay: “Are we off?”
Binder: “Still says ‘live’ for me.”
Esmay: “Paul?”
Elam: “Yeah, I’m still having problem with the button.”
Esmay laughs.
Elam: “Isn’t that wonderful?”
Long silence. Esmay rocks back and forth on his chair.
Esmay: “Just close the window.”
A few moments later, he did.
I think we may need to have another AVFM graphics contest, incorporating what I think should be AVFM’s new slogans:
“I’m still having problem with the button.”
“We are an all-volunteer organization and we don’t see every story.”
A Voice for Men is clearly not ready for its closeup.
Seeing how Elam spun a poorly attended/organised conference into ‘the most successful event in history EVER’ to his readers,I’m curious to see how he will deal with this over the next few days.
I really can’t see how he can make himself look good here,even to the suckers who lap up his every word without question. I’m going to enjoy watching him try though.
a ‘suggested by paul elam’ ad popped up on my screen when hit play-i almost pissed myself laughing…
My mother finds Elam creepy and wants to know what’s up with Binder’s hair and why Esmay is rocking himself to sleep. I had to pause periodically for background, hinge like Molyneux’s potential socking, all of which made her eyes go a’rolling. She even agreed with Binder at points, and agreed with me that Elam was arguing with the feminists in his head (“well, at least he was arguing with someone”)
Mission “turn my pro-life mother into a feminist” is going well!
YES!!! ToR is giving me an IP that I can watch QI from! /random
@watermelonsugar
yeah she probably would of done better, but then again i think anyone would of done better than paul.
My best approximation of The Judgiest debating:
You’re an attention whore! Men do all the work and women are not essential! I am a PhD/PhD candidate/putting my PhD on hold so I know all things, you little whore! Here, look at this random picture of a scantily-clad woman. It proved feminism is wrong, didn’t it? Is feminism even happening? #NoMra #IMIC #seemslegit!
At least Her Judginess is off-the-cuff (to an embarrassing fault) and wouldn’t read off a handful of stapled, shaking pages.
@Watermelonsuger
I always enjoy when AVfMers blather on about their website as a resource when the information on actual issues they provide is sparse, copied wholesale from other web sources, often error-ridden and incompetently analyzed.
Dean Esmay @DeanEsmay
@kimoco @ego_deaf @MattBinder We MADE that wiki, and those are references to HUNDREDS of studies. How closed-minded are you?
https://mobile.twitter.com/deanesmay/status/487377147603210240
Here’s a link to AVfM Domestic Violence wiki that Deano is trumpeting:
http://reference.avoiceformen.com/wiki/Domestic_violence_(primary)
There’s almost no analysis, just a few paragraphs with this less than stellar intro:
The annotated bibliography with “hundreds of studies” has this intro:
Basically they’re copying wholesale, with permission and a link, the working annotated bibliography of a college professor. That’s the entirety of their “research” on their DV wiki, but Binder is apparently not respectful enough of their role as an men’s advocacy group because he’s not thunderstruck by their amazing wiki.
The trouble with debates is that, while they seem like a relatively clear-cut competition, there’s nothing preventing everyone from declaring their side the winner. Even if there’s judging and a formal winner, anyone can just go “Those judges don’t know what they’re talking about, so-and-so was much more convincing.”
QI is all kinds of awesome. The Future and K-People are my favorite episodes.
The Girls and Boys episode made me sad, though, because they decided to trot out every stupid evo-psych argument in the world. Up to and including the pink berries in the forest one.
I was really happy that he brought up the whole feminists are addressing men’s issues, because it’s so incredibly against the fantasy world MRA’s live in. I mean, it makes sense, feminism is a huge and diverse movement and some of its members have the resources and know-how to address a whole lot of different things. Sometimes these things end up being men’s issues too…
It’s really sad, how little we hear from the MRA’s on what their actual real life contribution to their chosen issues are. Honestly, it’s made me want to move and DO something.
I’ve always toyed with the idea of donating to http://www.puppiesbehindbars.com… I think I’m gonna go ahead and do it!
I’m so heartbroken that JudgyB hasn’t said a peep about the debate on twitter. It’s so uncool to disappoint your fans like this Janet.
Nope, not even this display of her ever delightful wit can cheer me up.
https://mobile.twitter.com/JudgyBitch1
At least she is using “ICMI” now. During most of the High Holy ICMI, she botched the tag.
I think she touched on it a little yesterday? I stopped reading when she said this (removing other users names):
It’s funny JB has “the radical notion that women are adults” as a tagline on her blog but acts pretty childish herself. Not setting a very good example lol.
Maybe he will do a write up about how he totally won the debate so there’s no need for anyone to watch the video. I mean Elam really is bad in it. I can’t believe that even his most loyal fans,while cheering loudly on the outside every time he speaks,won’t be squirming with embarrassment at least a little bit on the inside.
Mind you there does seem to be no limit to their gullibility.
I think that when it comes to AVFM and AVFM-affiliated “staff,” it is safe to assume they actually mean the opposite of their taking point.
“I challenge you to a debate!” = *reads almost exclusively from pre-written monologues*
“We care about men!” = *laughs at prison rape jokes and doesn’t know about major issues facing men*
“We don’t hate women!” = JudgyBitch and Paulie joking about harassment and rape of THIER OWN CONFERENCE SPEAKERS on twitter right now
I wouldn’t count on it.
So much facepalm.
So upshot is Pauly tried his hand at Matt debating, but didn’t really have a grip on things and ended up in a sticky situation.
@VSir Bodsworth Ruggleby III – It took me a moment, but I see what you did there.
Yeah your right. After all these are people that give money to Elam, even though he insults them while demanding it.
sam sedar offers paul some debating advice!
Sir Bodsworth, I don’t know whether to groan or laugh evilly ‘cos I got it.
@ kittehserf — I’m just surprised no one got to it before I did!
I went to the VforM FB just to see if they mentioned this debate. No. But it’s full of those nonsensical memes still. Look at this one. They keep out WTFing themselves with these.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=677416572313827&set=a.392418540813633.89052.102001393188684&type=1&theater
Really. WTF?
@ Sir Bodsworth Rugglesby III
I’m dying.