So, that happened.
The debate between Matt Binder (from the Majority Report) and Paul Elam (from A Pile of Money for Paul Elam) went off yesterday. I can’t say it went off without a hitch, because it was actually quite hitch-full. Indeed, it was kind of a disaster — at least for one Paul Elam.
Paul’s the one who wanted the debate. He chose the topic, he chose the format, he controlled the venue. And he lost the debate rather spectacularly, grimly reading a succession of prepared statements while Binder shot down his arguments with common-sensical one-lines and raised issues that Elam didn’t or couldn’t address.
Binder rattled Elam early by presenting him with an unattributed quote that sounded virtually identical to Elliot Rodger’s misogynistic rants and which Elam dismissed as something that no MRA would ever say; Binder then revealed that it was a quote from Stefan Molyneux, the MRA “philosopher” who was one of the featured speakers at AVFM’s recent conference. (Indeed, it was a quote that I highlighted in my first Misogyny Theater videos on Mr. M.)
Then, after Elam read off a list of all the various women who have associated themselves in some way with AVFM, Binder knocked the wind out of him by asking, quite simply, so what?
The most surreal moment, in a debate full of surreal moments, came 39 minutes into the debate. Binder had spent much of his previous two segments discussing an assortment of issues that the Men’s Rights movement largely ignores, even though they primarily affect men, and men of color in particular — from stop and frisk policies in major cities to the deaths of American soldiers in wars overseas.
But instead of answering Binder’s question –why hasn’t the Men’s Rights movement actually tried to do something about these problems? — Elam instead read his prepared “closing statement,” responding not to anything Binder had argued but to the arguments Elam, writing the statement before the debate, had assumed he would make.
And so, after hearing Binder passionately argue that the MRM needs to fight for the rights of men in prison and for the lives of men sent to fight and possibly die in wars, we heard Elam beating away on a straw man, declaring — after calling him a bigot — that Binder
has been led to believe, quite falsely, that gender justice mandates the summary rejection of all men’s problems in favor of a view that can only see men as the problem.
The debate, such as it was, lurched to its conclusion in an assortment of miscues and technical glitches a few minutes later. Dean Esmay, the incompetent and often ineffectual “moderator” of the debate, rocking back and forth on his chair in a darkened room, eyes mostly closed, plaintively asked Binder to send him “that particular story” on stop and frisk in New York city that Binder had referred to earlier in the debate. Esmay, defensive and exasperated, explained that
we are an all-volunteer organization and we don’t see every story. I’d like to see that story from Matt, please do send it to me.
Binder, incredulous, pointed out that stop and frisk has been in the headlines for years, as Esmay, visible in a small box at the bottom of the screen, rubbed his head as though he were developing a migraine. Esmay repeated his request, saying that
we cover a lot of stories; I’m just asking for you to send me that.
There were then a few uncomfortable moments as Esmay and Elam tried to figure out how to close down the Google Hangout that was hosting the debate.
Esmay: “Are we off?”
Binder: “Still says ‘live’ for me.”
Esmay: “Paul?”
Elam: “Yeah, I’m still having problem with the button.”
Esmay laughs.
Elam: “Isn’t that wonderful?”
Long silence. Esmay rocks back and forth on his chair.
Esmay: “Just close the window.”
A few moments later, he did.
I think we may need to have another AVFM graphics contest, incorporating what I think should be AVFM’s new slogans:
“I’m still having problem with the button.”
“We are an all-volunteer organization and we don’t see every story.”
A Voice for Men is clearly not ready for its closeup.
Hey, guys! Preforming a random delurk to leave this here.
http://aplus.com/a/the-highest-paid-1950-pinup-girl-and-her-impossible-18-inch-waist
But women don’t have impossible to meet beauty standards. Men totally have to rearange thei internal organs to be attractive.
Back to lurking…
That’s me and beards. My dad had one for most of his early childhood, and my brother grew his out as soon as he got a job that would allowed one. I’m glad I’m not ten years younger and single, since so many twenty-something guys have facial hair now. My knee-jerk “not for me!” response kicks in too hard for that.
cassandra, oh, I didn’t know the moustaches came into that category, too.
