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How to Lose a Debate in 45 Minutes: Paul Elam fumbles his debate with Matt Binder

So, that happened.

The debate between Matt Binder (from the Majority Report) and Paul Elam (from A Pile of Money for Paul Elam) went off yesterday. I can’t say it went off without a hitch, because it was actually quite hitch-full. Indeed, it was kind of a disaster — at least for one Paul Elam.

Paul’s the one who wanted the debate. He chose the topic, he chose the format, he controlled the venue. And he lost the debate rather spectacularly, grimly reading a succession of prepared statements while Binder shot down his arguments with common-sensical one-lines and raised issues that Elam didn’t or couldn’t address.

Binder rattled Elam early by presenting him with an unattributed quote that sounded virtually identical to Elliot Rodger’s misogynistic rants and which Elam dismissed as something that no MRA would ever say; Binder then revealed that it was a quote from Stefan Molyneux, the MRA “philosopher” who was one of the featured speakers at AVFM’s recent conference. (Indeed, it was a quote that I highlighted in my first Misogyny Theater videos on Mr. M.)

Then, after Elam read off a list of all the various women who have associated themselves in some way with AVFM, Binder knocked the wind out of him by asking, quite simply, so what?

The most surreal moment, in a debate full of surreal moments, came 39 minutes into the debate. Binder had spent much of his previous two segments discussing an assortment of issues that the Men’s Rights movement largely ignores, even though they primarily affect men, and men of color in particular — from stop and frisk policies in major cities to the deaths of American soldiers in wars overseas.

But instead of answering Binder’s question –why hasn’t the Men’s Rights movement actually tried to do something about these problems? — Elam instead read his prepared “closing statement,” responding not to anything Binder had argued but to the arguments Elam, writing the statement before the debate, had assumed he would make.

And so, after hearing Binder passionately argue that the MRM needs to fight for the rights of men in prison and for the lives of men sent to fight and possibly die in wars, we heard Elam beating away on a straw man, declaring — after calling him a bigot — that Binder

has been led to believe, quite falsely, that gender justice mandates the summary rejection of all men’s problems in favor of a view that can only see men as the problem.

The debate, such as it was, lurched to its conclusion in an assortment of miscues and technical glitches a few minutes later. Dean Esmay, the incompetent and often ineffectual “moderator” of the debate, rocking back and forth on his chair in a darkened room, eyes mostly closed, plaintively asked Binder to send him “that particular story” on stop and frisk in New York city that Binder had referred to earlier in the debate. Esmay, defensive and exasperated, explained that

we are an all-volunteer organization and we don’t see every story. I’d like to see that story from Matt, please do send it to me.

Binder, incredulous, pointed out that stop and frisk has been in the headlines for years, as Esmay, visible in a small box at the bottom of the screen, rubbed his head as though he were developing a migraine. Esmay repeated his request, saying that

we cover a lot of stories; I’m just asking for you to send me that.

There were then a few uncomfortable moments as Esmay and Elam tried to figure out how to close down the Google Hangout that was hosting the debate.

Esmay: “Are we off?”

Binder: “Still says ‘live’ for me.”

Esmay: “Paul?”

Elam: “Yeah, I’m still having problem with the button.”

Esmay laughs.

Elam: “Isn’t that wonderful?”

Long silence. Esmay rocks back and forth on his chair.

Esmay: “Just close the window.”

A few moments later, he did.

I think we may need to have another AVFM graphics contest, incorporating what I think should be AVFM’s new slogans:

“I’m still having problem with the button.”

“We are an all-volunteer organization and we don’t see every story.”

A Voice for Men is clearly not ready for its closeup.

 

 

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zoon echon logon
zoon echon logon
10 years ago

The best part is when women respond by saying “No, that is not my fantasy – here’s what I actually care about” and they respond to that with “No you don’t! Lies! Let me tell you again what you really want.”

