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How to Lose a Debate in 45 Minutes: Paul Elam fumbles his debate with Matt Binder

So, that happened.

The debate between Matt Binder (from the Majority Report) and Paul Elam (from A Pile of Money for Paul Elam) went off yesterday. I can’t say it went off without a hitch, because it was actually quite hitch-full. Indeed, it was kind of a disaster — at least for one Paul Elam.

Paul’s the one who wanted the debate. He chose the topic, he chose the format, he controlled the venue. And he lost the debate rather spectacularly, grimly reading a succession of prepared statements while Binder shot down his arguments with common-sensical one-lines and raised issues that Elam didn’t or couldn’t address.

Binder rattled Elam early by presenting him with an unattributed quote that sounded virtually identical to Elliot Rodger’s misogynistic rants and which Elam dismissed as something that no MRA would ever say; Binder then revealed that it was a quote from Stefan Molyneux, the MRA “philosopher” who was one of the featured speakers at AVFM’s recent conference. (Indeed, it was a quote that I highlighted in my first Misogyny Theater videos on Mr. M.)

Then, after Elam read off a list of all the various women who have associated themselves in some way with AVFM, Binder knocked the wind out of him by asking, quite simply, so what?

The most surreal moment, in a debate full of surreal moments, came 39 minutes into the debate. Binder had spent much of his previous two segments discussing an assortment of issues that the Men’s Rights movement largely ignores, even though they primarily affect men, and men of color in particular — from stop and frisk policies in major cities to the deaths of American soldiers in wars overseas.

But instead of answering Binder’s question –why hasn’t the Men’s Rights movement actually tried to do something about these problems? — Elam instead read his prepared “closing statement,” responding not to anything Binder had argued but to the arguments Elam, writing the statement before the debate, had assumed he would make.

And so, after hearing Binder passionately argue that the MRM needs to fight for the rights of men in prison and for the lives of men sent to fight and possibly die in wars, we heard Elam beating away on a straw man, declaring — after calling him a bigot — that Binder

has been led to believe, quite falsely, that gender justice mandates the summary rejection of all men’s problems in favor of a view that can only see men as the problem.

The debate, such as it was, lurched to its conclusion in an assortment of miscues and technical glitches a few minutes later. Dean Esmay, the incompetent and often ineffectual “moderator” of the debate, rocking back and forth on his chair in a darkened room, eyes mostly closed, plaintively asked Binder to send him “that particular story” on stop and frisk in New York city that Binder had referred to earlier in the debate. Esmay, defensive and exasperated, explained that

we are an all-volunteer organization and we don’t see every story. I’d like to see that story from Matt, please do send it to me.

Binder, incredulous, pointed out that stop and frisk has been in the headlines for years, as Esmay, visible in a small box at the bottom of the screen, rubbed his head as though he were developing a migraine. Esmay repeated his request, saying that

we cover a lot of stories; I’m just asking for you to send me that.

There were then a few uncomfortable moments as Esmay and Elam tried to figure out how to close down the Google Hangout that was hosting the debate.

Esmay: “Are we off?”

Binder: “Still says ‘live’ for me.”

Esmay: “Paul?”

Elam: “Yeah, I’m still having problem with the button.”

Esmay laughs.

Elam: “Isn’t that wonderful?”

Long silence. Esmay rocks back and forth on his chair.

Esmay: “Just close the window.”

A few moments later, he did.

I think we may need to have another AVFM graphics contest, incorporating what I think should be AVFM’s new slogans:

“I’m still having problem with the button.”

“We are an all-volunteer organization and we don’t see every story.”

A Voice for Men is clearly not ready for its closeup.

 

 

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daintydougal
daintydougal
6 years ago

If you don’t mind answering Kittehsef, which Louis was/is your mr. K? Whenever I’m reading/watching stuff and one of the long line of Louis’ come up I always think ‘hmm, wonder if thats him’. Which as I’ve barely said two words to you is a bit odd but there it is. Just out of nosiness/curiosity.

Flying Mouse
Flying Mouse
6 years ago

So many lovely men!

@katz – Thank you for introducing me to Mr. Tsoi. I’m not mad at him, not at all.

have you found your interest in even looking at other people, let alone anything more, has simply dried up once you’re with the person you love, in a long-term relationship?

