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$MONEY$ a voice for men lying liars MRA paul elam

Paul Elam: All Your Donations Are Belong to Me

Paul Elam, in his hovel.

Heh. I’m on my annual semi-vacation this week, and was planning on keeping my postings here fairly light. But the news waits for no one. And by “news” I mean the daily parade of ridiculousness coming from the Men’s “Human Rights” camp. So here’s a quick report on the latest bit of high irony involving A Voice for Men.

Well, I was wrong. I’ve often noted that the Men’s Rights movement in general, and A Voice for Men in particular, doesn’t actually provide any real help for any real men. Sure, as far as I can tell, precisely zero of the hundreds of thousands of dollars A Voice for Men has raised from donors over the years has gone into providing actual services for men — say, funding a hotline for troubled men or some other practical program that doesn’t primarily involve yelling at women online. But never let it be said that none of this money gods to help men.

Because, it turns out, that money has been going to help men. Or at least that subset of men that consists of one Paul Elam of Houston Texas.

After being pressed for details about A Voice for Men’s finances by anonymous commenters on Reddit, a certain Twitterer named @DavidFutrelle and a journalist from MSNBC, Elam has finally fessed up and admitted that all the money donated to his website goes directly to him. But don’t take my word for it. Here’s what Elam had to say in a post from yesterday:

Every dollar donated goes right into my pocket. I spend that money on this website and on activist efforts at my own discretion, considering the opinions of the AVFM management team that volunteers to help run this place. … I depend on the site for my living, and to do as much FTSU as possible while I am at it.

In the past, of course, Elam was a bit more, well, elusive about where the money was going, talking about the costs of paying for web hosting and stock images rather than, say, the costs of paying the mortgage of one Paul Elam. Maybe “elusive” isn’t the correct word. “Deceptive” might be more like it.

You may also recall this pitch he once made for donations (I’ve put the best parts in bold):

I am tired of seeing a comparative handful of men and women cough up the lion’s share of financial assistance when most, even some who come here every day to read and cheer on FTSU, won’t cough up five fucking dollars to help us out; who are just fine as long as none of the burden, even a trivial part of it, is on them. …

[T]he longer I am at this, the less patience I have with dead weight, those who think AVFM is a fucking source of entertainment, or a life preserver for when the tables finally, inevitably turn against them.

In a way, I feel even worse now for most of the men who will make contact with AVfM looking for that lifeline. Unless their story is one that has the potential for me to exploit and gain media attention to THE CAUSE, then all I will have for them is a link to this article.

Well, and perhaps this piece of advice.

If the system has ruined your life, join the club. You are now in the ranks of men you have ignored your whole life. My advice to you is simple. Take your fucking quietly and with grace. Expect the same compassion you have always extended to those men who wore the shoes you are now wearing.

If you want things to change, then stock up on Ramen, get cozy in your studio apartment and join us in the fight to fix this shit. Don’t ask us to help you, but rather give your life the only meaning it may have left, as someone ready and willing to turn your meager existence into helping others who have been similarly screwed over.

In other words, Elam told troubled men turning to his site for help that they should stock up on Ramen noodles — and pay his bills. Oh, and on several occasions he’s boasted about taking donations from people taking the money from their unemployment checks.

As for the other people who put in so much time and energy at his site? As far as I can figure it from Elam’s evasive post yesterday, they earn nothing but a “thanks.”

At the end of each day, even with the incredible levels of help I get from people like Dean Esmay, David King, Al Martin and every one of the incredible people who work at AVFM, I am still target number one. I am a target for feminists posing as concerned MHRAs, yellow hacks like David Futrelle, and a target for many in the media who would love nothing better than to publish my personal financial information after putting their disgusting spin on it.

As you might have gathered from that quote, Elam remains indignant that anyone would even ask where the money goes.

