So, that happened.
The debate between Matt Binder (from the Majority Report) and Paul Elam (from A Pile of Money for Paul Elam) went off yesterday. I can’t say it went off without a hitch, because it was actually quite hitch-full. Indeed, it was kind of a disaster — at least for one Paul Elam.
Paul’s the one who wanted the debate. He chose the topic, he chose the format, he controlled the venue. And he lost the debate rather spectacularly, grimly reading a succession of prepared statements while Binder shot down his arguments with common-sensical one-lines and raised issues that Elam didn’t or couldn’t address.
Binder rattled Elam early by presenting him with an unattributed quote that sounded virtually identical to Elliot Rodger’s misogynistic rants and which Elam dismissed as something that no MRA would ever say; Binder then revealed that it was a quote from Stefan Molyneux, the MRA “philosopher” who was one of the featured speakers at AVFM’s recent conference. (Indeed, it was a quote that I highlighted in my first Misogyny Theater videos on Mr. M.)
Then, after Elam read off a list of all the various women who have associated themselves in some way with AVFM, Binder knocked the wind out of him by asking, quite simply, so what?
The most surreal moment, in a debate full of surreal moments, came 39 minutes into the debate. Binder had spent much of his previous two segments discussing an assortment of issues that the Men’s Rights movement largely ignores, even though they primarily affect men, and men of color in particular — from stop and frisk policies in major cities to the deaths of American soldiers in wars overseas.
But instead of answering Binder’s question –why hasn’t the Men’s Rights movement actually tried to do something about these problems? — Elam instead read his prepared “closing statement,” responding not to anything Binder had argued but to the arguments Elam, writing the statement before the debate, had assumed he would make.
And so, after hearing Binder passionately argue that the MRM needs to fight for the rights of men in prison and for the lives of men sent to fight and possibly die in wars, we heard Elam beating away on a straw man, declaring — after calling him a bigot — that Binder
has been led to believe, quite falsely, that gender justice mandates the summary rejection of all men’s problems in favor of a view that can only see men as the problem.
The debate, such as it was, lurched to its conclusion in an assortment of miscues and technical glitches a few minutes later. Dean Esmay, the incompetent and often ineffectual “moderator” of the debate, rocking back and forth on his chair in a darkened room, eyes mostly closed, plaintively asked Binder to send him “that particular story” on stop and frisk in New York city that Binder had referred to earlier in the debate. Esmay, defensive and exasperated, explained that
we are an all-volunteer organization and we don’t see every story. I’d like to see that story from Matt, please do send it to me.
Binder, incredulous, pointed out that stop and frisk has been in the headlines for years, as Esmay, visible in a small box at the bottom of the screen, rubbed his head as though he were developing a migraine. Esmay repeated his request, saying that
we cover a lot of stories; I’m just asking for you to send me that.
There were then a few uncomfortable moments as Esmay and Elam tried to figure out how to close down the Google Hangout that was hosting the debate.
Esmay: “Are we off?”
Binder: “Still says ‘live’ for me.”
Esmay: “Paul?”
Elam: “Yeah, I’m still having problem with the button.”
Esmay laughs.
Elam: “Isn’t that wonderful?”
Long silence. Esmay rocks back and forth on his chair.
Esmay: “Just close the window.”
A few moments later, he did.
I think we may need to have another AVFM graphics contest, incorporating what I think should be AVFM’s new slogans:
“I’m still having problem with the button.”
“We are an all-volunteer organization and we don’t see every story.”
A Voice for Men is clearly not ready for its closeup.
@Toddles Manboob, Esq.–
One, sorry it took me so long to reply here. I got distracted last night by X-Files and this morning my Taco Bell.
Two, really and truly did not mean to come at your own experience with ADD. If I came off that way, I am deeply sorry.
Three, what I was trying to get to, and it took me a long time to get there, is that I find a difference between expressing concern for an individual and linking symptoms to someone like Esmay–to me, it walks a line between insult and illness, and that’s something I try to avoid. Your comment sparked a really great discussion and helped me understand something I was struggling to articulate before, so thank your for that.
Again, I didn’t at all mean it as an insult or beat-down on you or your experience. I appologize profusely for that.
