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Paul Elam: All Your Donations Are Belong to Me

Paul Elam, in his hovel.

Heh. I’m on my annual semi-vacation this week, and was planning on keeping my postings here fairly light. But the news waits for no one. And by “news” I mean the daily parade of ridiculousness coming from the Men’s “Human Rights” camp. So here’s a quick report on the latest bit of high irony involving A Voice for Men.

Well, I was wrong. I’ve often noted that the Men’s Rights movement in general, and A Voice for Men in particular, doesn’t actually provide any real help for any real men. Sure, as far as I can tell, precisely zero of the hundreds of thousands of dollars A Voice for Men has raised from donors over the years has gone into providing actual services for men — say, funding a hotline for troubled men or some other practical program that doesn’t primarily involve yelling at women online. But never let it be said that none of this money gods to help men.

Because, it turns out, that money has been going to help men. Or at least that subset of men that consists of one Paul Elam of Houston Texas.

After being pressed for details about A Voice for Men’s finances by anonymous commenters on Reddit, a certain Twitterer named @DavidFutrelle and a journalist from MSNBC, Elam has finally fessed up and admitted that all the money donated to his website goes directly to him. But don’t take my word for it. Here’s what Elam had to say in a post from yesterday:

Every dollar donated goes right into my pocket. I spend that money on this website and on activist efforts at my own discretion, considering the opinions of the AVFM management team that volunteers to help run this place. … I depend on the site for my living, and to do as much FTSU as possible while I am at it.

In the past, of course, Elam was a bit more, well, elusive about where the money was going, talking about the costs of paying for web hosting and stock images rather than, say, the costs of paying the mortgage of one Paul Elam. Maybe “elusive” isn’t the correct word. “Deceptive” might be more like it.

You may also recall this pitch he once made for donations (I’ve put the best parts in bold):

I am tired of seeing a comparative handful of men and women cough up the lion’s share of financial assistance when most, even some who come here every day to read and cheer on FTSU, won’t cough up five fucking dollars to help us out; who are just fine as long as none of the burden, even a trivial part of it, is on them. …

[T]he longer I am at this, the less patience I have with dead weight, those who think AVFM is a fucking source of entertainment, or a life preserver for when the tables finally, inevitably turn against them.

In a way, I feel even worse now for most of the men who will make contact with AVfM looking for that lifeline. Unless their story is one that has the potential for me to exploit and gain media attention to THE CAUSE, then all I will have for them is a link to this article.

Well, and perhaps this piece of advice.

If the system has ruined your life, join the club. You are now in the ranks of men you have ignored your whole life. My advice to you is simple. Take your fucking quietly and with grace. Expect the same compassion you have always extended to those men who wore the shoes you are now wearing.

If you want things to change, then stock up on Ramen, get cozy in your studio apartment and join us in the fight to fix this shit. Don’t ask us to help you, but rather give your life the only meaning it may have left, as someone ready and willing to turn your meager existence into helping others who have been similarly screwed over.

In other words, Elam told troubled men turning to his site for help that they should stock up on Ramen noodles — and pay his bills. Oh, and on several occasions he’s boasted about taking donations from people taking the money from their unemployment checks.

As for the other people who put in so much time and energy at his site? As far as I can figure it from Elam’s evasive post yesterday, they earn nothing but a “thanks.”

At the end of each day, even with the incredible levels of help I get from people like Dean Esmay, David King, Al Martin and every one of the incredible people who work at AVFM, I am still target number one. I am a target for feminists posing as concerned MHRAs, yellow hacks like David Futrelle, and a target for many in the media who would love nothing better than to publish my personal financial information after putting their disgusting spin on it.

As you might have gathered from that quote, Elam remains indignant that anyone would even ask where the money goes.

And that goes for the money he recently raised that was supposedly earmarked to pay the security costs of AVFM’s conference. About that, he says only:

we hired four police officials (three officers and one supervisor) for coverage of the entire event and also hired a local attorney, paying his retainer in advance.  We also had to engage our regular attorney, and have not yet been billed for their services.

In effect, we spent the money raised on precisely what we said we would spend it on, and have set aside what little remained for the next conference.

Really? According to costhelper.com, off-duty police officers generally cost $40-60 an hour; this Sheriff’s department puts the costs at $27-$31 an hour for each of its officers, including administrative fees. Even assuming that AVFM paid at the top of this range — $60 an hour — it would have cost them only $7200 to pay for four officers working ten hours each of the three days of the conference.

The amount that AVFM might have paid for legal fees depends on how much their lawyers charge per hour, and how many hours they worked. Assuming each lawyer charged $200 per hour and worked thirty hours over the three days of the conference — which I highly doubt — the cost for their legal assistance would have added up to $12,000. If AVFM actually paid even half that for legal fees I will eat my cats.