And that goes for the money he recently raised that was supposedly earmarked to pay the security costs of AVFM’s conference. About that, he says only:

we hired four police officials (three officers and one supervisor) for coverage of the entire event and also hired a local attorney, paying his retainer in advance.  We also had to engage our regular attorney, and have not yet been billed for their services.

In effect, we spent the money raised on precisely what we said we would spend it on, and have set aside what little remained for the next conference.

Really? According to costhelper.com, off-duty police officers generally cost $40-60 an hour; this Sheriff’s department puts the costs at $27-$31 an hour for each of its officers, including administrative fees. Even assuming that AVFM paid at the top of this range — $60 an hour — it would have cost them only $7200 to pay for four officers working ten hours each of the three days of the conference.

The amount that AVFM might have paid for legal fees depends on how much their lawyers charge per hour, and how many hours they worked. Assuming each lawyer charged $200 per hour and worked thirty hours over the three days of the conference — which I highly doubt — the cost for their legal assistance would have added up to $12,000. If AVFM actually paid even half that for legal fees I will eat my cats.

Even with these extremely generous assumptions, AVFM would have paid out only a little over $19,000 for security and legal fees. AVFM raised more than $30,000 for “security.”

In the interest of full disclosure, I should note that I also ask readers for donations. But I’ve always made clear that aside from donations specifically earmarked for other things the money goes to me. (And the cats.) And I don’t demand that donors pay me $20,000 per quarter — $80,000 a year — on top of whatever donations come in between the quarterly fundraisers, not to mention special “security” fundraisers.

I’m very grateful to those who donate to me — and indeed to everyone who’s contributed time and effort and knowledge and artistic skills to help the site — but I take in only a fraction of what Elam evidently takes in. And I don’t ask for money from those who are themselves broke.

In the comments on AVFM, the regulars are of course rallying around Elam. Then again, I can’t imagine anyone critical of what he does with the money would remain unbanned there for long.

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cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

Looks like we’re on for a game of whack-a-troll.

katz
6 years ago

I’m assuming kittehs will soon whack these comments for great justice, but in the meantime, it appears that CVC has no concept that one might respond to a disagreeing comment in any other manner than a protracted, antagonistic argument.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

What is an offputting personality? I feel like maybe I need another illustration.

katz
6 years ago

I’d say a blithe refusal to acknowledge ableism is sufficient cause for a ban. Does anyone else agree?

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

I still think we should ban people for being tedious, but sure, ableism is also ban-worthy.

pallygirl
pallygirl
6 years ago

They’re tedious and double-down when asked to apologise, so they don’t respect other people’s boundaries. They’re not adding anything to conversations, and tend to talk about what they want – previously they haven’t really replied to any conversations.

This mental health ableism is annoying, it’s a bit like a toddler saying “you poopyhead” as many times as they can before they get time outed. It’s not a mature attitude, and it places their own desire to write what they want over the rights of the audience here not to read the damn BS that is in other areas of the internets.

kittehserf MOD
kittehserf MOD
6 years ago

katz, I agree about the ableism, and everything else.

Now, from the Comments Policy:

Beyond that: If you’re especially, or persistently, offensive, disruptive, or tedious, I’ll put you on moderation, which means your comments won’t go up until I get a chance to look at them, and maybe not even then. Things I find especially tedious include arguing for the sake of arguing, painfully literal thinking, and people who take over threads by posting dozens or even hundreds of comments in a day. In real life, that would be considered boorish behavior, and it’s really no different online.

TCVC ticks all the boxes there. We haven’t even got to the slurs part yet.

Go away, troll. Take your indignation and whining somewhere else.

Damn, we’re gonna need more mods from different time zones at this rate! Dinner is calling me with its siren song of hoki in breadcrumbs.

Phoenician in a time of Romans
Phoenician in a time of Romans
6 years ago

@kittehserf: I AM DRUNK WITH POWER

“Power Corrupts… What the Hell Else is it For?” – Howard Chaykin, _American Flagg_.

kittehserf MOD
kittehserf MOD
6 years ago

Phoenicians, true dat!

