Let’s say that you’re the “Managing Editor” of a website known far and wide for calling women “whores,” as well as an assortment of other 4- and 5-letter words generally considered crude sexist slurs. Let’s just say that you had a convention, and that during this convention your official spokeswoman went on a bit of a name calling rampage on Twitter, repeatedly attacking a woman who had tried to report on said convention as an “attention whore,” a “fame whore,” and a “little whore,” and offering similar “whore”-based assessments to other critics of the site.
And let’s just say that despite all this you also had a desire to convince the world that your site was not actually the misogynistic cesspit that it so obviously is. Would you:
1) Apologize for using the words “whore” and “bitch” and “c*nt” and other similar sexist epithets against women.
2) In your capacity as editor, quietly remove the word “whore” (and “bitch” and “c*nt”) from future postings on the site, and tell your PR maven to maybe come up with a less misogynistic insult of choice.
3) Start calling men whores so that no one can accuse you of hating women because, see we use “whore” to refer to men too!
The answer, of course, is 3 — at least if you’re Dean Esmay, “Managing Editor” of A Voice for Men. In a recent comment thread on AVFM, he declared:
![Screen Shot 2014-07-08 at Tue, [Jul 8], 14 5](https://i0.wp.com/www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/screen-shot-2014-07-08-at-tue-jul-8-14-5.png?ssl=1)
CONFIDENTIAL TO D— E—-: No one is buying your bullshit. Also, if you want to try to convince the world that you’re a Friend of Sex Workers, you should probably stop using the word “whore” as an insult for women or men.
I stand by my comment. I don’t think its “ableist” or wrong to point out that BS is not your garden variety libertarian but someone who is in deep distress and confusion about the significance of his own actions in the world and the meaning of other people’s w/r/t himself.
He actually believes that “feminists” are going to “pick his name out of the phonebook” and “use the government” to “take his money” such that he needs to be ready to “destroy everything” that he owns and has earned in order to prevent these phantasmagorical menaces from taking his stuff to support the children of the “alpha thugs” they are carrying. If he believes this–and I think he does–he has seriously lost touch with any actual social he could be living in. In the real world he is surrounded by many kinds of people all of whom are just trying to live life as best they can. Strange women he has never met are not trying to “steal his stuff” and the government is not going to break down his door and throw him in jail to be raped by strange men to provide child support to their children. The world is full of injustice and men are affected by that injustice as much as women but he is not being targeted by women, or by the government on behalf of women and neither are those men he both identfies with (men in jail because they can’t pay childsupport) and fears (men in jail who will rape him/men outside of jail who are alpha males).
How would you describe this thinking? Does it bear any relationship to the real world you see around you?
Geeze, can we also stop talking about breakdowns/crazy/other ablest stuff too?
This has turned sour real fast and is not at all what I am used to seeing here.
@Buttercup Q. Skullpants: The Randian Rainbow Fish is a great primer. But the love in my heart is reserved for Objectivist Harry Potter.
WWTH,
You think Sebhai is veganwhat’shernymcapsule?
Maybe.
Then again, the internet seems to have an abundance of folks who can’t acknowledge their mistakes on it and statistics are clumpy so, we may have just gotten unlucky today.
@ Isabelle
That comment from 2aimai probably shouldn’t be encouraged. That kind of ableism doesn’t fly here, fyi. -_-;
Sorry, I lost it,You guys can banned me if you want.but if he comes again you have to let me through.
You know I’m from Asia as well like him…but I still don’t understand why he has to take issues with paternity fraud,even it is true what he said that feminist is somewhat behind it.
Surely he can’t assume feminists in my country is somewhat involved in it as well?
He seems to resent white women as well which I guess is the reason he come to associate feminism with the ‘evilness’ of white women…
@2aimai
You still don’t really know enough about him to actually conclude that he’s mentally ill. So yeah, you’re being disablist.
@maistrechat
Indeed, and worst, it mostly protects the man as he can refuse to take the test to establish paternity. The judge wont look kindly upon him refusing, as it would definitely rule him out as the father. Especially if he has not provided other evidences that he is not the father.
Aaaaaand, lo and behold, bittersteel who was called out for ableism apologized full stop, but 2aimai doubles down.
Look, 2aimai, being an asshole =/= having a mental illness. Believing silly things does not make a person bad, inherently. Do not equate the two.
bittersteel, I think we found some of your ‘feminist’ ex-friends >_>
Btw, feminists do not call for men to be raped at all, let alone in prison. If you show me to any person, feminist of otherwise, who does, I will be having words with them.
http://damsel-in-de-tech.blogspot.com/2014/04/stop-advocating-for-prison-rape.html
I put sebhai on moderation. 2aimai is heading that direction too. There are plenty of ways to criticize MRAs without resorting to “only fat women will date you” or “he’s insane.” That sort of thing is not welcome here; if you want to comment here, you need to cut it out.