Unrelated but kind of related, our troll pal screen capped CassandraKitty here for her comment during that very discussion, and it has made the rounds on Men’s Rights reddit and even on The Judgiest of Female-Slur’s twitter (amid discussion of how bad single parents are).
@Cassandrakitty–CONGRATS. You are MRA-famous for pointing out the obvious fact that men and women are held to different standards of beauty.
http://m.imgur.com/r/POLITIC/IbVkLTd
If they only knew it was from here. We’d be hearing all the “David is sockpuppets is kitties” crap.
@Apep
Totally not pretentious at all. Also, yay for more implicit cissexism!
Trolls sure do focus on Cassandra a lot.
I guess we can expect an influx of sad boners over here soon 🙁
I really do wish male misogynists could experience a Freaky Friday type body switch with women. They would learn so many life lessons about how women are evaluated on looks so much more than men are.
Or become trans women, who not only face the same policing as cis women, but also face the additional scathing hatred for “deceiving” men.
Why am I suddenly on moderation? o_O
I’ll try again:
@WWTH
Or become trans women, who not only face the same policing as cis women, but also face the additional scathing hatred for “deceiving” men.
At a guess, the language filter. I had a comment get stalled that way too.
RE: Apep
How very inclusive of you guys to imply that being unshaven makes you ugly or dirty.
I’ll take “shit that never happened” for 100, Alex.
I never said that males don’t have any privilege.
You said “the amazing land of male privilege where physical appearance doesn’t matter for men.” Not my fault you communicate badly.
I’m pretty sure that your sisters in arms were the first to attack lower class men for looking like slobs. Why are they getting a pussy pass from you again?
Pussy pass? Really dude? Really? That’s not a thing that exists.
Men have to go on ridiculous diets … and exert incredible efforts to get six-packs and bulging muscles to look hot.
Bwawhaha, yeah, sure, that’s why shounen-ai is such a thing… seriously, dude, the whole ripped look isn’t as popular among straight women as you dipshits think it is. The muscle-lovers I see more are gay men. But sure, you pretend bara is marketed to women…
It’s kind of like how feminists think they can beat, rob, rape, and loot men just because vagina.
Evidence? Evidence? No. It’s a good thing the god you named yourself after is already dead, because otherwise I’m sure it’d die of shame.
Where’s the word oppression in cassandras post? She said raging misogynists have entitlement issues. Which is a demonstrable fact. Will they all be boohooing over our lack of respect for their bizarre leaders now. SOMEONE FIND ME A TINY VIOLIN STAT!
Also someone pointing out an absurdly long tie or dirty t-shirt isn’t the same as the kind of harassment women face purely for being women, so just don’t.
That’s what came to my mind first, too. Hell, I think cis individuals in general–myself included–would learn from that experience.
I think sadly, that’s a whole layer of privilege that types like Trolly will never understand.
But…but…pussy pass…vagina…
…some women not having that genitalia means none of our clever sayings work…*head kasplodes*
Here is the reddit link, if you feel brave. It’s my first time trying DoNotLink so hopefully it works…fingers crossed!
According to feminists, if a man doesn’t dress nicely, he’s oppressing women
Anything any feminist says, anywhere, is proof that all feminists and feminism itself are ridiculous. OTOH, any thing said by any MRA, ever, is just one man who’s probably not a real MRA anyway.
What a bunch of babies.
I hired a pregnant woman once. I didn’t know she was pregnant until she mentioned it to me while I was offering her the job, however:
– discrimination on the basis of gender (including pregnancy) is illegal in New Zealand
– she was the best candidate for the job, so I would have been stupid to not hire her. She was an awesome employee and was a credit to the organisation, just like I knew she would.
But clearly I gave her an “employed uterus” pass.
The way they go on and on about the problems inherent with strict gender rules, as if its feminists insisting men should be hardcore violence monsters. Amazing.
No wonder they need to make up new words to explain men getting screwed by the patriarchy.
My husband once ran a shady daycare. (He didn’t make it shady. He tried desperately to improve the conditions there. He ended up shafted by the owner too.) When one of his employees got pregnant, the owner told him to fire her right away, which is legal. Having a pregnant woman around all those kids meant that the owner, a mother herself and an all around scumbag, had to pay more for insurance. He apologized to the employee profusely, but he did it. It was that or be fired.