::twirls moustache::

kittehserf MOD
kittehserf MOD
6 years ago

::snort:: Oh, I see: the Chartreuse Pill said they’d never direct a comment at … whoever it was, me? Pecunium? again.

Yeah, people are gonna be so upset about that.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

There’s nothing that declares an intent to contribute to a conversation in a mature and thoughtful way quite like “I’m not talking to you”.

brooked
6 years ago

A shout out to American Flagg!?! I now love you Phoenician.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

So, guess what I just discovered via Tumblr that people have been talking about on Fox News recently? Food stamps, and the terribly inappropriate things people supposedly buy with them!

Seems like an odd choice of news source for someone pretending to be a leftist vegan, huh?

(Troll smarter, dude.)

Flying Mouse
Flying Mouse
6 years ago

So of all the offensive, insensitive junk that CVC has spewed, zie decided that the right to fat-shame was going to be zir hill to die upon?

Interesting.

emilygoddess - MOD
emilygoddess - MOD
6 years ago

CVC, I see you once again failing to engage with the replies to you. Pecunium detailed his own history of applying for food stamps/EBT, and also laid out what exactly he was objecting to in your comments (hint: saying that someone’s weight indicates that their food choices ought to be restricted is exactly what people say about EBT users who appear overweight). I don’t know if your reading comprehension sucks, or you were doing it deliberately, but selectively responding to his comments to make him look like the unreasonable one didn’t fool anyone.

And no, whoever asked you not to use “nutjob” or other terms for mental illness as pejoratives was not trolling. That’s one of our community standards here, because surprisingly, those of us with mental illnesses don’t appreciate the implication that our medical conditions are something we should be ashamed of.

Kittehs, thank you for being on the job! I was working, and then sleeping. I hope it wasn’t too much trouble!

Lea
Lea
6 years ago

A man telling women that calling pregnancy a medical condition is insulting to women?

I could spit nails.

Fuck that guy. I hope we never see hide nor hair of him again.

Thanks mods! You’re the best.
Please accept this fluffy unicorn kitty as a token of my appreciation.

https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/5320049920/h08D2AD45/

emilygoddess - MOD
emilygoddess - MOD
6 years ago

I’ll just repeat what I said in the other thread: the medicalization of pregnancy and birth is alarming, and the excessive focus on the precious babby can lead medical staff to ignore the mother’s wishes or inflict permanent damage on her (see: doctors ordering c-sections because the birth is taking “too long”, etc). I can see why women would want to opt out of all that, including rejecting the very notion of pregnancy as a medical matter, and I respect that.

But the context in which I called pregnancy a medical condition was the issue of contraception and abortion. As long as people (particularly cis men) try to tell women that they can “just put it up for adoption” or try to pretend that pregnancy and birth are just minor inconveniences as opposed to the incredibly difficult and risky times they really are, I am not going to mince words about exactly what they’re trying to inflict on people.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

I also thought it was a pretty sad case of linguistic fail that dude didn’t seem to understand that part of the reason why pro-choice people keep hammering on the idea of birth control and abortion as medical issues is because the idea that medical decisions are made between a patient and their doctor and are by definition meant to be a. private and b. pragmatic is already well established. Given that context it was a pretty classic case of someone wandering in on a conversation and going “hi, I have a laughably weak understanding of the topic that’s being discussed and no personal experience to offer, but let me splain it to you anyway”.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

Then again, “splain things you don’t understand in the most abrasive and condescending manner possible” seems to be this person’s default mode.

Lea
Lea
6 years ago

Emilygoddess,
We may disagree here. I don’t consider it alarming. I like women not being treated like they should endure something dangerous and painful that puts incredible strain on their bodies as if it is not a medical condition because she’s a woman being the norm. “Natural” does not mean “safe”. If pregnancy and birth were things that happened to a man’s body, every man who did it would be hailed as a brave hero. I’m glad the days of birthing where ever we can, accepting pain as the curse of Eve, then getting back to work are over for most women. I’m glad mother and infant mortality rates are down because of the medical interventions available to them. Women dying in unbelievable pain is also natural. Chlamydia is still the leading cause of blindness worldwide because infants get it in their eyes leaving the birth canal. I’m wary of denying pregnancy is a medical condition.

