Categories
a voice for men misogyny MRA paul elam straw feminists

How to Lose a Debate in 45 Minutes: Paul Elam fumbles his debate with Matt Binder

So, that happened.

The debate between Matt Binder (from the Majority Report) and Paul Elam (from A Pile of Money for Paul Elam) went off yesterday. I can’t say it went off without a hitch, because it was actually quite hitch-full. Indeed, it was kind of a disaster — at least for one Paul Elam.

Paul’s the one who wanted the debate. He chose the topic, he chose the format, he controlled the venue. And he lost the debate rather spectacularly, grimly reading a succession of prepared statements while Binder shot down his arguments with common-sensical one-lines and raised issues that Elam didn’t or couldn’t address.

Binder rattled Elam early by presenting him with an unattributed quote that sounded virtually identical to Elliot Rodger’s misogynistic rants and which Elam dismissed as something that no MRA would ever say; Binder then revealed that it was a quote from Stefan Molyneux, the MRA “philosopher” who was one of the featured speakers at AVFM’s recent conference. (Indeed, it was a quote that I highlighted in my first Misogyny Theater videos on Mr. M.)

Then, after Elam read off a list of all the various women who have associated themselves in some way with AVFM, Binder knocked the wind out of him by asking, quite simply, so what?

The most surreal moment, in a debate full of surreal moments, came 39 minutes into the debate. Binder had spent much of his previous two segments discussing an assortment of issues that the Men’s Rights movement largely ignores, even though they primarily affect men, and men of color in particular — from stop and frisk policies in major cities to the deaths of American soldiers in wars overseas.

But instead of answering Binder’s question –why hasn’t the Men’s Rights movement actually tried to do something about these problems? — Elam instead read his prepared “closing statement,” responding not to anything Binder had argued but to the arguments Elam, writing the statement before the debate, had assumed he would make.

And so, after hearing Binder passionately argue that the MRM needs to fight for the rights of men in prison and for the lives of men sent to fight and possibly die in wars, we heard Elam beating away on a straw man, declaring — after calling him a bigot — that Binder

has been led to believe, quite falsely, that gender justice mandates the summary rejection of all men’s problems in favor of a view that can only see men as the problem.

The debate, such as it was, lurched to its conclusion in an assortment of miscues and technical glitches a few minutes later. Dean Esmay, the incompetent and often ineffectual “moderator” of the debate, rocking back and forth on his chair in a darkened room, eyes mostly closed, plaintively asked Binder to send him “that particular story” on stop and frisk in New York city that Binder had referred to earlier in the debate. Esmay, defensive and exasperated, explained that

we are an all-volunteer organization and we don’t see every story. I’d like to see that story from Matt, please do send it to me.

Binder, incredulous, pointed out that stop and frisk has been in the headlines for years, as Esmay, visible in a small box at the bottom of the screen, rubbed his head as though he were developing a migraine. Esmay repeated his request, saying that

we cover a lot of stories; I’m just asking for you to send me that.

There were then a few uncomfortable moments as Esmay and Elam tried to figure out how to close down the Google Hangout that was hosting the debate.

Esmay: “Are we off?”

Binder: “Still says ‘live’ for me.”

Esmay: “Paul?”

Elam: “Yeah, I’m still having problem with the button.”

Esmay laughs.

Elam: “Isn’t that wonderful?”

Long silence. Esmay rocks back and forth on his chair.

Esmay: “Just close the window.”

A few moments later, he did.

I think we may need to have another AVFM graphics contest, incorporating what I think should be AVFM’s new slogans:

“I’m still having problem with the button.”

“We are an all-volunteer organization and we don’t see every story.”

A Voice for Men is clearly not ready for its closeup.

 

 

Subscribe
Notify of
guest

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.

649 Comments
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

Also I only find him (del Toro) attractive when he’s acting, not so much when he’s just walking around being a regular person.

pallygirl
pallygirl
6 years ago

Argenti: deal! 🙂

katz
6 years ago

At the risk of possibly sounding creepy, Russia seems to produce a higher than average number of men who I find really strikingly attractive, which is odd since it’s also a pretty macho culture.

How do you feel about Russian-Korean rock stars from the 1980s? (Viktor Tsoi)

kittehserf MOD
kittehserf MOD
6 years ago

Seconding how similar yet different it is, cassandra, and it intrigues me, too!

Yes, I’m ten years older than you. I’ve found I’ve got much less interested in guys who’re much younger than me, as I age. It’s not that long since I’d look at guys in their twenties or thirties and think yes, attractive, but now there’s just too much of a gap. I’m thinking forties, fifties, these days. It’s all theoretical of course, because I’m effectively asexual and aromantic when it comes to anyone ‘cept Himself. Or rather, I’m not shopping or even window-shopping these days, because I’ve got what I want. If I notice a bloke these days, it’s likely to be 1) he’s got a really good hairdo, I wish more guys would groom that well; 2) he reminds me of X; 3) look at that knitwear I WANT THAT KNITWEAR.

