Let’s say that you’re the “Managing Editor” of a website known far and wide for calling women “whores,” as well as an assortment of other 4- and 5-letter words generally considered crude sexist slurs. Let’s just say that you had a convention, and that during this convention your official spokeswoman went on a bit of a name calling rampage on Twitter, repeatedly attacking a woman who had tried to report on said convention as an “attention whore,” a “fame whore,” and a “little whore,” and offering similar “whore”-based assessments to other critics of the site.
And let’s just say that despite all this you also had a desire to convince the world that your site was not actually the misogynistic cesspit that it so obviously is. Would you:
1) Apologize for using the words “whore” and “bitch” and “c*nt” and other similar sexist epithets against women.
2) In your capacity as editor, quietly remove the word “whore” (and “bitch” and “c*nt”) from future postings on the site, and tell your PR maven to maybe come up with a less misogynistic insult of choice.
3) Start calling men whores so that no one can accuse you of hating women because, see we use “whore” to refer to men too!
The answer, of course, is 3 — at least if you’re Dean Esmay, “Managing Editor” of A Voice for Men. In a recent comment thread on AVFM, he declared:
![Screen Shot 2014-07-08 at Tue, [Jul 8], 14 5](https://i0.wp.com/www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/screen-shot-2014-07-08-at-tue-jul-8-14-5.png?ssl=1)
CONFIDENTIAL TO D— E—-: No one is buying your bullshit. Also, if you want to try to convince the world that you’re a Friend of Sex Workers, you should probably stop using the word “whore” as an insult for women or men.
You are talking about relationships like only cis straight men and cis straight women exist, you are talking about family like only biological factors matter and adoption is ‘less than’, you equated being a woman to having a vagina, so yeah, it’s not even just the exclusion.
I realize my positions on the paternity fraud issue are a little extreme. What I’m about to say is my opinion only.
Caring about whether or not your children are biological is selfish, authoritarian, and assumes that there is a hierarchy of human value, that your genetic material is somehow more important or more valuable than somebody else’s. If all humans are of equal value then it doesn’t matter who sired the children in your family.
I realize that “libertarianism” is now essentially an endorsement of oligarchy, but from a “traditional” (read: anarchist) libertarian viewpoint what you are advocating makes no sense.
Aww, I know he’s making a mess all over the rug, but this one’s hilarious.
I mean, look:
So, not buying into libertarianism = we are ebil feminists liberal overlords!
He probably would be happier in Galt’s Gulch, though.
Because you said that, you are now required by statute to read this. (Seriously, everyone read this. It’s good.)
…did you just quote The Da Vinci Code?
I’m so confused.
Oooh, let’s come up with 13 questions for Dean Esmay!
In a word, yes.
By adopting a heteronormative and cissexist worldview, you are already discriminating against us. Of course you don’t have the right to talk over us queer and trans folks, but you certainly should be discussing it and be aware of the issues that affect us. It’s good that you don’t want to engage in any appropriation, but speaking as a trans woman and a lesbian herself, feminism is NOT appropriating our struggles. I support feminists precisely because their critique and opposition to patriarchy are essential to countering heterosexism and cissexism. I don’t personally identify as a feminist for various reasons, but that does change the fact that I agree with them on most things. (I identify as a womanist instead.)
My favourite presidential press conferences were the ones where Obama grilled the reporters about their shirt neck size, affinity for baked goods, and whether or not they knew all the words to the Star Spangled Banner.
Wait, his name is bittersteel?
…bitterSteele?
I know, I know, I’m stretching, no MRAL tells at all.
But that name raises ALL my eyebrows.
@ bittersteel
Oh, hey! We had a MRA libertarian comment (actually not a troll, lol) on here recently with a post about guaranteed minimum income. (That wasn’t you, right?)
I seriously, no joke, would like your opinion on minimum wage and guaranteed income to compare to his.
This is such a logic fail, it takes my breath away.
“Well, I personally think that the selfish people in society are conning them into believing that they have an obligation to take care of someone else’s kids (the people angriest about selfishness tend to be the MOST SELF-SERVING in my opinion. Like, I’ve done a lot more favors for a friend who is very adamantly against selfishness as a value than he has for me, and he doesn’t see the irony in that), but I don’t want to get into this too much in case it offends someone.”
Uh no,when my aunt adopted two orphans it’s because she feels sorry for the children not because she gets conned by anyone,no one is conning no one when it comes to adoption,that’s just what you want to believe to support your view.Heck even my country actually had to fight a bunch of christian missionaries who wants to take children to US to be given to adoption for waiting lists of parents who want to adopt,no one is conning anyone…
When you see white couple adopting black children do you think they’re being conned by black people?
And again where are the evidence that feminist force you to stay in a cuckolding relationship?
Oh, noes! He has uncovered the super top-secret Federal Feminist Department of All The Monies and No Accountability! Everyone, this is a code Bon Bon! I repeat, this is a code Bon Bon! We’ve been burned and have to ride this out underground!
I’ll meet y’all in the solid gold bunker under Whole Foods.
“You are talking about relationships like only cis straight men and cis straight women exist, you are talking about family like only biological factors matter and adoption is ‘less than’, you equated being a woman to having a vagina, so yeah, it’s not even just the exclusion.”
That’s because I’m only focusing on an issue (paternity fraud) that affects relationships with cis straight men and cis straight women! Can you name a single gay couple or trans couple or cis/trans mixed couple affected by paternity fraud? No! So what does that community have to do with this issue? I’m not erasing them at all! I’m just not discussing something that’s relevant to them, which is perfectly acceptable. I’m allowed to have discussions that focus on something other than the LGBTQ community, I think.
