Let’s say that you’re the “Managing Editor” of a website known far and wide for calling women “whores,” as well as an assortment of other 4- and 5-letter words generally considered crude sexist slurs. Let’s just say that you had a convention, and that during this convention your official spokeswoman went on a bit of a name calling rampage on Twitter, repeatedly attacking a woman who had tried to report on said convention as an “attention whore,” a “fame whore,” and a “little whore,” and offering similar “whore”-based assessments to other critics of the site.
And let’s just say that despite all this you also had a desire to convince the world that your site was not actually the misogynistic cesspit that it so obviously is. Would you:
1) Apologize for using the words “whore” and “bitch” and “c*nt” and other similar sexist epithets against women.
2) In your capacity as editor, quietly remove the word “whore” (and “bitch” and “c*nt”) from future postings on the site, and tell your PR maven to maybe come up with a less misogynistic insult of choice.
3) Start calling men whores so that no one can accuse you of hating women because, see we use “whore” to refer to men too!
The answer, of course, is 3 — at least if you’re Dean Esmay, “Managing Editor” of A Voice for Men. In a recent comment thread on AVFM, he declared:
![Screen Shot 2014-07-08 at Tue, [Jul 8], 14 5](https://i0.wp.com/www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/screen-shot-2014-07-08-at-tue-jul-8-14-5.png?ssl=1)
CONFIDENTIAL TO D— E—-: No one is buying your bullshit. Also, if you want to try to convince the world that you’re a Friend of Sex Workers, you should probably stop using the word “whore” as an insult for women or men.
Also, I’m pretty sure NAMRAALT is playing Mad Games or BINGO
possible mod challenge: provide links to back up the claims made about WHTM shaming men based on quantity (or lack thereof) of sexual encounters?
“This hardly seems worth it but ableist language is not accepted on this blog.”
I apologize. Ableism is something that I still struggle with. I honestly didn’t mean to offend anybody with that part. I was just really upset. If anybody was offended, I’d be happy to talk to you more so that I can understand your perspective on this because it honestly is something new to me.
“why does it matter if the children you are taking care of happen to have come from somebody else’s genetic material? I have never understood this point. It’s a child, not some object.”
Um, because 1. as an organism I have a biological drive to pass on my own genes and 2. I have no desire to work extremely hard my entire life purely for the benefit of others if I’m not getting anything out of it at all. How on Earth is that fair? Like, right now I’m studying for a demanding career and it takes up a lot of my time. I don’t get to do all of the fun things that other people get to do. And those same people believe that after all that hard work, I should fund them so that they can continue having that lifestyle. They think I owe it to them and that I shouldn’t get any benefits out of my hard work. And that’s not fair at all. I don’t think that having a child that is related to you is a positive right in the sense that society has to give it to me. But I do think that I should be allowed to decide if I want to spend all of my hard earned money purely for the benefit of someone else, especially someone who thinks that I’m a slave/scum and despises me so much that they would cheat on me and use me. No thanks. I’m a human being too.
I opened up a troll bingo card a few minutes ago and started filling it with bittersteel’s talking points. I’ve got four so far – not bad.
Damn, I’ll have to go to Whole Foods tonight. Anything for feminism!
Didn’t we just have a troll who claimed to be a “minority” for being a white man living in a neighborhood of Latinos? Ah, whatever.
Once again, the nerd rage is there. Nerd equals mainstream now, kiddo.
Christ, try harder. Your song and dance routine has been done before.
@bittersteel
So I guess based on your experience?
You feel qualified to talk about the evil of feminism,or the evil of white women?
So let’s just said that all white women are evil,that immediately proves that your opinion on feminism that it is just to victimized men is absolutely right?
So where does that put us non-white feminists?
I’m not white you know,so you sincerely believes if I proclaimed myself as a feminist,you would said I am not the right kind of feminists?
Again I would want to questioned your stance on feminism,is it because of the way you have been treated by white women or what you actually read on internet?