Which leads to another question, if anyone’s interested in answering: have you found your interest in even looking at other people, let alone anything more, has simply dried up once you’re with the person you love, in a long-term relationship? Because that’s what happened to me and I really don’t think it’s just age and loss of libido or anything like that.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

@ Katz

Good looking but not my type? Mr “I want everyone to want to hug me” who I was talking about above is also Korean, btw.

@ Kittehs

On the looking while in a relationship thing, nope, I still look as much as ever. What has happened is that the percentage of men who I find visually appealing who look somewhat like Mr C has increased, whereas the occasions on which I look at someone very different looking to him and think “oh hey there!” have decreased. I do think there’s a sort of imprinting thing that can happen to people in long term relationships, and it just manifests a bit differently in different people.

Argenti Aertheri
6 years ago

*checks* River Phoenix was 23, which is a bit better I guess, since I’m just shy of 29. And I agree that they just haven’t found anyone who compares — I’ve probably seen it 100 times, but his performance in Stand By Me still gets me every time. (And now I have Lollipop stuck in my head…)

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

Oh man, I still remember going to see Stand By Me in the theater when it came out, and The Mosquito Coast. Actually the other sad thing about Stand By Me is, remember how great Corey Feldman was in that? And then his personal and professional life went to shit, because Hollywood is full of child abusers who feed kids drugs.

kittehserf MOD
kittehserf MOD
6 years ago

cassandra – yes, it’s clear from lots of Mammotheers that looking while in a LTR is very much a thing, lol. That’s what had me wondering if anyone else has had the loss of interest happen. I suspect it’s less common. (From the University of Assfax, Mygutfeeling Dept.)

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

I should get your email address at some point, we can randomly spam each other with pictures of men who we think are pretty and go “this one? y/n?”.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

I think the difference in looking mostly at people who look a bit like partner versus not looking at all may be related to libido in general? I mean, I’ve always been pretty lecherous, if we’re being honest. Also weird/interesting, whatever it is happening there hasn’t had any impact on the women I tend to find attractive at all.

contrapangloss
6 years ago

I’ve heard a lot of people say that Hayden Christensen is pretty or hot, but I really don’t get it.

Christopher Eccleston as the Doctor was pretty adorable, but the feels are definitely more like “Awww, you adorable, tragic, poor wee little lamb!” and less “I’d really like to do that.”

His ridiculously happy “Everybody Lives!!” face was the best.

Still, not pants feels, more “Can I be your new best friend, and can we make this ‘everybody lives’ thing happen more often, because your happy face is happy making? And, TARDIS?” feels.

weirwoodtreehugger
6 years ago

I was about 14 when River Phoenix, Brandon Lee and Kurt Cobain all died in a short time span. That was very rough for a girl that age. Part of me is still not over it. Especially Cobain.

Argenti Aertheri
6 years ago

WWTH — oh gods yes…my mother said they reopened the investigation though, which is a sort of bitter solace?

Cassandra — I know, that and Lost Boys and then wtf people, he was a fine kid, why’d you make him a fucked up adult? Another one for that group — the kid from Home Alone, wtf’s his name?

Cassandra // kitteh — I have both your emails if you want to swap emails.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

@ WWTH

I feel you. I was in high school when Stiv Bators and Johnny Thunders died, and wasn’t over it for a long time.

kittehserf MOD
kittehserf MOD
6 years ago

I like your thinking!

If you want it, it’s frenchqueen13 at gmail, etc.

We really should get a grant for this research. It’s science!

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

Also, about River Phoenix, part of my abiding distrust for LA and for people in the movie scene comes from knowing there were people who vaguely knew him who stood there any watched him dying on the sidewalk and did nothing. Christina Applegate in particular I’ve never been too fond of after that.

kittehserf MOD
kittehserf MOD
6 years ago

::points up::

That comment was for cassandra. Remember to refresh page, remember to refresh page! 😛

kittehserf MOD
kittehserf MOD
6 years ago

Christopher Eccleston as the Doctor was pretty adorable, but the feels are definitely more like “Awww, you adorable, tragic, poor wee little lamb!” and less “I’d really like to do that.”

CE didn’t do anything for me (his hair was way too short, for one thing) but that leather jacket, that’s another story. There’s a great and very useful bit portrait of him wearing it.

Argenti – you mean Macaulay Culkin from Home Alone?