I’m glad for mandatory screenings for Strep B that save lives by mandatory IV drip of antibiotics during birthing.

I think what is alarming is how doctors and staff view women. You’re right, there is as much misogyny in medicine as there is everywhere else and that needs to change. My body and my birth should not be up to a doctor who doesn’t value my rights. I should not have my pee monitored constantly for no reason or be made to accept fasts, invasive interventions etc. for not good reason. It is the culture, not medical science that is to blame for that stuff.

Midwives who do home births can be just as dismissive and cruel to the women who hire them and some of them give out water and call it “homeopathic medicine”. Some encourage not cutting the cord, but leaving it attached to the placenta as it rots. That’s dangerous. Things need to change all over. Science based care should be available with respect and compassion.

I’m all for women doing whatever they want with their bodies. If they want to assume the risks, they can give birth where and how ever they like. But pregnancy and birth are medical conditions. Pregnancy is not an illness, no. It is a unique physical consideration that requires various levels of care. If pregnancy is not a medical condition, then why pay for doctors visits or hospital stays for poor women? She doesn’t NEED painkillers, right? So, why should tax payers pay for it? I would not put that past right wingers in the US.

Skye
Skye
6 years ago

Not just my friends, but A LOT of women would and in fact do take offense at pregnancy being termed a medical condition. You can watch the documentary The Business of Being Born, as well as any videos by or about Ina May Gaskin. There’s a whole lot of women rejecting the “medical model” of pregnancy and childbirth.

Ok. I haven’t finished the thread, but the Business of Being Born & Ina May freaking Gaskin. Ugh. Not enough contempt in the world. A biased ‘documentary’ by a washed up talk show host and the wife of a cult leader who let one of her own babies die?

No, just no.

Pregnancy, while not ‘unusual’ does have health ramifications. More so for some women than others. Anything that can have such a long term effect on your health is a ‘medical’ condition, even if you’re one of the lucky ones with no issues of any kind (in that case, it would be a temporary condition)

Lea
Lea
6 years ago

condition not consideration
How did that?
I can’t even…

Lea
Lea
6 years ago

Skye,
Why do people think that just because a film is a “documentary” it is not skewed toward the creators agenda? Documentaries are not necessarily neutral or true. Some documentaries are not much better than infomercials.

emilygoddess - MOD
emilygoddess - MOD
6 years ago

Lea, I don’t think we disagree so much as I failed to define “medicalization”. I was referring to the tendency (which many health car providers in all specialties have) to see the condtion and not the person, and to go ahead and treat the condition without much regard for the person’s preference. You won’t find me arguing that ~natural~ is better or that midwives and doulas are magically more caring than doctors, because I don’t believe those things.

brooked
6 years ago

How about we fix the problems and make improvements to the “medical model” in every aspect of health care? Particularly since I don’t see how we can reject it wholesale. Are these pregnancy don’t medical people just writing off women with high risk pregnancies? People can be passionate about important things without being self-righteous and dictatorial.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

I feel like the problems that women often encounter with being treated disrespectfully, having their preferences ignored, and so on during birth in hospitals happen not because birth being treated as a potential medical emergency is bad, but because our culture is saturated with misogyny and therefore, unsurprisingly, so are some of the people who work in hospitals. It’s not the fact that this process is taking place in a medical context that’s causing the problems, it’s the fact that the culture in general encourages treating women like idiots whose silly little girl feelings aren’t important.

Skye
Skye
6 years ago

Nthing Cassandrakitty.

That’s why midwives snd doulas aren’t always more willing to listen also.

The entire problem can be attributed to misogyny.