Oh believe me I too have been treated worse by some white women and white men,but most of these people are liberals but it still won’t change my allegiance towards liberal values…
By the way I need to hear if there is a school out there that expelled a guy for asking a woman out,you don’t need to tell your life story.I certainly don’t expect you to hear mine or any of the women here..
Besides you still can’t refute our points
@ bittersteel
Dude, racists fucking suck. Racism is terrible and a huge problem, especially in ‘Murica, land of ironic xenophobia.
But the fact that racist people have been shitty to you does not give you a free pass to be a misogynist. This shit intersects. That’s why the current wave of feminism is all about intersectionality.
You think reinforcing the status quo helps? No. Feminists are hoping to dismantle the systems of oppression that affect all people, and while the focus is on patriarchy, it affects other oppression too. And feminism is not a monolith impervious to critique. You pointed out that the criticisms of it were coming from OTHER FEMINISTS.
You act like Womanists don’t exist, or that all feminists are rich upper class white women who don’t do feminism right.
What are you trying to prove?
“And none of his truly excellent women friends – of whom he has positively legions – has ever mentioned to him that it has happened to them (even though he concedes that might be because he just won’t let the conversation ever get around to anything personal cos he just doesn’t care. What a truly excellent friend he must be)”
We talk about other personal things. I don’t like talking about romantic lives because sex makes me uncomfortable and I don’t want to get upset. And most of them allow me to steer the conversation to something else if the topic over comes up.
Also guys, just because I don’t agree with you doesn’t mean that I’m a troll. And I’m not defending Dean Esmay at all, in case that isn’t clear. Dean Esmay doesn’t mean anything to me and neither does Paul Elam. Sometimes they’re way too inflammatory/stupid in the way that they discuss things and I wish that someone with more social awareness was running the movement. But the central message that they have is absolutely correct and it’s something that I believe in.
For starters, you’ve stated yourself that you are not dating, so you’re safe. But also, what you’ve described, ” I do think that I should be allowed to decide if I want to spend all of my hard earned money purely for the benefit of someone else, especially someone who thinks that I’m a slave/scum and despises me so much that they would cheat on me and use me” is an abusive relationship, which I wouldn’t advocate anyone willingly enter into.
Long story short, 1) women are individuals and people, 2) should you decide to try dating, you should be looking for a partner who shares your values and is nice to you and doesn’t treat you like a slave/scum.
Wha-what? Oh. Cool.
That is a good apology.
“Didn’t we just have a troll who claimed to be a “minority” for being a white man living in a neighborhood of Latinos? Ah, whatever.”
Wow, that’s incredibly racist of you to assume that just because I’m not a liberal that I must be pretending to be a minority. Obviously only Democrats should be allowed to speak for minorities. Minorities that don’t toe the party line aren’t minorities at all! Why won’t those minorities just shut up and realize that we’re giving them their voice by discussing their issues for them! I mean, Clarence Thomas and Thomas Sowell and Nikki Haley and Bobby Jindal practically aren’t minorities at all! They must secretly be white people pretending to be minorities! That’s it! That’s why they won’t let us speak for them!
Yeah, no. I’m not a white man living in a Latino neighborhood. I’m an Asian boy living in a white neighborhood in a white state and a white country. But I don’t have a problem with white people as a whole because I lived in a community where I was the only one like me, so there were no clustering of people of the same group with each other and no group polarization. I had a lot of people who didn’t like me and were white but also a few who did like me and were white. So I know that all white people aren’t bad and you won’t use that to convince me to give you my voice and speak for me.
OK. I realise that poor old bittersteel is all hot and bothered about paternity testing in Australia. Seeing as his fingers seem unable to do the googlewalk, I did it for him.