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

Culkin, yep. Really it’s the kids who made it through that system without lasting emotional damage who’re the exception.

katz
6 years ago

Hey, Katz, what’s some interesting russian poetry?

Gorbunov i Gorchakov, Joseph Brodsky’s poetic dialogue between two inmates in a Soviet asylum, based on his own experiences. Hard to find in English but here is Brodsky reciting one of his English-language poems.

Argenti Aertheri
6 years ago

Yep, and yep. But he came out particularly worse the wear.

Cassandra — idk how true it is, but I read recently he said, before he collapsed, that he thought he was OD’ing. So yeah, Depp is about the only one there that night that I can abide, and from everything I’ve read he didn’t know until after River was dead.

Eccleston made me go “I’d really like to do that”…in a very literal sense. That episode is, I think, the only New Who where “everybody lives”. Hm, the Christmas special with the awesome mansion and WWII? Does everyone survive that episode? I think that one may actually end up with extra people living, cuz Timey Whimey…

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

Wait, why has nobody mentioned my countryman so far in this conversation? Terrible oversight. Anyway, Ewan McGregor, gorgeous man, especially with long hair like he had in Shallow Grave.

kittehserf MOD
kittehserf MOD
6 years ago

Not my type, but he rocks a kilt.

::ducks::

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

Also has anyone mentioned Vincent Perez? Or Stuart Townsend?

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

Or, for the 20-something Mammotheers, Akanishi Jin? If for whatever reason you want lots and lots of photos of a very pretty man’s ass, he’s your guy.

weirwoodtreehugger
6 years ago

Richard Madden always tops my hot Scot list
http://cdn.hitfix.com/photos/4891109/Richard-Madden.jpg

wewereemergencies
wewereemergencies
6 years ago

Don’t have much to contribute to this conversation. My taste in men tends to run dark-haired, scruffy and Irish. My taste in women tends to run extremely badass and vaguely morally ambiguous. Did I mention I’m not much for sexual attraction? I think I can count the number of people I’ve been actually attracted to (as opposed to “oh you’re pretty”) on my fingers.

kittehserf MOD
kittehserf MOD
6 years ago
kittehserf MOD
kittehserf MOD
6 years ago

I think I can count the number of people I’ve been actually attracted to (as opposed to “oh you’re pretty”) on my fingers.

Ditto!

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

What’s funny about that portrait is that you could bring that man forward in a time machine and drop him in any Scottish town now and he’d blend right in.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

Even the facial expression says “not that I’m going to say anything, yet, but I have my eye on you”.

kittehserf MOD
kittehserf MOD
6 years ago

That reminds me in reverse of a young guy I saw years ago – not-quite-shoulder-length hair, clean shaven, softish features. He’d have fit perfectly into the Wars of the Roses period.

Did you ever go into St Giles High Kirk, cassandra? Montrose’s tomb is there. People still put flowers on it.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

Nope, my parents already knew better than to take me into churches even when I was just a wee one.

mildlymagnificent
6 years ago

Richard Madden does less than nothing for me. That may be an age / era thing. Can’t be because he’s a bit self-consciously smouldery and sulky – ‘cos I still like the looks of James Dean and others of that ilk from decades ago.

As for the LTR thing. I don’t get it. It’s mrmagnificent who’s attractive to me – not his looks, not his laugh, not his conversation, not his body shape, it’s the whole package. I don’t find other men attractive on the basis of whether they do or don’t look/ sound/ behave like him. Most men are clean shaven after all – and some of them who occasionally grow a beard look to me less attractive rather than more – and mr has always, always had a beard. Wildly luxuriant back in the wild-haired 60s street march days, neatly trimmed and controlled since he became a responsible civil servant father of growing children 20 years later. And I don’t recall ever once thinking that some man or other would be more attractive if he had a beard.

kittehserf MOD
kittehserf MOD
6 years ago

Nope, my parents already knew better than to take me into churches even when I was just a wee one.

Colour me surprised! 😀

I’ve been in there ::counts:: four, five times, probably, in three trips to Scotland. Montrose was Mum’s huge hero for years and the main reason we went to Scotland.

I’ll say this for the High Kirk, their coffee shop wasn’t bad and I bought the cutest. kitty. card. ever from their gift shop.

mildlymagnificent – yes, the whole package!

I think for me, it’s eye-catching to see a man in earth-flesh who has some resemblance to Mr K, because I can only see him in my mind’s eye, or in pictures. But it’s as disconcerting as it’s attractive, and there’s a slight, very slight squick to it, because they aren’t him. I chanced to sit on the train next to a young guy with very Mr K hair a while back, and it was more weird than enjoyable.