I think moustaches are a thing for me partly because there were so many moustached and longish-haired guys to be seen in the late 60s. Thank goodness the parental unit didn’t try a moustache … he looked silly enough doing the Bob Hawke sideburns in the 70s.
My dad had one for most of *my* early childhood.
If he’d had one for most of *his* early childhood, that would have been astonishing. And burdensome for a little kid in the forties and fifties.
As usual, someone else puts it better. 🙂
My thing with the really buff look is that it just seems so artificial looking, like the guy had his muscles inflated or something. Overall, kind of ugh as an instinctive reaction.
Hi, Supernova!
Those photos … that tiny waist just looks grotesque, to me. Such an abrupt transition from ribs to waist to hips.
Christian Dior was apparently dead set on his models having tiny waists when he was doing New Look dresses. If they starved themselves and were so tight-corseted they fainted, well, so what?
Flying Mouse – LOL I missed that typo.
I guess your dad could have got away with a childhood beard if his name was Bjorn Hammerhock or something like that.
To expand on Supernova, here’s a picture of a foot that’s been through binding. It’s pretty gruesome just to warn you all!
http://www.cvltnation.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/1662903087_1389791545.jpg
Can anyone imagine men ever having that done?
I’m not a fan of the tightlaced look either. In a corset it’s fine because you know the corset is what’s doing it, and assume the person will be taking it off later (most people I know who wear corsets do so in a very costumey way), but to have it be permanent freaks me out a bit. Then again I have an exceptionally strong uncanny valley response, so things that are really obviously artificial tend to freak me out (other than hair colors not found in nature, which I love). Also it upsets me to see people who’re obviously fighting their natural build – too much empathy kicking in, too much of a tendency to worry about them. The dude who I was watching videos of last night when the troll decided to poop in the thread lost a ton of weight at one point, and normally I would really like the resulting build (very tall and very thin), but on him it just freaked me out because it was so obviously not his natural build and the result of extreme dieting. So instead of thinking “hey baby” it was more like “eek, is he OK?”
I am a het-lady and while I enjoy a well muscled male body, I don’t like the super-buff, body builder or even gym rat type. Hard arms and a broad chest/shoulders do make me swoon a bit.
However, the last several people I have dated have had wildly divergent body shapes and sizes. It is almost like there is more to attraction than appearance. Imagine that!
I seem to be fairly indiscriminate when it comes to aesthetic appreciation of men. (Sexual is a whole different matter, I’m mostly ace.)
I like some muscle definition, and long waists. Short-waisted men look odd, as if the top and bottom of different dolls, sorry: action figures, got stuck together.
Also, men have to be taller than me. If I can look down on a man standing next to me, it seems unnatural. This one is probably family-sourced, because all my adult male relatives are 5’10” or taller. Actually, so are all my adult female relatives. How did I get stuck at 5’6″?
@ Unimaginative
Did you hit puberty early? I’m shorter than both of my parents and all but one of my grandparents (both of my granddads were tall actually), and I’ve always suspected that it’s because I hit puberty so early and when that happens girls tend to stop growing.
Huh. I grew boobs pretty early (11), but didn’t get my first period until I was 13. I got my second period when I was 15. I doubt that’s it, but maybe.
I think cassandrakitty has touched on my problem with unrealistic beauty ideals – there are people who can rock curvy, or skinny, or buff, or voluptuous, or lean, etc etc. and look teh secks, and it often seems to go hand in hand with being confident in their skin. What skeeves me out is when people are fighting genetics to a point that they seem to hate their body – for all the dudebros who seem to think that stick-thin is the ideal state for a woman, my first reaction to that look when it’s obviously not genetically favoured is to worry about malnutrition. Can’t turn off my health care worker brain. 😛
I don’t know why I ended up the short one in my family. I’m 5’5 and I was a late bloomer. I didn’t even get my period until 14 and a half. My mom, until she started shrinking recently was about 5’7 and so were both my grandmothers. My dad and brother are both close to but not quite 6 feet tall. My paternal grandfather was short. I guess that’s where I get it. I’m surprised I even made it to 5’5 when I was a kid I was always one of the shortest in my class. In my k-8 school I was the third shortest in my grade until one of the short girls moved. Then I was the second shortest. I didn’t make it to 5 feet until I was 12.
