So, that happened.
The debate between Matt Binder (from the Majority Report) and Paul Elam (from A Pile of Money for Paul Elam) went off yesterday. I can’t say it went off without a hitch, because it was actually quite hitch-full. Indeed, it was kind of a disaster — at least for one Paul Elam.
Paul’s the one who wanted the debate. He chose the topic, he chose the format, he controlled the venue. And he lost the debate rather spectacularly, grimly reading a succession of prepared statements while Binder shot down his arguments with common-sensical one-lines and raised issues that Elam didn’t or couldn’t address.
Binder rattled Elam early by presenting him with an unattributed quote that sounded virtually identical to Elliot Rodger’s misogynistic rants and which Elam dismissed as something that no MRA would ever say; Binder then revealed that it was a quote from Stefan Molyneux, the MRA “philosopher” who was one of the featured speakers at AVFM’s recent conference. (Indeed, it was a quote that I highlighted in my first Misogyny Theater videos on Mr. M.)
Then, after Elam read off a list of all the various women who have associated themselves in some way with AVFM, Binder knocked the wind out of him by asking, quite simply, so what?
The most surreal moment, in a debate full of surreal moments, came 39 minutes into the debate. Binder had spent much of his previous two segments discussing an assortment of issues that the Men’s Rights movement largely ignores, even though they primarily affect men, and men of color in particular — from stop and frisk policies in major cities to the deaths of American soldiers in wars overseas.
But instead of answering Binder’s question –why hasn’t the Men’s Rights movement actually tried to do something about these problems? — Elam instead read his prepared “closing statement,” responding not to anything Binder had argued but to the arguments Elam, writing the statement before the debate, had assumed he would make.
And so, after hearing Binder passionately argue that the MRM needs to fight for the rights of men in prison and for the lives of men sent to fight and possibly die in wars, we heard Elam beating away on a straw man, declaring — after calling him a bigot — that Binder
has been led to believe, quite falsely, that gender justice mandates the summary rejection of all men’s problems in favor of a view that can only see men as the problem.
The debate, such as it was, lurched to its conclusion in an assortment of miscues and technical glitches a few minutes later. Dean Esmay, the incompetent and often ineffectual “moderator” of the debate, rocking back and forth on his chair in a darkened room, eyes mostly closed, plaintively asked Binder to send him “that particular story” on stop and frisk in New York city that Binder had referred to earlier in the debate. Esmay, defensive and exasperated, explained that
we are an all-volunteer organization and we don’t see every story. I’d like to see that story from Matt, please do send it to me.
Binder, incredulous, pointed out that stop and frisk has been in the headlines for years, as Esmay, visible in a small box at the bottom of the screen, rubbed his head as though he were developing a migraine. Esmay repeated his request, saying that
we cover a lot of stories; I’m just asking for you to send me that.
There were then a few uncomfortable moments as Esmay and Elam tried to figure out how to close down the Google Hangout that was hosting the debate.
Esmay: “Are we off?”
Binder: “Still says ‘live’ for me.”
Esmay: “Paul?”
Elam: “Yeah, I’m still having problem with the button.”
Esmay laughs.
Elam: “Isn’t that wonderful?”
Long silence. Esmay rocks back and forth on his chair.
Esmay: “Just close the window.”
A few moments later, he did.
I think we may need to have another AVFM graphics contest, incorporating what I think should be AVFM’s new slogans:
“I’m still having problem with the button.”
“We are an all-volunteer organization and we don’t see every story.”
A Voice for Men is clearly not ready for its closeup.
I’m pretty sure Robenric is Paul Elam’s sockpuppet.
He’s done it before, after all. (He now openly posts as Paul Elam with this account, apparently having forgotten how he was using it before.)
The general consensus on the “unbiased” AVfM forums was that Paul lost the debate.
I don’t know why, but I have a totally unsubstantiated belief that Woody is Esmay.
If Robenric is Elam wouldn’t it make more sense to try to convince his own followers that he won the debate? Because so far they don’t seem to be buying it.
This would explain so much.
RE: cassandrakitty
how many of you do go for the fitness magazine cover model look?
I was always under the distinct impression that the uber-buff thing was a fantasy FOR MEN, not for women. It’s all about the power and the muscle and the HURRRR. Otherwise, wouldn’t body-building contests be utterly crammed with screaming women hurling their panties at contestants?