Skye
Skye
6 years ago

Lea, I have no idea, but it’s extremely aggravating that so many do.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

I also find the idea that using drugs to manage pain during birth is “unnatural” deeply misogynistic and anti-feminist.

Ally S
6 years ago

The entire problem can be attributed to misogyny.

I disagree. The problem can be attributed to an intersection of misogyny and disablism perpetuated by medical institutions. Dominant models of patient care encourage practitioners to view the patient as an object to diagnose and treat rather than a suffering human being who needs to be taken care of. That is why so many people are traumatized by hospital visits, especially if they are forcibly institutionalized.

marinerachel
marinerachel
6 years ago

The supposed excessive medicalisation of pregnancy and delivery is what’s resulting in the births in hospitals, vaginal or c-section, becoming safer and safer for the mother and baby. Rejection of the extraordinary health ramifications of pregnancy and birth ie: natural childbirth advocates, anyone discouraging prenatal care results in increased morbidity. It’s studied extensively. There’s not a discussion to be had on the matter.

Doctors sometimes ignore patients’ wishes. There’s no support for the notion this is more prevalent within the context or labour and delivery. The idea doctors perform c-sections because they pay more or because they want to get to their golf game is not supported by any evidence.

My experience, having worked in the administrative side of obstetrics and gynaecology, is while physicians make mistakes and have shitty days there is no such thing as the unnecessary c-section. The most common scenario when someone had a c-section they didn’t want goes thusly: The doctor attempted a forceps and vaccuum delivery despite knowing efforts were futile and that vaginal delivery was going to result in brain damage to the fetus. After confirming delivering the baby vaginally simply was not safe to the baby, an emergency c-section was performed. Now the patient is screaming YOU RUINED MY CHILDBIRTH EXPERIENCE because they feel completely threatened and vulnerable having not successfully pushed the baby out themselves and refuse to accept their child’s brain if not life was saved by the surgical procedure they endured.

If people stopped shaming women who don’t deliver their babies vaginally there really wouldn’t be a problem but people are so profoundly ashamed at having not had a vaginal delivery they refuse to accept the health benefit their c-section had to either themself or their child and blame the very people who protected them. Yes, the babies they deliver via c-section often could have been pushed out but the resulting health complications would be worse than those of a c-section for the patient, the baby or both. No one denies these babies almost always would have eventually been pushed out. Doesn’t make it safe.

I’ve seen every documentary on the matter. They’re all fucking stupid and completely neglect the surgeon’s perspective and the various nuanced reasons we perform c-sections. And for god’s sakes, if a delivery is taking ages and the doctor has a prior engagement, they leave and a colleague takes over. We don’t have enough ORs in Canada to support this supposed conspiracy against women’s deliveries. We literally don’t have the resources to perform c-sections to save time. Do you know how much it costs and how long it takes to turn over an OR anyways?

marinerachel
marinerachel
6 years ago

Wanting to manage pain during delivery is as natural as it comes. Hygiene’s unnatural too but we don’t shout “OH NO THAT’S UNNATURAL” when the delivering physician washes their hands. Who cares if it’s unnatural? It’s safe and effective and makes life more pleasant for everyone involved. It’s much nicer for the doctor and patient when the person having the baby isn’t suffering in extraordinary pain, begging for relief.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

Pain relief during dental work is “unnatural” too, and I don’t see the people who advocate for women to eschew pain relief during birth suggesting that we stop numbing people’s mouths before they get their teeth drilled into.

weirwoodtreehugger
6 years ago

I’ve been gaslighted by doctors and other people in the health care industry numerous times. That doesn’t mean modern medicine is bad. It means the people who work in medicine are human beings. Not saints who are completely immune from our culture and its problems.

brooked
6 years ago

My mother gives autocratic doctors tons of shit. She refused to have a hysterectomy for years and years, she felt her doctor was acting like it was no biggie for a post-menopausal women, but she didn’t agree to have one until it was medically necessary. She friends with this doctor, but gave him the nickname “Genghis” Kahn which, much to his chagrin, caught on with the other doctors because they thought it was hilariously spot-on.

