So, that happened.
The debate between Matt Binder (from the Majority Report) and Paul Elam (from A Pile of Money for Paul Elam) went off yesterday. I can’t say it went off without a hitch, because it was actually quite hitch-full. Indeed, it was kind of a disaster — at least for one Paul Elam.
Paul’s the one who wanted the debate. He chose the topic, he chose the format, he controlled the venue. And he lost the debate rather spectacularly, grimly reading a succession of prepared statements while Binder shot down his arguments with common-sensical one-lines and raised issues that Elam didn’t or couldn’t address.
Binder rattled Elam early by presenting him with an unattributed quote that sounded virtually identical to Elliot Rodger’s misogynistic rants and which Elam dismissed as something that no MRA would ever say; Binder then revealed that it was a quote from Stefan Molyneux, the MRA “philosopher” who was one of the featured speakers at AVFM’s recent conference. (Indeed, it was a quote that I highlighted in my first Misogyny Theater videos on Mr. M.)
Then, after Elam read off a list of all the various women who have associated themselves in some way with AVFM, Binder knocked the wind out of him by asking, quite simply, so what?
The most surreal moment, in a debate full of surreal moments, came 39 minutes into the debate. Binder had spent much of his previous two segments discussing an assortment of issues that the Men’s Rights movement largely ignores, even though they primarily affect men, and men of color in particular — from stop and frisk policies in major cities to the deaths of American soldiers in wars overseas.
But instead of answering Binder’s question –why hasn’t the Men’s Rights movement actually tried to do something about these problems? — Elam instead read his prepared “closing statement,” responding not to anything Binder had argued but to the arguments Elam, writing the statement before the debate, had assumed he would make.
And so, after hearing Binder passionately argue that the MRM needs to fight for the rights of men in prison and for the lives of men sent to fight and possibly die in wars, we heard Elam beating away on a straw man, declaring — after calling him a bigot — that Binder
has been led to believe, quite falsely, that gender justice mandates the summary rejection of all men’s problems in favor of a view that can only see men as the problem.
The debate, such as it was, lurched to its conclusion in an assortment of miscues and technical glitches a few minutes later. Dean Esmay, the incompetent and often ineffectual “moderator” of the debate, rocking back and forth on his chair in a darkened room, eyes mostly closed, plaintively asked Binder to send him “that particular story” on stop and frisk in New York city that Binder had referred to earlier in the debate. Esmay, defensive and exasperated, explained that
we are an all-volunteer organization and we don’t see every story. I’d like to see that story from Matt, please do send it to me.
Binder, incredulous, pointed out that stop and frisk has been in the headlines for years, as Esmay, visible in a small box at the bottom of the screen, rubbed his head as though he were developing a migraine. Esmay repeated his request, saying that
we cover a lot of stories; I’m just asking for you to send me that.
There were then a few uncomfortable moments as Esmay and Elam tried to figure out how to close down the Google Hangout that was hosting the debate.
Esmay: “Are we off?”
Binder: “Still says ‘live’ for me.”
Esmay: “Paul?”
Elam: “Yeah, I’m still having problem with the button.”
Esmay laughs.
Elam: “Isn’t that wonderful?”
Long silence. Esmay rocks back and forth on his chair.
Esmay: “Just close the window.”
A few moments later, he did.
I think we may need to have another AVFM graphics contest, incorporating what I think should be AVFM’s new slogans:
“I’m still having problem with the button.”
“We are an all-volunteer organization and we don’t see every story.”
A Voice for Men is clearly not ready for its closeup.
Also clearly elam just wrote a blog post in retaliation to Binder then got in a pickle when he accepted the mighty debate challenge so just used his pre-prepared post but in debate format. Thoroughly embarrassing.
@pecunium–
OH DUH, how silly of me. Journalists directly quoting speakers from the Conference to End All Conferences hosted by The Smartest, Most Activist-est Man Alive and questioning the validity of those quotes is dangerous. Silly me!
I am also trying desperately not to make a sexual joke out of Elam having trouble with the button.
@daintydougal
I, too, wondered about Esmay’s health.
Pecunium — that would at least explain the lack of cat! As for Elam, that’s almost weirder, I can almost see him going “yeah whatever dear”, but the idea that he either approves of design that doesn’t suck, tolerates it enough not to clutter it (that room is infinitely cleaner than I’d expect), or, fuck, may actually have put that together himself?! Now my head hurts!
You notice his bookshelf? (Of course you did, what am I saying?) It’s like that whole room is a prop. (Versus Binder’s, which was a prop, but looks like a lived in dorm room.)
Daintydougal — while I was questioning that myself, his reaction to Binder attempting to explain about stop & frisk makes me think he was just massively annoyed.