Surprise, surprise. Whaddya know. Paternity testing is not just legal in Australia. The government’s own legal advice people will help men who want to contest child support claims. The government has even gone so far as to formally accredit laboratories whose reports will be acceptable to the courts.
http://www.legalaid.qld.gov.au/legalinformation/Relationships-and-children/Child-support-and-maintenance/Pages/Entitlement-to-child-support-and-paternity-testing.aspx
The only cases I know of where DNA testing is invalid or inadmissible in civil court disputes are those where the samples were obtained without consent. But that’s applicable in practically all jurisdictions that I know of. Nothing special about Australia or France.
“Like, right now I’m studying for a demanding career and it takes up a lot of my time. I don’t get to do all of the fun things that other people get to do. And those same people believe that after all that hard work, I should fund them so that they can continue having that lifestyle. They think I owe it to them and that I shouldn’t get any benefits out of my hard work. And that’s not fair at all.”
Last time responding to you since you don’t really engage questions, but can you see how you’re projecting a whole lot of venom onto an imaginary person here? You’re imagining that a) anyone you might be interested in the future has frittered away her life on “fun” and a “less demanding” career, and based on that you believe that b) she will not respect you or any vows she takes, and will not only cheat on you, but lie to you and have another man’s child all to, c) get access to your bank account.
You not only have a very low opinion of all women to think that they are all like that, but you have a very low opinion of yourself if you feel that you would get as far as step b) with a woman like that.
You’ve already mentally put yourself 5-10 years in the future as an unhappy cuckolded man who is hard and embittered and are allowing that to color your relationships with people today. You would be better served to find a hobby that you like and direct this amount of attention towards it. I can’t guarantee that you’ll be a happier person as a result, but you can do it without having to worry about strangely specific what-ifs.
I’ve heard this before, and it makes no sense to me. You’re not genetically programmed to go on the internet and you do that anyway, so I’m not seeing how 1. works.
For 2. this is totally not even wrong territory. Marriage/a relationship is not the same as ownership. Your partner is able to have sex with as many or as few consenting adults as they want. It’s totally fine to be upset about this but that doesn’t mean they are treating you like a slave. Dictating to people who they can and can’t sleep with on the other hand IS treating someone like property.
Raising a child you are not biologically related to is no more “for the benefit of somebody else” than raising your own biological children. They’re both for the benefit of the child. Children are not some reward you get once you hit level 30.
I think bittersteel’s mod challenge should be having to back up his claims without using evo psych bullshit.
Or to keep his posts short, say under so many characters? Like a tweet.
I am laughing my ass off about the danger of getting expelled for asking a woman out because Title IX.
” I don’t get to do all of the fun things that other people get to do. I don’t think that having a child that is related to you is a positive right in the sense that society has to give it to me. But I do think that I should be allowed to decide if I want to spend all of my hard earned money purely for the benefit of someone else, especially someone who thinks that I’m a slave/scum and despises me so much that they would cheat on me and use me. No thanks. I’m a human being too.”
Don’t worry,it wouldn’t happen to you you said never approach a woman but did any of those woman aproach you apart from that group of obese women?
Why the hell do you still think feminist are the one to be blamed if you happen to meet a cuckolding woman,you said you’re a minority,do you have the same issues you have with the women in your minority group the same way you have with white women?
You’re obviously resent white women for bullying you,but I still can’t see how you can’t find a woman from your own community?
Or you really think that women of your community had been poisoned by feminism as well?
Did cheating by women happens a lot in your culture as well?
“And those same people believe that after all that hard work, I should fund them so that they can continue having that lifestyle. They think I owe it to them and that I shouldn’t get any benefits out of my hard work. And that’s not fair at all.”
Who are these people?!!
The feminists ?!!
Didn’t you know we’re still begging for an equal pay,so we don’t need people like you to fund us?!!!
@ bittersteel
Shiraz was making fun of a different troll, who was not a minority but claimed to be one by using the word literally. Zie was making fun of a past racist troll and hoping you weren’t also one.
Mmm, I’m not sure, this seems like the kind who will chew the furniture and pee on the rug.