On the “he’d look good if” thing, I default to “I’d like to see X with long curls/small moustache/very small beard optional extra” because that’s always been the default of male beauty for me.

kittehserf MOD
kittehserf MOD
6 years ago

I’ve just seen pics of Alan Rickman as the Sheriff of Nottingham for the first time.

I

had

no

idea

::faints::

daintydougal
daintydougal
6 years ago

I mentioned to my bf how I liked Andy from Parks and Recreation (but not now he’s got all buff and hollywood) and the bf said, ‘I thought you would’ and I asked how he knew and he said ‘because he’s big and has a nice smile’.

So apparently it doesn’t take much to make me happy!
As everyone is so fascinated (/s) here are some of my crushes over the years:

Handy two4one

More handy two4one</a

Tom sohotIcan’tchooseapic Hardy

Yeah. Though from this demonstration it would appear ‘scruffs with beards’ also does it for me. Who knew!

titianblue
titianblue
6 years ago

@kittehserf, when Alan Rickman totally upstaged Kevin Kine in The January Man, I realised his attractive qualities 🙂

daintydougal
daintydougal
6 years ago

All that and only one minor sacrifice to the blockquote mammoth! Colour me shocked!
And kittehserf, are you really saying you’ve never seen that awfulawesome Robin Hood film?! Double shocked! I you like that look michael wincott has it in various films

kittehserf MOD
kittehserf MOD
6 years ago

I think I realised AR was sexy when I saw pics of him in Truly, Madly, Deeply (I never watched the film – the theme was a bit close to the bone, back then).

First thing I saw him in, I think, was The Barchester Chronicles, his breakthrough role. Far from sexy, or likeable, but damn, such fun watching him as the odious Mr Slope.

kittehserf MOD
kittehserf MOD
6 years ago

daintydougal, LOL! The list of films I haven’t seen is realllly long – and that’s just “Hollywood/British/Australian” films. I’m not much of a film watcher, really, and neither Kevin Costner nor the Robin Hood story appealed to me (though I’ll grant Costner looked good during parts of Dances with Wolves).

titianblue
titianblue
6 years ago

We went to see the Robin Hood film after we’d heard that alan Rickman and Geraldine McEwan took the scriptwriter down the pub every night, got him drunk and then persuaded him to make rewrites. Pretty much every damn night. The reason why Kevin Costner spends most of the film looking like he hasn’t got a clue what he’s doing or saying? It’s ‘cos, from day to day, he hasn’t got a clue what he’s going to be doing or saying. I understand all the best lines come from those drunken re-write sessions.

Wanders away muttering “with a spoon”

daintydougal
daintydougal
6 years ago

I see. I used to do nothing but watch films. It’s comforting somehow, like reading a book you love and know. 90’s disaster films are the best. But I suppose if your interests lie before the invention of the camera it doesn’t mean as much!

daintydougal
daintydougal
6 years ago

Annnnnd now I have to watch Robin Hood. THANKS OBAM…TITIANBLUE!

pallygirl
pallygirl
6 years ago

Alan Rickman is really attractive.

And now, in this thread, I present a young Adrian Edmondson: http://37.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m5wszhPFsm1rz3gq7o2_1280.png

kittehserf MOD
kittehserf MOD
6 years ago

OMG I can just imagine Geraldine McEwan and Alan Rickman doing that!

Did you see them together in Barchester, titianblue? The face-offs between Mrs Proudie and Mr Slope are just the best.

daintydougal, I tend to watch lots of English police shows – Lewis, Morse, Dalziel and Pascoe and the like – and watch ’em repeatedly, more so now that 1) Mum can’t remember the episodes and 2) I’m knitting anyway, so I’m listening rather than watching.

Speaking of telly, we should be getting our series 1 ER dvd soon. Incredibly youthful George Clooney and Noah Wyle, yay!

pallygirl and I managed to put a few comments that belonged in this thread in the other thread, so I’m resposting my most important ones here:

Beautiful Englishman: George Harrison (that hair – SWOON)

His son Dhani‘s not half bad, either.

They’re pretty darn cute together, too.

daintydougal
daintydougal
6 years ago

Hot guy holding baby (human or otherwise) ramps up the hotness volume exponentially. Especially if it’s their own. D’awww

Sam-I-Was?
Sam-I-Was?
6 years ago

I think for me, it’s eye-catching to see a man in earth-flesh who has some resemblance to Mr K

Oh, oh, oh Kitteh I meant to tell you that I recently started working with someone who could very well be an earthside twin to Mr. K. While he wouldn’t normally be my type I sometimes catch myself thinking that damn he’s hot 🙂

kittehserf MOD
kittehserf MOD
6 years ago

Sam-I-Was?, it’s the power of lookin’ like a king at work! 😀