Y’know, now that you mention it kittehserf, I don’t look anywhere near as much as when I was younger/single. Which is funny, because I’m a lot more comfortable with my sexuality now than I was then. Or maybe it’s not funny, since a lot of that comfort probably comes from having a long-term partner who understands me and loves me anyway. When I do notice a handsome fellow now, chances are that the thing I admire in him (“nice cheekbones!” “what a great smile” “mmm, shoulders”) are the same traits Mr. FM already has. Might be that imprinting thing cassandrakitty mentioned.

I’d completely forgotten about Brandon Lee and Benecio del Toro! I’m a terrible traitor to my nineties teenage self, and should go watch “The Crow” and “Snatch” again in penitence.

fauxmy
fauxmy
6 years ago

@kittehserf — i’ll happily join you in the ‘drooling over george harrison’ section. i recently downloaded scorcese’s ‘living in the material world’ and literally cannot get enough.

i will also admit to having dated a monkee in the mid 80s, who at 20 years older than me, several inches shorter and losing his hair, he fit no standard of attractiveness for me. he was, however, a beautiful human being and we’ve kept in touch for 25 years now. (my friends love to tease me about this for some reason.)

Flying Mouse
Flying Mouse
6 years ago

@fauxmy – I had a girl friend in highschool (the 1990’s) who was inexplicably obsessed with The Monkees. You would have been her new goddess.

fauxmy
fauxmy
6 years ago

@flying mouse — well, you can let her know that you know somebody who dated a monkee and lord it over her now, if that’s your kinda thing. i suspect it is not.

just to blow those little MRA heads — at the time i met him through mutual friends, he was broke, losing his hair, trying to hold on to his teeth and i had no idea who he was when he asked me out. i found out over dinner when some dude in a white shirt and black pants approached us and i said i was not ready to order yet. his response was ‘hey, i just wanted (insert monkee name here)’s autograph.

he helped me pick out my first ‘good’ guitar and we played a lot of music together. (he was one of the two who were actual musicians.) beyond that, he was utterly charming, very much an intellectual and very kind to me as i was just leaving a disastrous first marriage.

daintydougal
daintydougal
6 years ago

The misters are going to have to change the definition of ‘alpha’. Or admit that women are individuals with different tastes and desires.

HAHAHHAHAHAHAHA.

Skye
Skye
6 years ago

So many guys. 🙂

On long term relationships, I obviously still notice attractive guys. It’s changed a bit in that it’s more a ‘ooh, cute’ inner swoon and less a ‘wow, I wish I could date him.’ There’s also some sort of sense of feeling with my husband in a ‘kind of like that but more so’ in terms of attractiveness. Not explaining very well, but he’s the most attractive man to me even though he’s not as conventionally attractive as some other guys I think are good looking. I really hope that makes sense.

Flying Mouse
Flying Mouse
6 years ago

I’m now jumping up and down in my seat because I think you know the Monkee I was hoping you knew. Who was coincidentally my old friend’s favorite group member, too. I’ve heard he’s just a lovely man, I’m glad to know that bears out IRL. 🙂

And any MRA would tell you that you obviously did go out with him because he was famous. And rich. Even though he was broke at the time and you didn’t know him from Adam. Because hypergamy.

Skye
Skye
6 years ago

On Alan Rickman, I liked him in Sense & Sensibility as cute/shy-ish.

No idea what my deal is with Tom Hardy. He’s kind of outside my usual too buff cut off, but I still find him really good looking even so. Might be all the pics of him with that huge grin (upper left pic in WWTH’s montage), which just seems so disarming.

Skye
Skye
6 years ago

And any MRA would tell you that you obviously did go out with him because he was famous. And rich. Even though he was broke at the time and you didn’t know him from Adam. Because hypergamy.

No true MRA could let a silly thing like reality intrude on a good theory/excuse to blame women

daintydougal
daintydougal
6 years ago

I don’t like defined muscles and he’s got some truly atrocious tattoos, but Tom Hardy…omg. My mum went to see either inception or tinker tailor and was thinking ‘that bloke looks like daintydougals bf’, just at that moment her partner leaned over and whispered ‘what’s with all these men who have womens’ lips?!’ she tried not to laugh. Big features ftw.

kittehserf MOD
kittehserf MOD
6 years ago

@daintydougal:

If you don’t mind answering Kittehsef, which Louis was/is your mr. K? Whenever I’m reading/watching stuff and one of the long line of Louis’ come up I always think ‘hmm, wonder if thats him’. Which as I’ve barely said two words to you is a bit odd but there it is. Just out of nosiness/curiosity.