One of the fundamental tenants of all redpill/PUA/etc. stuff is to never listen to what women have to say as a source of information about what women think. (see http://redpillpushers.wordpress.com/2013/11/16/red-pill-rules-post-2/ )

The ability to ignore any conflicting evidence is a built-in feature of their world view. It’s so true that no possible evidence could disprove it! It’s, like, the truthiest truth that ever truthed!

zoon echon logon
zoon echon logon
10 years ago

(That link is just a random example, all redpill stuff has something similar.)

Woody
Woody
10 years ago

“Dean Esmay, the incompetent and often ineffectual “moderator” of the debate, rocking back and forth on his chair in a darkened room, eyes mostly closed,”

I don’t think you’re in the best position to be mocking Dean for awkward television appearances.

katz
10 years ago

ZEL: That’s…real? Poe’s Law strikes again.

bluecatbabe
bluecatbabe
10 years ago

“It’s like the obsession with enormous penises, isn’t it? Actually more of a man thing than a woman thing,”

In my admittedly not statistically-significant experience from my wild years: too big can be just unfeasible, whereas too small for feasibility I have never encountered.

I had a thing with a sweet and lovely guy for a while but sex was really offputtingly difficult due to his proportions. There was really only one position possible for piv – or p partially in v, which was all we could manage without horrible pain. Never having had a large pile driver bashing against my cervix before, I was really unprepared for just how painful and seriously un-on-turning it is. Bruising there seems to last a long time.

Oral sex – forget it, unless I could unhinge my jaw to order.

Aesthetically pleasing – not exactly, it was kind of horrific at first sight, due partly to some strange effects of the circumcision he’d had which made it appear particoloured.

It was a pity, as he was a very attractive personality, and he really didn’t get off on hurting me, but that and some other issues meant we kind of gave up on the sex thing.

contrapangloss
10 years ago

Okay, generally dislike maroon5, but I was really feeling the Bassoon5.

That video is brilliant! Day, made.

Puddleglum
10 years ago

Aaaand now I have Spice Girls running through my head. Thanks a lot, Fibinachi.

Binjabreel
Binjabreel
10 years ago

@Fibinachi:

IB!! Fuck yes, I attended a tiny IB high school in the USA, it beat the pants off what usually passes for advanced classes.

Ron Paul once condemned it on the Senate floor for indoctrinating American students with multiculturalism and world peace.

Fibinachi
10 years ago

zoon echon logon:

Huh. Well that’s just… wow.

2) If a woman rejects you, it doesn’t matter what her stated reason is…there’s only one real reason and it’s the same for every woman: it’s because you don’t make her panties wet enough.

I don’t mean to quibble with grandstanding philosophers so much smarter than this mere Fibi who never knows if he actually has a high school diploma or not, yet isn’t that sort of self evident? I mean, it’s hardly some grand rule that if people reject you romantically it’s because they’re not interested in you romantically. Or that if they don’t want to have sex with you it’s because they don’t want to have sex with you. The reason I don’t eat fish is because I don’t like eating fish. Also the tiny Argenti in my head just sort of mutters disappointedly when I think about it.

S’is hardly a good organizing principle for a philosophical movement, is what I’m saying.

7) NEVER ask a woman for advice about anything, but ESPECIALLY relationships.

What about like, higher level mathematics? The optimal point buy distribution for a low powered paladin in a campaign based on the d20 system? Interesting Russian poetry.

Hey, Katz, what’s some interesting russian poetry?

What about directions? Or how much a thing costs in a store? I’m normally fine with the red pill ideology of not trusting what women say about relationships because the point of it is that they can’t be trusted with those, so at least that’s consistent.This is just going a little too far. What’s an alpha man playah expected to do here? Growl quietly at any women that passes by in the street until he finds someone he cannot immediately identify as a female, and then proceed to ask this person for directions? Could really mean being lost in a city for a long, long time. Good thing all alphas are so self-determined and self-sufficient.