“Caring about whether or not your children are biological is selfish,
That word doesn’t phase me anymore. I honestly believe that selfishness, as long as you’re not violating anybody’s negative rights, is at the very least least amoral and at most 100% the ideal form of morality.
“authoritarian”
How on Earth is it authoritarian? You already conceded that I have the right to choose what relationships I want to enter into and that I can enter/leave relationships for any reason. Choosing not to associate with someone else because they want to steal from me is not regulating that person’s sexual behavior. Or if it is, then it’s an acceptable form of it because it allows me to exercise my own rights.
I mean, really, why stop there at all? I guess anybody who doesn’t just give random women on the street all of their money is a fascist authoritarian misogynist. Like, you only want to support me if I enter a relationship with you? You patriarchal pig! Give me everything you own right now!
“and assumes that there is a hierarchy of human value, that your genetic material is somehow more important or more valuable than somebody else’s.”
It’s more valuable TO ME than somebody else’s. Which is fine because as a rational agent who is capable of conferring value onto things, I have the right to determine what is valuable to me and what isn’t.
And in any case if discriminating against the DNA of other people isn’t unacceptable to you either, otherwise you wouldn’t be supporting sexual selection of men by women. But your worldview is that women should dominate men, so women are allowed to decide/rank DNA that is more valuable to them and have a child with that alpha god and then force someone of lesser genetic value to take care of it, isn’t that right? But how dare men rank their DNA? They have no right to do that! Don’t they know that only women have that right?
When women start taking care of other people’s children and not suing hospitals for mixing up babies, then you’ll have something to talk about. But right now all you’re doing is championing ranking of DNA by women only and not by men, which is sexist beyond belief.
“If all humans are of equal value then it doesn’t matter who sired the children in your family.”
All humans aren’t equally valuable. Nobody has any value except the value that they give themselves.
Yeah, I kind of just had a DUH moment where I realized this is just another example of MRAs’ no, you! debating tactics. “You think you can interview me and write things because you’re a journalist? Ha! Why don’t you have a look at these interview questions!”
COMPLETELY OFF TOPIC: http://thesabbit.tumblr.com/post/91261301881/maxofs2d-hahaha-mens-rights-activist-and
Just saw it on my dash, had to share the lolz.
“”Men’s Rights” activist and self-proclaimed philosopher Stefan Molyneux pretends to be a woman posting a positive comment on his own video “debunking” Frozen but completely fails at account switching”
“Caring about whether or not your children are biological is selfish, authoritarian, and assumes that there is a hierarchy of human value, that your genetic material is somehow more important or more valuable than somebody else’s. If all humans are of equal value then it doesn’t matter who sired the children in your family.”
I don’t think it’s wrong for him to care about paternity of his children(if he can find a woman who want bear his children)
My only issue is how come he really believes that feminism actually force him to stay with mother when he doesn’t want to?
It’s not just you.
*glares at bs*
I’m catching up on this thread, but I’m starting to realize that if I comment on every ridiculous thing Bittersweet says I’ll clog up the internet.
@WWTH
I think he’d just aggressively trolling, since It’s hard to imagine Bittersweet thinks he sounds even remotely believable. It’s a compendium of #thathappened.
Time to switch to libertarian troll bingo, all. Get your card here: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3456/3184751741_44b5a0782e.jpg
You are missing the point here completely, but since you asked, yes, paternity issues affect all kinds of people, not just cishet people:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/06/18/jason-hanna-and-joe-riggs_n_5506720.html
“Only the surrogate mother — who has no biological relationship to the boys, since embryos were transferred to her — is on the birth certificates. In essence, the men are not legally defined as the parents of their own children. And though they have DNA tests for proof, they’re worried, particularly if something were to happen to one of them while the other still has not been able to co-adopt the other’s biological child.”
You guys do realize that there is more than one libertarian in the world, right? I get that you guys have had a libertarian troll on here, but that doesn’t mean that every libertarian is that one person. Just an FYI.
Also the name “Bittersteel” is a reference to this: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Aegor_Rivers
Why do I support libertarianism? Because they’re the only people who have unequivocally supported me and supported the idea that I should be free to have my own religion (not acceptable in France under the name of “secularism”) and also that I have the right to profit from my own labor. Traditionalism tells me to be a provider and protector for women because they’re weak, which I don’t think is fair. Women are more than capable of providing for and protecting themselves. Liberalism tells me that I have an obligation to provide for and protect women because it’s good for humanity. I don’t care what is good for humanity, especially since the people who claim I am selfish are only selfishly attempting to make me support their self-interests. I think everyone is more than capable of helping himself or herself and is more than capable of making his or her own choices in life and in dealing with the consequences.
My views on minimum wage: I don’t support it. I think it’s harmful and drives down wages. I also don’t think people have a right to a minimum wage and that people have the ability to negotiate their own contracts with their employers. If jobs wouldn’t pay anything without a minimum wage, why aren’t doctors, lawyers, engineers, and police officers paid only minimum wage?
So, you’re saying its completely impossible for a trans person or a gay person to be misled about fathering a child? You think this is a completely impossible thing to happen?
And you aren’t just talking about paternity fraud, you’re talking about relationships. You seem to be under the impression that the “alpha fucks, beta bucks” thing is an actual real thing that all women widely engage in, and that feminism is an attempt to consolidate women’s cuckolding powers over men.
Of course you’d say that. Some people are just more equal than others, right?
“Only the surrogate mother — who has no biological relationship to the boys, since embryos were transferred to her — is on the birth certificates. In essence, the men are not legally defined as the parents of their own children. And though they have DNA tests for proof, they’re worried, particularly if something were to happen to one of them while the other still has not been able to co-adopt the other’s biological child.”
And that’s terrible and it needs to be corrected. But that isn’t paternity fraud.