I can’t think of a time I’ve minded answering a question about him! 🙂 Well, unless you count the characters who’ve done the whole gooey-eyed “Is that Jesus?” thing when they see his pic. No, folks, JC didn’t have a monopoly on long hair and afik didn’t go in for wearing lace collars or carrying swords, let alone deciding later that knitwear and jeans are the way to go.

(That strange sound was my eyes rolling out of their sockets again.)

Where was I? Oh yes.

He’s Louis XIII, father of the Sun King. He is, unfortunately, the one that was so horribly caricatured in The Three Musketeers, so you’ll see why I do NOT watch any films of that book.

@Flying Mouse:

Y’know, now that you mention it kittehserf, I don’t look anywhere near as much as when I was younger/single. Which is funny, because I’m a lot more comfortable with my sexuality now than I was then. Or maybe it’s not funny, since a lot of that comfort probably comes from having a long-term partner who understands me and loves me anyway. When I do notice a handsome fellow now, chances are that the thing I admire in him (“nice cheekbones!” “what a great smile” “mmm, shoulders”) are the same traits Mr. FM already has. Might be that imprinting thing cassandrakitty mentioned.

Oh good, it’s not just me!

That’s relevant about being comfortable with one’s sexuality, too – if only having a better notion that it isn’t a case of straight/lesbian/bi and there are no other choices.

I know I’m a lot happier where I am now, seven years on from getting together with him.

@fauxmy – YOU DATED ONE OF THE MONKEES?

My sister got in strife for wagging school to see them arrive in Melbourne. Those were the days, Tullamarine Airport hadn’t even been built – they were at Essendon. I liked them too, in my six-year-old fashion. Still think their songs are pretty damn good.

@Skye:

Not explaining very well, but he’s the most attractive man to me even though he’s not as conventionally attractive as some other guys I think are good looking. I really hope that makes sense.

That makes complete sense to me. ::nods vigorously:: I was surprised the first time someone said to me Louis is handsome; I hadn’t thought he’d be seen that way to modern tastes. But nobody else can hold a candle to him (Scented Fucking or otherwise), even the swoonable Mr Harrison.

Yes, Alan Rickman was gorgeous as Colonel Brandon. Especially in the uniform at the end (you know, those totally boring utilitarian bright red braided tight pantaloon uniforms teh menz were stuck with wearing.)

Nice bit of info: Emma Thompson and Greg Wise got together while making that film. They’ve been married since 2003. 🙂

I should really go to bed. It’s nearly 1am and I have plans that involve brushing and combing a certain person’s lovely long hair out in the garden over the other side.

Niters!

kittehserf MOD
kittehserf MOD
6 years ago
Skye
Skye
6 years ago

His character in Inception is fun too; such lovely snark. “You call this losing a tail?” “You must learn to dream a little bigger, darling.”

fauxmy
fauxmy
6 years ago

flying mouse says

I’m now jumping up and down in my seat because I think you know the Monkee I was hoping you knew. Who was coincidentally my old friend’s favorite group member, too. I’ve heard he’s just a lovely man, I’m glad to know that bears out IRL. 🙂

And any MRA would tell you that you obviously did go out with him because he was famous. And rich. Even though he was broke at the time and you didn’t know him from Adam. Because hypergamy.

i suspect you have guessed correctly, but out of courtesy and affection, i will neither confirm nor deny. he was very, very funny and we hit it off well. this was just before all those worldwide reunion tours began and just after his stint as a bike messenger, so he did eventually regain some of his previous status to an extent. damn, i guess i totally blew my chance to trick him into an 18 year commitment that i was no where near ready to accept at 23. i am such a lousy feminist 🙁

fauxmy
fauxmy
6 years ago

my html skills have failed me as well apparently.

random question — i am not one to use the shift key. it comes from a style preference (e.e. cummings was an inspiration to me) as well as too many years spent as a word processor with some lech leering over my shoulder, trying to look down my blouse, and thinking it might improve my 120 wpm typing speed somehow. yes, i hold a grudge. if this is a problem for folks, i will work diligently to change my ways.

Flying Mouse
Flying Mouse
6 years ago

I wouldn’t expect you to confirm or deny, fauxmy – your and his privacy are important. That’s part of the reason why I didn’t capslockshout “OMG HE’S *NAME HERE,* ISN’T HE?”

And yes, you did fall down there in the quest for ultimate male oppression. But I’m sure that the Feminist High Council has had words with you already.