How is that getting a “pass”?
From that thread: This is because men are looked at for their utility before anything else. We always have been. It’s why all of our clothes look the same, more or less. It’s why a ‘man in uniform’ is stereotypically attractive, as it’s the purest form of utilitarian.
And… no. The uniforms people go swoon for tend to not be utilities and fatigues, but dress uniforms, which are about as far as one can get from utilitarian.
@Apep
“Also, if you think women have it harder than men in terms of attracting someone, consider this woman, who had two disabilities and is overweight and is older, but still managed to get married. If she had been a man, forget about it. Nobody would have even looked at him once: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rb6PO_zBIGk
So to recap, what does a woman have to do to attract someone? Have a vagina. What does a man have to do? Look like Ryan Gosling or have George Clooney’s charisma or have lots of money.”
I’m very late to the party but i feel I have to say this, all of it. This whole way of thinking is just bullshit. You’re young and don’t know any better. Your problem seems to be that you’ve surrounded yourself with very toxic people and internalized the standards of mainstream media. Worse, you’ve taken the advice of backwards-thinking men on how to get women. Women are people and not sex-dispensing machines.
I could charitably be described as “cute in an ugly sort of way”…from a distance. I jokingly describe myself as a troll but it is honestly not far off. I am a man. I am five foot, four inches…and a half. I have a lazy eye that slowly swims about my eye socket on its own accord. It disconcerts people so I avoid directly looking people in the eye for too long. I have alopecia. When I was younger, my hair would fall out at random intervals, grow back, and do it all over again. If all my hair would have fallen out uniformly, I would have looked silly but at least kind of normal. Instead, It was scraggly and patchy and I looked like a monster. Some of my teachers were nice enough to let me wear a hat in class in junior high and high school. When I was twenty-three, almost all the hair on both sides of head fell out. I was thrilled that it wasn’t patchy but it never grew back like it did in the past. I sculpt what I have left to make it look like I full head of hair. it kinda looks ridiculous. My facial hair also falls out in clumps so If I do not stay clean shaven I look terrible. I have bad teeth because my parents did not have enough money to get me braces. I have a long, white scar that runs in an arc from lower lip to the left side of chin from taking a bottle to the face when I tried to stop a fight in a bar. My one redeeming feature is that I have nice ass. I have actually been told by people I look better walking away like it’s a compliment.
I do not have a lot of money. I have never owned a car. Hell, I have never even had a real driver’s license because I seriously do not have the coordination to pass the road test. I have a university education but only because I ended up with a full scholarship throughout my undergrad and master’s degree.I earned spending money by working in the same fast-food job for 11 years (getting my degrees was a long, drawn out affair). My chosen degree allows me to subside in a kind of genteel poverty. I eat and have a warm home but it’s a pretty low frills lifestyle. It honestly suits me as I was poor when I was kid and all I really did was read books anyway. Nowadays, I read books and play on the computer as my main modes of entertainment.
According to you, I’m probably one the of the biggest, ugliest, losers on the planet. In your mind, I’ve probably never had a date or lost my virginity. You would be quite wrong. I’m pretty average when compared to others in that regard (“lost” it at 18). I’ve dated blonde girls brunettes, red-heads, short-haired girls, girls with long hair, petite girls, tall girls, fat girls , plain jane girls, sorority girls, girls who like burlesque, nerdy girls, religious girls, not-so-religious girls, fuck, all kinds of girls. What they all had in common is that they were all interesting girls. I had two children with one of them and was engaged to her for a time. We’re still friends, just like I’m friends with most of my ex-girlfriends. I still date occasionally but not as much as I used to. I’m busy with other things like getting my PhD and spending time with my children. Most of all, I’ve discarded the mindset that I must have a girlfriend to be happy. I’m a happy, silly person who likes to laugh.