“I’ve heard this before, and it makes no sense to me. You’re not genetically programmed to go on the internet and you do that anyway, so I’m not seeing how 1. works.”
Just because I’m not genetically programmed to do some things doesn’t mean that I’m not genetically programmed to do other things. Like, I’m not genetically programmed to use the internet, but I am genetically programmed to eat. Because eating is a biological imperative.
“2. this is totally not even wrong territory. Marriage/a relationship is not the same as ownership. Your partner is able to have sex with as many or as few consenting adults as they want. It’s totally fine to be upset about this but that doesn’t mean they are treating you like a slave. Dictating to people who they can and can’t sleep with on the other hand IS treating someone like property.”
I’m not dictating anything to anybody. I have the absolute right to enter into any relationships I wish on whatever grounds that I wish. If I refuse to enter into a relationship with someone because they have blue hair, I have that right. If I refuse to enter into a relationship with someone because they an STD, I have that right. That’s what freedom of association is. And I absolutely will refuse to be part of a relationship with someone who sleeps around and then saddles me with someone else’s child. I have that right too. You have a really twisted way of looking at it such that you seem to think that the woman is entitled to the relationship with me and if I refuse because I don’t want to be with someone who sleeps with other men, that’s misogyny. Well guess what? Women aren’t entitled to relationships or sex any more than men are, and I have the right to decide for myself if I want to be in a relationship with someone who treats me like garbage. She’s free to sleep with whomever she wishes, and is also free to deal with the consequences of her own actions like an adult. And I’m free to leave the relationship if I don’t like how she’s acting.
But in feminists’ worldview, I’m not free to do that and only women can set boundaries in the relationship because she has a vagina and needs to be taken care of. And you’re accusing me of being a misogynist who thinks that women can’t deal with the consequences of their own actions and choose whether or not to freely enter into contracts with men. LOL
“Raising a child you are not biologically related to is no more “for the benefit of somebody else” than raising your own biological children. They’re both for the benefit of the child. Children are not some reward you get once you hit level 30.”
The support of a beta male is not some reward you get when you hit level 30 either. And the child is someone else last time I checked. It’s not me. No benefit to me=I’m not going to do something that is time consuming, emotionally taxing, and unjust.
I should have said something to bittersteel earlier.
A simple online search would have told you that your “information” about paternity testing in Australia was wrong. The reference I linked for you was literally the first on the list when I searched “australia paternity tests”.
Had you done this for yourself, you should have realised that the source you got that from was unreliable. If you’ve not done similar cross-checking for all those other claims you’re making, I think you should be more cautious in making definitive statements based on others reports of unknown quality.
(It’s perfectly OK to treat someone as usually reliable if you have checked their work in the past and it’s been verified by research papers or other neutral sources. But if you’ve never checked anything for yourself, be prepared to be shot down in flames.)
@shiraz
Yeah, that was undfreeland in the “Creepy Comment of the Day” thread.
I was kind of feeling that vibe, but regulars have pointed out that those features (claiming to have been a feminist, claiming to have feminist friends, being a self described nerd or in other ways not popular) are common with some trolls.
@bittersteel
I missed your apology for using ableist language in an earlier comment. Noted and thanks for acknowledging that.
Actually we guys don’t believe that. You’re in college? I would have guessed you were still in high school. Go figure.
Oh look. Another troll who thinks only the bigotry that effects him exists.
How is it that racism is real but misogyny is something evil man hating feminists made up?
You don’t get to complain about your marginalized status due to membership in one oppressed group while shitting on another oppressed group. Not on this blog. And before you say anything, no we wouldn’t be accepting of a racist white feminist around here either.
Also, it just me or was bs’s parenting comment really offensive to adoptive and step parents?
This is from your own guys’ link: “The Child Support Agency will not accept a DNA test report that shows that you are not the father of the child.”
LOL, you guys just proved my own point for me.