I don’t mind short guys. I’ve dated lots of guys who are 5’6 or 5’7. Another way I’m failing as a woman I guess.
On height: Kylie Minogue in an interview, asked what she’s doing next, says she keeps hoping for a growth spurt. 😛
I prefer a man to be only a little taller than me – I don’t like having to look up at someone I’m talking to and I hate being loomed over, intentionally or not. Strangely enough I feel less uncomfortable about men who’re shorter than me than women who are (and given I’m 5’4″, that means they’re quite short). With women, I suddenly feel like I’m the one who’s looming or outsized. Anyone else get that odd notion?
I like a slim or curvy waist on a man, aesthetically, and I don’t like wide shoulders at all, but it doesn’t matter in the end. It’s not like there’s any sexual attraction happening, and if Mr K chose to present as a fat dude I’d find that pretty damned attractive, because he’s attractive, ergo his traits are the pleasing ones. (Well … most of them. If he ever goes clean shaven again or cuts his hair, there will be Words.)
Strivingally,
Agreed. People never look quite right when they fight their natural body shape. Breast implants often look fake and weird even if they’re well done because women with large breasts usually tend to put on weight in the upper body in general and don’t usually have skinny arms. Skinny arms + huge boobs is a dead giveaway.
@ strivingally
Yeah, when it’s obvious that someone is fighting their genetics I just worry for them, even if what they’re aiming for is a build I’d normally like, and worry shuts down the libido pretty effectively, at least in my case. I’d feel extra awful about in any way reinforcing someone’s body hatred by seeming to prefer the not-natural-for-them look, but really most of the time I don’t anyway, because I’m too busy worrying about their health and what’s going on emotionally that’s making them take whatever steps they’re taking to maintain the not-natural build.
Before anyone yells at me, I don’t go poking my nose into other people’s business and asking intrusive questions of people who I don’t know well, and even if I do know them well I’m not going to go charging in all “I am concerned, so you should do what I say!”.
I don’t know why you guys are focusing on musty ole history when 70s American television is where it’s at in terms of uniforms.
http://galleryplus.ebayimg.com/ws/web/140288218686_1_0_1/1000×1000.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-VptSEsRcQXk/ThzZtff5DJI/AAAAAAAAPT4/sqfY0Z0ph60/s1600/MarenJensen_Athena-2_100.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-uXcQzWmywCs/T3STzHCW3DI/AAAAAAAARFI/SHKcACx7W6Q/s1600/LC02c.jpg
Don’t forget the CHiPs chaps!
Not particularly relevant, but cute pic of Dustin Hoffman and Peter O’Toole.
http://www.thisisnotporn.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Dustin-Hoffman-and-Peter-O%E2%80%99Toole.jpg
I kind of like the corseted look on some women. I have thought about getting a corset made for myself, but they are so expensive, and I’m such a lazy slouch that I doubt I would actually wear it as much.
For men, although I have dated and sexed a variety of types, my favorite body type is slim and soft. And I would prefer them to be approximately my height; I’m not a big fan of looking up at a guy or bending over for one.
But this is, of course, all else being equal, and enjoying being around a guy is much more important to me than contextless aesthetic admiration.
I have read that the big shift in men’s clothing from capes and layers to the ‘suit’ was due to firearms. When every well-born man in Europe went about with a sword, flowing garments were highly recommended. When they were supplanted by handguns, the capes, etc., lost their utility. Compare the Macaronis with Beau Brummel, for example.
Save the queen – great post. Thanks for sharing your experience – and I would agree that it should be required reading for trolls.
I’m sad I missed this conversation.
Anyway here is a Prussian hussar sporting a highly utilitarian two-foot-long horsehair plume.
Man in totally utilitarian clothing with woman in silly flouncy girl-clothes.
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44108000/jpg/_44108985_bolan_hultonarchive416.jpg