I’ve never “chatted a girl up” on the fly or tried to pick up a chick at a bar. All of my girlfriends originated in friendships, because I’ve always had a lot of girls who are friends. This is mostly because aside from a couple of close friends that I’ve known since I was a kid, guys wouldn’t give me the time of day. I know high school all too well. No guy, popular or not, wanted to be friends with the short, weird, poor, nerd kid, it marked you with the curse of loserdom. However, girls and women have always showed me a lot of compassion and respect, simply because I’m a human being, even in high school. I developed a lot of friendships with them. I’m not talking about friendships where I pretended to be a friend just to get into her pants. That thought never even crossed my mind because I was utterly convinced that no girl would ever like me in that way. I was just happy to have people to talk to. I chalk up my many friendships I had with women by me just being plum interesting. I can talk about pretty damn near anything, except television because I just didn’t/don’t watch it. I would describe most of my romantic relationships as “just happening,” where I would stammer something about wanting a different kind of relationship and her rolling her eyes saying, “You’ve waited too long, shut up and just kiss me.”
I can sympathize with you because when I spent my first two years of college trying to get ripped, because the male friends I did have kept telling me that if I did, chicks would swoon and wax my jimmy 24/7. I heard the same type of rhetoric when I started going regularly to the gym. I was dumb in that I was taking relationship advice from dudes who had the same amount of romantic success with women that I did ( I found out years later that I was actually more successful in that regard just by me being my clueless self). I ate 5,000 calories a day (which honestly isn’t onerous if you aren’t trying to stuff your face with three meals a day) and worked out six days a week. Yah, I gained muscle mass but I was putting so much effort into working out and eating that I missed out on other things that were going on around me. I went from a weight of 115 lbs in high school to being 170 lb, which is very noticeable on my small frame. It was fun to see a different physical version of me in the mirror. However, friends started telling me that they didn’t see me anymore and that they missed me. There wasn’t women swooning at my feet for just having muscles and if there were I wouldn’t have noticed anyway. I wasn’t making new friends…I HAD NO TIME TO MAKE FRIENDS. I was too busy for friends or a girlfriend. I finally decided I was being stupid and I told the people who were giving me bad advice to get bent. Thereafter I had a string of relationships with women. Today I like working out but it is nothing like the marathon sessions that I subjected myself to before. It’s actually fun now.
This belief that you have where only rich, famous, well-dressed super-hunks get women is plain wrong. My story is anecdotal but there’s billions of people who aren’t rich (because the vast, vast, VAST, majority of people aren’t rich) or even well off. Billions of poor and ugly (by your standards) men and women find and maintain meaningful relationships every day. You need to dump whatever friends that are telling you the toxic bullshit you claim you’re being told and the echo chambers on the internet that you’re frequenting. I don’t know a lot about women, but I do know they don’t like angry men. Stop going to bodybuilding forums and reading fitness magazines. Start telling people who tell you what you should be like to fuck off.
Sorry for lengthiness.
@AllyS- THIS. I have been told I was too big, and I have also been told I was WAYYYYY too skinny, accused of anorexia, and asked “do you run?” and when I answered yes, told in a disgusted voice, “I can tell.” I think that was when i realized that no matter what you do, how much you work on your body and how much you think it conforms to the societal norm, different people have different tastes so you might as well eat for yourself, be healthy, and accept your body, because there is no “guaranteed” figure where everyone will love your body
Maybe if I use smaller words you might get it? When an asshole who hates women, and knows he can get away with being a slob and that women can’t, decides to look like a slob, he could well be asserting the manly privilege to look like you give exactly zero fucks.
More precisely, in this case, when an asshole who rants about how women must look decides to look like he can’t find the washing machine and doesn’t care, he’s making use of his male privilege to look however he wants, while judging women for their appearance.
Also, I seriously question your claim that you aren’t dumb.
Apparently troll thinks all men are so desperate for sex that anyone with an approved BMI will do.
Statement assumes facts not in evidence.
Also they may be singing the Spongebob Squarepants theme song.
I’ve always wondered what kind of sadistic bastard designed those white Navy uniforms. I feel confident that the sailors get penalized for stains, marks, and dinginess.
Esmay’s fashion choices are not a big deal in and of themselves, but they are part of two general patterns amongst the avfm leadership, namely unprofessionalism and lack of self awareness. If Esmay’s strange decision not to just wear a clip-on was the only example of this, then yes it would be petty to mention it. But it’s part and parcel with Elam’s debating tactics, JB’s PR strategy and a host of other issues that show show that they just don’t understand-won’t understand – how they look to people outside of their weird little bubble.