The all-lowercase style doesn’t bother me personally. Of course, it helps that it was inspired by poetry and misandry.

weirwoodtreehugger
6 years ago

Dainty Dougal,
It’s actually pretty easy to find the best photos of Tom Hardy. Just add a puppy! He’s not my usual type but he seems like a really cool guy in interviews and this picture is swoonworthy.
http://i.imgur.com/16U5gXS.jpg

fauxmy
fauxmy
6 years ago

@flying mouse

I wouldn’t expect you to confirm or deny, fauxmy – your and his privacy are important. That’s part of the reason why I didn’t capslockshout “OMG HE’S *NAME HERE,* ISN’T HE?”

i know you didn’t 🙂 and appreciate it very much.

fauxmy
fauxmy
6 years ago

for kittehserf — harrison at his finest!

http://youtu.be/iU4Cct2aov8

(the whole interview is fantastic, i do hope you’ve enjoyed it a time or two.)

Falconer
6 years ago

Hm, the Christmas special with the awesome mansion and WWII? Does everyone survive that episode? I think that one may actually end up with extra people living, cuz Timey Whimey…

Yep, Everybody Lives in that one.

EL in the Christmas special before that one, too.

These last two Christmas specials got darker….

lurkerina
6 years ago

While not feline, here is Tom Hardy paying his respects to his furrinati overlord:

http://www.laineygossip.com/Tom-Hardy-plays-with-Woodstock-on-the-set-of-Legend/30749#.U8VpTVJJgDw.twitter

weirwoodtreehugger
6 years ago

It looks like the gynocracy has spread to one of the bastions of manly man manness. Ha ha ha! http://io9.com/marvels-new-thor-is-a-woman-1605307213

Argenti Aertheri
6 years ago

“EL in the Christmas special before that one, too.”

“Scrooge’s” love? Though it comes so close and isn’t horribly dark (and I LOVE the intro speech about “half way out of the dark”). The other one that almost counts is the library, depending how you define “Everybody Lives”.

But yes, I love the WWII Christmas one, in part because “I know!” — 10 will always be my Doctor, but goofy 11 won big points there!

Skye
Skye
6 years ago

Gah, again with the peep holes in the so-called armor. Seriously?

LBT
LBT
6 years ago

RE: cassandrakitty

remember how great Corey Feldman was in that? And then his personal and professional life went to shit, because Hollywood is full of child abusers who feed kids drugs.

Child stars seem to always have a really rough go of it. It’s always disturbed me. (And then it becomes weirdly generational fuckery, like with the Sheens and Barrymores.)

Really it’s the kids who made it through that system without lasting emotional damage who’re the exception.

The guy who played Sam in Lord of the Rings seems to be okay, at least. And the Harry Potter kids too.

RE: Kittehs

have you found your interest in even looking at other people, let alone anything more, has simply dried up once you’re with the person you love, in a long-term relationship?

Enh, in my case it was the reverse. Before I met Mac, I wasn’t attracted to anyone or anything; the Raping Year basically killed all that, if it ever existed to begin with. (Seriously, just about anything that could even be SLIGHTLY sexual triggered the fuck out of me. So not worth it.) So it’s only now that I’m safe with him and have laid a lot of that shit to rest that I feel even SAFE looking at or finding other people attractive. Hubby finds it endearing; we have fun going, “that person’s pretty,” “not my type, but THAT person over there…”

Phoenician in a time of Romans
Phoenician in a time of Romans
6 years ago

@LBT : Child stars seem to always have a really rough go of it. It’s always disturbed me.

Unimaginative
6 years ago

Are we still doing hot Scottish men? Gerard Butler in Dear Frankie hit me right in the feels.

Also, my newest favourite celebrity Scot:

Apropos of nothing, his teeth are perfect, which is not something I associate with Scotland.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

Rickman is another one who isn’t my type at all but who I find attractive. It’s the personality, which I keep telling angry manosphere dudes when they pop up arguing about this topic, and they never believe me. There are also men who physically seem like they should be 100% my type (we have to have at least one person here who knows who Gackt is, right? perfect example), but then as soon as they open their mouths and start talking I go from “hey baby” to “hell no”.

@ Dainty Dougal, I also like men with fuller lips. Very thin lips like, say, Kenneth Brannaugh has just look totally unkissable to me.

RE Child stars, it’s international too. Look up the various scandals around Johnny’s Entertainment in Japan to see just how bad it can get outside Hollywood too – the guy who runs that company has been taken to court for sexually abusing his company’s trainees*, and yet the company is still going full steam ahead dominating it’s market. It’s not like everyone doesn’t know that the dude is a child molester.