Thank you, David.
2aimai,
Yeah, bigots believe some bizarre shit. I live in Kentucky. You should hear the conspiracy theories racist white bumblefucks and homophobic creationists types come up with. They make The Twilight Zone look plausible. That does not mean they have mental illnesses. It means that people will do mental gymnastics to believe things they are motivated to believe, especially if they were raised to believe it and their culture supports it.
Our culture supports misogyny. Most do.
When you “strand by” your ablist comment you insult everyone here who lives with actual mental illnesses and still manage not to be misogynist assholes. You are suggesting that all errant, evil beliefs are held by mentally ill people and that “normal” people are all good and correct and thus inherently better and trustworthy, while people with mental illnesses are not.
Cut it out or take a walk.
Thanks, David.
@2aimai:
People who are qualified to determine whether or not someone as a mental illness: the person themselves, their therapist, their psychiatrist
People who are not: literally every other person on the face of the planet
Et tu, Isabelle?
Damn.
Look–I am not equating “being an asshole with being mentally ill.” Not at all. And nothing that I said indicates that I think that. I do think that Bitter Steel’s solipsism and his paranoia are serious problems for him and inform his writing and thinking to such a degree that there is no point engaging with him. He is a very sad and frightened person who has latched on to a convenient fiction and an identification with MRA/Libertarian philosophy. He isn’t serious about learning or discussing anything–he lives in a demon haunted world. He’ isn’t an asshole because he’s crazy. And he’s not crazy because he’s an asshole. He’s just a sad and frightened person who prefers the world he’s constructed in which he’s a permanent victim to a real world in which he might have friends and relationships. He is, at least, important in that world–he’s a target! Women want his money! Governments are out to get him! He clearly prefers that world to the real world. I don’t mind arguing with libertarians and MRAs and right wingers online but when someone explains to you seriously that their chosen miserable life is ok because of the heat death of the universe since their misery will not be any worse than the happiness of their enemies in a couple of thousand years they are signalling to you that they are not to be taken seriously as a counterparty to a discussion. Its really more of a cry for help and attention than it is an actual argument.
I read here a lot but I don’t post very often because I usually find that something in the way I write causes some other poster some kind of problem. I’m only coming back to respond because I see that posting once and then not bothering is seen as a sign of trolling. I’m not that. I’m just a perfectly ordinary ciswoman/feminist. I always publish under this name and with this avatar and I always stand by my comments.
OK, there are a few more comments attacking me for abelism so I’m out. Its your comment thread and I am not aiming to make anyone unhappy.
Those fellows are so industrious! I would have figured they’d be too busy, what with having to stack our ill-gotten government-issued gold bullion into suitably hard chairs.
@Flying Mouse – Objectivist Harry Potter is brilliant! Nothing like a cold dousing of Ayn Rand to completely dispel the magic.
After reading some of the horrible comments in this thread, I feel like I need a Patronus and some chocolate to cheer up again.
That’s fine. That’s not what we’re calling you out on, fyi.
It’s the ‘disturbed, crazy and dysfunctional’ parts and what that implies that does not sit well with us (and shouldn’t with you if you want to do intersectional feminism, seriously, read up on it and listen to disabled people when they call you out).
I’ve seen plenty of people who are a nightmare ideologically and believe in all sorts of unfounded odd theories, yet function just fine (see: Tea Party). I’ve known wise, knowledgable people who’ve had serious breakdowns, because mental illness has little to do with how well informed you are. Bitter was a particularly smug and naive college student who really needs to stop denouncing wide swathes of people based on his baseless prejudices, but his lack of empathy and experience doesn’t mean he couldn’t function in everyday life.
Wow, trying to catch up with this thread has been… interesting.
2aimai,
You’re comment was wrong. Standing by it is wrong. If you read here often you should know how splash damage works.
Stop making excuses and just go somewhere your brilliant ability to diagnose over the internet is appreciated.
Fundamentalist religionists who believe in an after life will sometimes tell atheists who do not that their life is meaningless and sad because it has an end. They are basically making the same argument that bs made on a personal scale.
They are incorrect, as is bs. People enjoy baseball games and find playing their best and showing good sportsmanship so that everyone can enjoy the game has value not only despite the game having an end, but because it does. Time on the field is precious for people who love to play baseball, in part, because game time is limited. I feel similarly about life.
That does not mean that the people who think my life is without meaning are mentally ill. It means they have trouble seeing the world from a point of view they do not share.
You’re having a similar problem right now.
No sebhai, we really don’t.