She also gave an epic takedown to a doctor who told her during her first physical with him that she should get gastric bypass surgery because that worked well for “women like her”. (She did not become friends with that doctor.). My mom is awesome.

Skye
Skye
6 years ago

Doctors sometimes ignore patients’ wishes. There’s no support for the notion this is more prevalent within the context or labour and delivery. 

I agree with you. I hope I didn’t imply I thought it was. I do feel this attitude affects women more than men in general though. Ally is probably right about disablism having an impact as well, but I think that might be not quite as strong. Also, again not all doctors are like this and many folks outside the healthcare or medical fields can ignore “the little woman. ” (see recent video on male politicians in US arguing about reproductive health ignore the female senator who tries to interject for twenty minutes)

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

I’m really not OK with people ignoring the misogyny to focus entirely on disablism, especially on a blog like this. There’s a very clear narrative within medicine where female bodies are framed as inherently dysfunctional and in need of constant intervention in a way that male bodies are not, and it echoes misogyny in the general culture. Again, this isn’t because people in the medical field are uniquely evil, it’s because they’re the products of a misogynistic culture.

Melissia
6 years ago

Agreed with Cassandra. There’s also no reason they should be mutually exclusive, either. Both of them together can add up to horrible shit.

Ally S
6 years ago

Disablism is found medical institutions, regardless of whether all people in the medical field are disablist assholes. Pointing this out is not the same as saying that the problem boils down to nothing but disablism. I made my point in response to someone who was saying that the entire problem could be attributed to misogyny. That’s totally false.

I’m not even saying that people always need to bring up disablism when discussing the unique problems that women face in medical institutions. I just don’t want people to think that disablism in medical institutions is somehow entirely unrelated. It’s like how talking about classism alone is acceptable, but explicitly saying that classism is the only form of oppression isn’t.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

When we’re talking specifically about how birth is handled, as we are in this thread, misogyny actually is the main issue, and should be treated as such.

(Even though people who’re disabled will obviously get yet another layer of bullshit piled on them when giving birth that abled people won’t have to deal with).

Ally S
6 years ago

When we’re talking specifically about how birth is handled, as we are in this thread, misogyny actually is the main issue, and should be treated as such.

Of course. I wasn’t even going to bring up disablism until Skye said that the problem is nothing but misogyny. And now that they have now amended their position, there’s no reason for me to bring up disablism anymore.

pecunium
6 years ago

I didn’t say it was “wrong”. I said there are plenty of people who would object to the term “medical condition” being used for pregnancy, and plenty who would take offense to that. And there are. Get over it. Move on.

You brought that up because? If you don’t care, and people here don’t care… why do you care enough to tell us some people object?

And the thing not gotten over isn’t the use of the term, nor your attempt to inform us of something we already knew, but rather your method of engagement/non-engagement to such issues.

It’s your behaviour, which is the issue, not the subject you choose to discuss.

Here we go again. Apples and oranges apples. The thing is both those are true statements.

And the issue of what Elam is/isn’t allowed to do with money given to him is directly relevant to the question of SNAP Benefits (since you object to the common usage term). Money given to him isn’t constrained, so it’s not your place to say he buys the wrong, or too much food.

Nothing I have said is flat out unjustifiably wrong and you have not proven that in any way.

When you say Elam ought be allowed to buy the food he chooses to buy, because you think his girth calls his decision making into question… that’s flat out wrong.

When you say that we, who didn’t provide any of that money have such a right of oversight, that’s flat out wrong.

But please, be so kind as to explain how those aren’t things which are wrong.

While you’re at it you can explain how quoting you, addressing my complaints with your statements and justifications while detailing my arguments against them is “dishonest” as opposed to your Reaganesque, “there you go agains” with no further support for your position.