I didn’t go to a US high school – is that really how things are when you’re stuck in one, or is that also just a movie trope?
It’s one of those things that I think people MAKE real in their heads. Sure, there are group barriers, but in my school at least, there was some overlap and it wasn’t like if you were a geek you could NEVER talk to a jock or anything. Some geeks in particular, though, seem to cling to this romantic idea of them being the oppressed minority and NEVER. LET IT. GO.
RE: pallygirl
Aren’t the models on those fitness magazines doing stuff like withholding liquid for 24 hours ahead of the photo shoots?
Yeah. Body-building requires pretty stringent dietary means and dehydration to achieve that look. (Not to mention all the shaving and oiling.) It’s really intense! And there’s on-season and off-season training, so yeah, body-builders don’t look like that all the time. Hubby’s best friend, back in the day, was into that stuff, and from what I understand, dude did it for HIMSELF, not for other people’s attention. It made him happy.
RE: WWTH
Skinny arms + huge boobs is a dead giveaway.
Uh, I had a skinny vessel with D-cup tits till I hacked them off. It is possible, you know.
It’s like the obsession with enormous penises, isn’t it? Actually more of a man thing than a woman thing. Anecdotal I know, but all the size queens I know are gay men.
Whereas in my experience women are more likely to be found hurling their panties at skinny alterna boys with long hair, or boy bands.
(Granted that Marky Mark was pretty damn buff, but he’s the exception to the rule.)
I think we may all be working with varying definitions of “huge” here. To me that would mean at least a G cup, which actually is rather uncommon on a super skinny frame.
See, this is exactly what I was complaining about re debates. There is nothing stopping some joker like this from showing up and insisting that, in the face of all evidence, Paul actually won and if we were less biased we would know it.
@katz:
I dunno, I think both David’s OP and funkykingston both gave pretty good justifications for their conclusions about the debate. Robinric gave no justification. That’s enough in my mind to just dismiss him. We won’t convince him that he’s wrong that way, but he didn’t bother to trying to convince us.
Maybe we are biased and not seeing some brilliant insight that Elam had (that even he and his own rabid followers missed), but if that’s true we won’t learn about it from Robinric unless he comes back to explain himself.
I knew a woman who found the appearance of large penises aesthetically pleasing, but didn’t actually enjoy having them in her because of her vagina’s size.
Of course he’s not going to convince us, but the point is just that everyone who watches the debate is likely to come away thinking that their side won, even if by every possible metric it was a trouncing (as opposed to, say, a sporting event, where no matter how much you wanted your team to win, you are forced to acknowledge that they lost).
What Cassandra said. I don’t think of d cup as huge. That’s actually the average in the US. I was thinking more along the lines of my size which is g.
I would not be surprised if Elam was Woody or Rickroll or whatever that troll was called.
To think, we have been speaking with one of the greatest human rights activists of our time!!!!!!!!!
Massive /s
I’ve seen people try to claim that their team didn’t really lose, it’s just that the ref cheated, actually. They got pretty much the same response Woody tends to get here.
@Harlan. No problem. There are a few immediate indicators of friendship for me. Somebody digs Toots & the Maytals? Well then yeah, we can hang out. 😉
@ Leum
I once dated a guy with a penis of John Holmes proportions and, um, let’s just say I have no desire to repeat the experience. Aesthetically pleasing maybe if you like that kind of thing, but practical not so much.
@ cassandrakitty
As far as high school goes,in my case it was more that people had interests overlapping. So people who where just into geek stuff or jock stuff where in their own groups. The biggest division was have and have nots. Clarence is about 20 mins. outside of Buffalo is an older farm community. My family were farmers, not commercial one either. People started to move out here when they became richer with white collar jobs.My family is just probably what you would call lower middle class, I had friends who were very poor at times, but my best friends dad owned a medium sized business. I had friends about end. I was an exception to the rule, and was not friends with kids who lived in Spaulding Lake. This was the multi-million dollar subdivision in town. So money was the big divider.
Damn. My A cups have never felt so small. 😀
Class as a dividing line makes a lot more sense to me than jocks versus geeks, and unlike jocks versus geeks that problem doesn’t go away as soon as you graduate.