Does the red pill list rule 9 as “Always carry surplus water and beef jerky”? Because it really should.

Fibinachi
10 years ago

@Fibinachi:

IB!! Fuck yes, I attended a tiny IB high school in the USA, it beat the pants off what usually passes for advanced classes.

Ron Paul once condemned it on the Senate floor for indoctrinating American students with multiculturalism and world peace.

A fellow IB knower?
[complicated handsign]

Or as Wikipedia proudly declares:

The IBDP, in the United States, has been accused in the past of being Marxist, foreign, globalist, and anti-American

@Puddleglum.

I’m sorry. If it’s any consolation, I suffer wit you.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
10 years ago

I think the problem here is that from a red pill perspective women not wanting to have sex with men because they’re not attracted to the men in question is a sin against societal order, nature, and presumably Keanu-Jesus. Sex isn’t supposed to be something we do because we like it, it’s supposed to be something done to use for someone else’s benefit, and thus we’re upsetting the proper order of things by wanting to decide who we fuck.

Unimaginative
10 years ago

Holy crap, I didn’t know about Keanu-Jesus. Woot! My evening is made 🙂

Unimaginative
10 years ago

BTW, Keanu is *totally* my type. What can I say, I was a teenager in the 80’s.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
10 years ago

I think that Keanu may actually have helped influence and set my type for life. Let’s just say that seeing him run around in that tight wetsuit in Point break made a big impression on me.

Unimaginative
10 years ago

OMG yes. Point Break. Sigh. I need to track that down and watch it again.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
10 years ago

And then there was River Phoenix representing for the troubled, sensitive pretty boys. Keanu, meanwhile, seems to have always been kind of a laid-back hippie dude.

Note the complete lack of what PUAs would refer to as alphas in this picture.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
10 years ago

It’s funny, you know. The moment I saw the promos for Point Break I knew a woman had to have been responsible for them. The way that movie is shot is pretty much a tribute to the pleasure that straight/bi women take in looking at beautiful men.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
10 years ago

BTW, present for Unimaginative.

(This is going to end up on Reddit too, isn’t it? OMG, women openly lusting over men, this is an outrage!)

Unimaginative
10 years ago

Okay, see you all later, I have a movie to watch 😀 Thanks!

Flying Mouse
Flying Mouse
10 years ago

Holy cats, Cassandrakitty, I think you found a copy with Bosnian subtitles. I’m working on improving my very tenuous grasp of the language in preparation for our triumphant tour of Mr. FM’s homeland next summer. So now that the kids are in bed, I must table all other projects and watch this. It’s not classic entertainment, it’s a language lesson!

Flying Mouse
Flying Mouse
10 years ago

Shut up, Woody.

DJG
DJG
10 years ago

@cassandrakitty – Have you lifted your exclusion of gay men from the fitness cover portion of the conversation and its tributaries? (I don’t want to speak out of turn.)

kittehserf MOD
kittehserf MOD
10 years ago

The best part is when women respond by saying “No, that is not my fantasy – here’s what I actually care about” and they respond to that with “No you don’t! Lies! Let me tell you again what you really want.”

Not only that, they follow it up with whining about how said fantasy makes it impossible for an Ordinary Nice Decent Guy to get laid.

Keanu … well, apart from the age thing, first film I saw him in was Bram Stoker’s Dracula, so he didn’t have chance, being up against Gary Oldman in his grey suit and blue glasses and THAT CURLY HAIR OMG. I remember the collective gasp in the cinema with that first back shot when he meets Mina in London.

I liked Keanu in The Lake House, though.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
10 years ago

@DJC

We here at Horny Moviegoers Anonymous welcome contributions from our gay members.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
10 years ago

The Replacements was also the only sports movie other than Slapshot that I’ve ever enjoyed. Keanu-Jesus strikes again.

(The Bosnian subtitles were an accident, btw, but apparently a lucky one.)

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