What I see, actually, is that you got your feelings hurt when I insulted you. Which doesn’t bother me. It’s my intent when I insult peope that it should bother them.

Gen
Gen
6 years ago

I don’t agree that there’s no such thing as a bad c-section. At all. And I have been through the L&D process 3 time and there is much more misogyny there than at other places. Disablism does play a role too.

I was told by the first obgyn that I visited that I am too small to ever deliver a baby naturally so we should just book a c-section. He refused to even let me do a trail of labour, even though having the baby vaginally was very, very important to me. He belittled me for my wish to have as natural a birth as possible and was just generally dismissive, much like marinerachel was doing in her comment.

That is not OK. Until that baby is out and drawing their first breath, the person whose body is on the line is the one who makes the calls. I don’t believe in judging or shaming women’s choices wrt their birth, but that includes not rolling my eyes because someone wants an unmedicated birth. They have their reasons, and they should be the ones calling the shots.

I discussed my needs with my second ob for my first baby. I told him straight up that I would never, ever consent to an episiotomy, that I’d rather have the worst tears and shit out of my vagina for the rest of my life because I have a history of abuse in that regard. He said sure, of course. He at least was willing to give me a trail of labour – until it became almost 7oclock and time for the shift change. I was strapped to a delivery table, screaming at the doctor “No episiotomy”, held down by nurses and the doctor just went ahead and cut one any way.

That is not okay. In no way is that okay. And that sort of thing happens a lot. A lot a lot.

So don’t tell me that there’s no such thing as a bad c-section or that it’s only women judging women for not giving birth in a certain way that leaves people fucked up after giving birth.

I can assure you, the rank misogyny often plays a huge part in that.

Gen
Gen
6 years ago

I just wanted to say, things being done to people like what happened to me is part of the reason why people choose to have unassissted births, like I did with my third. Now that I’m further away from the trauma I might choose differently if I chose again now, but at the time I would literally have rather died and the baby with me than go through something like that again.

katz
6 years ago

Здравствуй, Пекюниум, я учусь Росский язык.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

Yeah, I have to say, marinerachel, I get that you’re feeling defensive about your profession, but there are lots and lots of women who’ve had horrible experiences with labor and birth where they were treated very badly by the medical staff they were working with (there are several in my own family, actually), and some of your comments are coming across as if you think those women are just making it up, or somehow misunderstanding what happened to them.

Also let’s not forget that we’re not all living in the same places and this stuff can vary a lot depending on the specific healthcare system you’re dealing with, as well as when you gave birth (putting women into twilight sleep really was a thing that happened at one point, and women who gave birth during that time period will have had a very different experience from women who gave birth in the exact same hospital last week).

Ally S
6 years ago

@Gen

That is just horrific. =[ I’m so sorry you had to go through all of that traumatizing medical abuse. :: hugs ::

Argenti Aertheri
6 years ago

Also, about “They are used to impose a sense of burden and shame on people by making it impossible to eat “nice” food” LOL! I applied online and never had to see anyone face to face about it whatsoever. NO shame, no burden. And plenty of “nice food”. “Nice food” is listed on what is available to buy with EBT.

Yeah, that’s why despite being on welfare (sorry, SAGA, state administered general assistance) the fact I live with my parents meant my mother and I had to go for an extremely degrading interview to prove I was expected to feed myself before I got food stamps. Not EBT, food stamps. SAGA is also an EBT benefit! (Which is fucking useless btw, give me a dollar amount not ending in a round number that I can only spend where places accept EBT? Yeah I can totally feed my fish just fine having to withdraw the amount ATMs will let me >.< )

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

It seems like the various welfare systems (in pretty much every country) are usually built in such a way that any official within the system who feels like making the application process humiliating for the applicant can do so pretty easily.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

Actually I wonder how that works with the farmers markets here that accept EBT cards. There are usually some stalls that sell prepared food, so can people only use the cards at the ones that sell produce rather than say the stall that sells samosas?