* All of that particular company’s trainees are boys. See, misters, feminists do care about boys too.

kittehserf MOD
kittehserf MOD
6 years ago

Eeeee, my dvd of ER season 1 just arrived! Know what I’ll be watching tonight. 🙂

Argenti Aertheri
6 years ago

“we have to have at least one person here who knows who Gackt is, right?”

Yep, I think when that came up is when you told me to get out of your playlist! And that saddens me, I want my artists like EA, not like assholes (I hear she’s a sweetheart in person)

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

He’s just really sexist about relationships, and prone to being a bit creepy sexually. Which unfortunately is common enough among musicians that if you were to strike everyone like that off your playlist you’d be left with not much to listen to.

Argenti Aertheri
6 years ago

Yeah, I know, but blarg all the same.

Tina S
Tina S
6 years ago

Oh dear. I’m maybe five minutes into this video and already it’s over in my opinion. How many times does it need to be said that Rogers’ target was women and the people he injured and killed were collateral damage to him. And to deny that what he said sounds MRAish …I don’t even have the right words to describe it.

Leslie
6 years ago

Thank you!

ryeash
6 years ago

Well, that was hilarious. I figured since Crazy Eyes there had his whole argument scripted–I’m not surprised that he thinks he can see the future; he even looks like some hack late night tv psychic–he’d have a prepared closing statement, but to actually hear it was comedy freaking gold.

And the time of it their “operations manager” had…well…operating things. I can’t think of a better statement about that entire “movement” whose biggest presence outside of their piss-and-moan forums is on a website dedicated to nutshot videos and children singing Disney song covers. I wonder how many of them cried themselves to sleep after that embarrassment.

I was hoping that Binder guy would roll Elam up and burn him like the ditch weed he is, but Elam did it for him. He failed to address any of Binder’s points with much more than some form of “nuh uh!” before going back to mumbling over his ranting essay. PaTHETic.

Valerie Glass
Valerie Glass
6 years ago

LOL Yes, ELAM FUMBLES – I think rather what you should say is that Binder is full of misrepresentations and lies and can’t even get his facts straight on things that were covered on a voice for men, let alone explain the absolutely SERIOUS feminist article that was the subject of Elam’s satire.

emilygoddess - MOD
emilygoddess - MOD
6 years ago

LOL ok Valerie. What alternate universe are you writing from? Is it the one with no shrimp?

weirwoodtreehugger
6 years ago

Or is it the one with nothing but shrimp?

Flying Mouse
Flying Mouse
6 years ago

If Valerie is a shrimp, how can zie type?

weirwoodtreehugger
6 years ago

Coincidently, one of my cats is loafing on a stuffed shrimp toy right now.

cloudiah
6 years ago

And now I want an order of Yang Chow’s Slippery Shrimp.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

(Sigh) There we were having a perfectly nice conversation about hot actors and Valerie had to come along and ruin it by throwing shrimp at people. Manners, Valerie. Poor etiquette impresses no one.

emilygoddess - MOD
emilygoddess - MOD
6 years ago

Am I dating myself if I say that shrimp thing was a Buffy reference?

kittehserf MOD
kittehserf MOD
6 years ago

Possibly, but at least you’re explaining something of wotthehell it’s about! 😛

pzmyers
pzmyers
6 years ago

Nice to see that Binder referenced Elam’s “satirical, humorous” joy at someday seeing me anally raped, and as expected, Elam just ignored it and let it slide by.

chiiill
chiiill
6 years ago

Yeah… MRA’s don’t advocate to end Stop and Frisk because the overlap between MRA’s (note: #NotAllMRAs) and extreme racists is quite large. Even the ones who are not racist bigots seem to be afraid of alienating their also-racist-as-well-as-misogynist base.

valiakohnahawake
6 years ago

So my only real response to this post (other than, as always, great post, noble work, love the ‘lols’ embedded in the edges of each blogpost), is, as a woman, I actually feel a real acute jealousy that Matt Binder (as a man), could actually get this idiot to enter into debate with him. I love it when men stick up for feminism (and challenge misogyny), but I’m just so jealous! Because if a woman (any woman), tried to do the same thing, MRAs would refuse to discuss anything other than how many dicks she’s sucked, how ugly she is, how money-grabbing she is, etc etc. I just wish it were possible for a woman to engage in debate with MRAs without being slandered/harassed/judged about her sexual history and attractiveness. But I guess that’s what makes them MRAs huh? They literally don’t see women as people. I guess in their eyes it’s worth having a debate with a man because they see men as sentient beings, but to them women are crazy, childlike animals with vaginas and boobs attached. Sigh.

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