BTW thanks everyone who’s chiming in, I feel like I shouldn’t jump immediately to the assumption that people are full of crap about the high school thing since my school was so different, so it’s good to know that people who actually went to those kinds of schools don’t entirely agree either.
RE: cassandrakitty
It’s like the obsession with enormous penises, isn’t it? Actually more of a man thing than a woman thing.
You know, I feel like there’s some academic essay in this weird thing guys have where they mistake their power fantasy for a woman’s sexual fantasy.
RE: WWTH
I don’t think of d cup as huge. That’s actually the average in the US.
Uh, I thought that was a B, until recently, where it got upped to C, and that’s over ALL body types in the US. Because I am pretty damn fucking sure that our boobs were considered unusually large for our frame. (I have the kinda gory post-op photos as well, just because I think it more clearly shows how visible our ribs were; this was when the ED was still in my life.) Getting a 28D bra was fucking impossible.
@ LBT
The best part is when women respond by saying “No, that is not my fantasy – here’s what I actually care about” and they respond to that with “No you don’t! Lies! Let me tell you again what you really want.”
Average bra size – I’m not sure of the reliability of the data (one lingerie company surveyed 60,000 customers), but everything I googled said the average cup size in 2013 was 34DD, but in 2012 it was 34C. Apparently the biggest cause for change was more people getting properly fitted bras.
And now I should get back to work…
Indeed. What you want.
What you really, really want.
Because if you want to be this trolls lover, you have got to
get with his fantasy (all the imaginary places to be)
The distortion lasts forever! My god it never ends
I guess thinking isn’t easy.
But that’s the way it is
hrurugh.
What just happened? Just flashed back to the ninities there for a second. Radical. I mean… uergh.
Re: Highschool – Never got the clique ideas of high school that much. In both places I went to, it was way more based on your general line of studies, and then people from one line did their best to sort of joke at the expensive of other lines.
Mind you, I don’t know what a high school actually is. I have never been able to find a completely satisfactory explanation for how my schooling compares to the the US ideal of high school, so whatever, I’ll barge on ahead nonetheless. I think maybe I’ve complete high school? Or I’ve done what amounts to high school + first year of college? Or something?
General line of studies – any pre-university education over here is split with your generalized focus, be it business (htx) academic subjects (stx) or sort of a preparatory thing for what I assume is further specialization in a trade (hf)
And then everyone laughs and says HF students can’t do math. In the mean time, I’m taking the IB, so all the STX students laugh at me and say I’m a geek who never has time to party because I’m studying 42 hours a week for a useless diploma that’ll never get me anywhere
Everyone hangs out with everyone, and has friend across the various grades. I’ve never met a jock and I’ve never met a geek, either, if we go by the typical american stereotypes that all these MRA types decry all the world is.What I did notice – very severely – tended to mark people out and form them into groups were general income level of their parents + their ability to either work for themselves or not. Those with a high disposable income tended towards hanging out with like-wise. Nationality played a little part in it, but not much. Interests did some, but in that specific way where it’s more personalities than actual interests. So a bunch of guys get into a large group and talk about football, only it’s not so much the football as it is the fact they all love the danish triumvirate of getting drunk, dissing girls and talking about football.
Honestly, ever since the television channels over here started broadcasting more high school drama type movies I’ve sort of been perpetually confused.
I think the most popular guy at my school at the time was a guitar / musician / poet fellow who wrote stories and spent a lot of time asking people questions like “So do you really really believe…”. Another was the highly active political person who was also the student councilor and the guy in charge of every single volunteer thing ever. Giant nerd that, joins my D&D campaigns. We room-mated for a year-ish. Pretty popular with the ladies (And the lads and the moms and the dads and everyone), despite being chubby and arrogant and fond of wine.
It’s almost like hollywood high school isn’t a good explanation of social dynamics.
I may have said this last time we talked about this topic, but the most popular kid at my high school was the one who could play Black Sabbath’s “Iron Man” on the recorder.
Katz, please, please, please say someone recorded that! Recorder Black Sabbath sounds like it should be both ridiculous and amazing.
Alas, while I have his garage-band (well, garage-solo-act) demo CD, Black Sabbath on the recorder is not among it. Would Flutacris* be an acceptable substitute?
*not performed by my high school friend, in case anyone asks