And my mother just bailed on watching it, she says she’ll do so after dinner. She’s going to kill me once she’s actually watching it!
I wish I could volunteer for $80,000 a year.
@Sarah
YES. He could have made it even better with his extra long tie.
As usual, Paul Elam (or should that be E-lamb) sounded like a Brezhnev-era apparatchik giving the party line. Dean ‘Eyes Wide Shut’ Esmey should give up with the sun-bed, or at least get his blood pressure checked. He must be learning the Quran too, that is what the rocking backwards and forwards was all about.
E-lamb was destroyed when he failed to tell the difference between the quotes of a nut case and Stefan Molyneux – in fact, both quotes are from utter nut-cases. Binder should have ended the so called debate right there, everything after was superfluous with Elam resorting to the ‘you are a fascist’ rhetoric when he himself is a practising fascist. Pot calling kettle black eh?
E-lamb thanked his supporters by a) not bothering to memorise his lines and b) his hands shaking uncontrollably whilst holding his notes. That’s what $84k gets you, a poor value for money excuse for a leader.
A half-decent Billy Connolly lookalike Elam is, but that’s about it.
Binder did correctly point out how most MRAs don’t want to know about the real issues facing men, and also how they shy away from any good news. I experienced such things whilst running MGTOW Forums, when there was something good to report no-one commented, no-one wanted to know. Most of them thrived on hate, an unhealthy interest in rape articles and lived for the feud.
Binder should have asked Elam: “what will you do when Feminism is banned?”. Answer would probably have been: “seeing as I’m useless, have no skills, no pension and can only function as a shit-stirrer, I will probably become one of the many drunks one notices sleeping rough in a major City”.
All the best,
Nacho Vidal
P.S. MGTOW Forums will be returning in the near future.
God that justification for laughing at the guy’s son potentially being raped is horrible. It makes no sense.
Seriously? He never heard of “stop and frisk”? I live out in the boonies and I’ve heard of stop and frisk. It’s not just “a” story — it’s a longstanding, ongoing issue that dates back to the Guiliani administration for crying out loud!
Way to be — what — 12 years behind!
Oh dear, Dean’s shirt.
Maybe his long tie from earlier was covering up a stain.
Doing laundry is misandry!
Clarence Darrow made stained shirts work but Dean Esmay is no Clarence Darrow.
@Sarah
I guess this red pill tee was cleaner than his beloved FTSU one.
Loved the decor in Esmay’s man-cave: Early Blair Witch Project.
He looks like a kidnapping victim in a ransom video.
Whoops, I just realized you were discussing Esmay’s shirt. I do think the decision to wear a red pill tee shirt is worse than having shirt stains. Does AVfM sell red pill memorabilia or is that just a shout out to his TeRPer brethren? A good look either way Paul.
Paul fucking Elam saying “but if we don’t get past this, this base juvenile demonisation of people for not falling in our camp… [solutions can’t be found to things like rape and IPV].”
LOL
And then in the closing arguments, he sneers at Matt’s youth. Stay classy Paul.
The problem here is that Elam and his pals are living in their own reality. They only see what they want to see and only hear what they want to hear, and everything they see and hear is ‘proof’ that they’re either right, or they’re being persecuted. When someone punctures the bubble for a moment, they can’t cope.
It’s next to impossible to have rational conversations with people caught up in cult-like thinking. That’s why relatives go to extremes like kidnapping loved ones and putting them through brutal deprogramming.
MRAs don’t know what to do with themselves without the flame throwing, misogynistic one-liners designed for a laugh. Elam & Company are out of their league. Between the pathetic conference and this, it’s pretty obvious they don’t know how to do much.
Can you just imagine the name-calling if Binder had been a woman showing him up so badly?
Mean-spirited, misogynistic loudmouth ==/== intelligent, knows-the-facts debater.
May gods bless you, Matt Binder.
@bodycrimes
I couldn’t agree more. I think what people were seeing in terms of Esmay’s health is anxiety. Like you mentioned, when a little reality sinks in, people like them usually can’t deal.
Zero results on AVFM for “Stop and Frisk” *about* Stop and Frisk btw.
Judgeybitch has her post about the debate titled “watch paul elam school some little punk who didn’t like the men’s conference” LOL. (i think it was posted before the debate but still hilarious)
http://youtu.be/04Zsw3rQGio
Oh, The Judgy One. I have a stony, hardened place in my heart for her. I love that she was offered up for debate by Paul. I hate to say it, but I think she would have done a much better job, even if every other word was “whore” or “slut.”
Is it bad that I miss her trolling here? I would love to ask her about her Conference to End All Conference’s closing statement about how doxxing is super legit.