Even with these extremely generous assumptions, AVFM would have paid out only a little over $19,000 for security and legal fees. AVFM raised more than $30,000 for “security.”

In the interest of full disclosure, I should note that I also ask readers for donations. But I’ve always made clear that aside from donations specifically earmarked for other things the money goes to me. (And the cats.) And I don’t demand that donors pay me $20,000 per quarter — $80,000 a year — on top of whatever donations come in between the quarterly fundraisers, not to mention special “security” fundraisers.

I’m very grateful to those who donate to me — and indeed to everyone who’s contributed time and effort and knowledge and artistic skills to help the site — but I take in only a fraction of what Elam evidently takes in. And I don’t ask for money from those who are themselves broke.

In the comments on AVFM, the regulars are of course rallying around Elam. Then again, I can’t imagine anyone critical of what he does with the money would remain unbanned there for long.

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daintydougal
daintydougal
6 years ago

Seconding médecins sans frontières. They’re about to/have launched a scathing report on how bloated and frankly useless many other ‘charities’ are becoming. Interesting/depressing reading.

Auntie Alias
Auntie Alias
6 years ago

@Kootiepatra

Excellent! Thank you so much. 🙂

fauxmy
fauxmy
6 years ago

thirding ‘doctors without borders’ because of their rating on charity navigator and the enormous amount of services they provide (beyond medicine) and their global ability to deliver.

maistrechat
6 years ago

Charity recommendation: Children International
it’s 3/4 on charity navigator but has a perfect accountability score (I think it’s dinged because the head makes too much, but even then over 80% of expenditures are on programs). They provide medical care/education/etc. to children in developing countries.

Doug Spoonwood
Doug Spoonwood
6 years ago

@weirwoodtreehugger

Complaining about self defense classes for women is activism now? What’s next? Getting a bar to stop ladies night?

Well, as I recall Roy Den Hollander did try and file such a case. And yes, sending a letter like that IS activism, and so is filing a lawsuit.

@kittesherf MOD

Yet amazingly, non-trolls manage to ask how it’s done, rather than whine about it.

You’ve also failed basic idiom: “going mental” is slang and it is indeed ableist.

You’ve missed that the term as used has more than one referent.

@brooked

Plus Dr Tara Palmatier, aka A Shrink for Men, is an effing nightmare. Here’s her word vomit defense of Elam’s shit fit over the questions about AVfM’s finances. There are a lot of things wrong with this, but I’m just going to point out how intellectually dishonest it is to pretend her political attack on women and Elam’s critics is based on some sort of actual psychological diagnosis.

First you personally attack a particular woman by calling her “an effing nightmare”. They you make statements which imply that you oppose such attacks. Give me a break.

@Argenti Aertheri

“leading expert on paternity fraud”

Yeah? I’ve got a bridge I’ve been trying to sell, you interested?

Paternity fraud exists and is a problem for some men.

@pallygirl

You mean a leading activist. I tried to find some accurate stats on “paternity fraud”.
****important disclaimer**** if a female has been sexually active with a couple of males around the estimated time of conception then she may simply have been mistaken in her identification of the father. There is no malice, whereas the term “paternity fraud” – because it contains the word “fraud” suggests purposeful malice on the part of the female.

Well, the problem involved here is actually larger than paternity fraud. The problem lies in a father having to pay child support for a child which is not biologically his own when he believed that the child was his biologically.

I found a Wikipedia page that provides some stats on population rates: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paternity_fraud and notice how many are small. Although the absolute numbers of fathers affected are large, we’re not talking widescale duping of males by calculating females.

I made no such claim that such “widescale duping” does happen. However, there DO exist such calculating females. For an example, go read the biography of Albert Ellis. And again, the problem there is larger than just paternity fraud, the problem lies in a father having to pay child support for a child which is not biologically his own when he believed that the child was his biologically. Additionally, except in extreme cases, women do know when they’re having *unprotected* sex or sex that has a significant probability of resulting in *pregnancy*.

@Toolbox

I’d really like examples of this violent feminist rhetoric.

It’s not necessary to reference violent feminist rhetoric. Actions speak louder than words…


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iARHCxAMAO0
http://www.warholstars.org/chron/andydies68n33.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erin_Pizzey#Overview
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esther_Vilar

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWgslugtDow

@Pithy Pseudonym

Doug, if you’re still reading, I’ll rephrase my question to make it more direct: I have a finite amount of money that I can donate to charity/”charity”. I’m personally interested in using part of my charity budget for organizations which support male rape & DV victims and/or perform community education on the subject. I’ve poked around and some of the local groups around me serve men and a few have targeted programs for men. Can you provide me with any evidence that donating to AVfM would be a more efficient or effective way to support male-focused projects than an unrestricted donation to these local groups?

If you want to donate to a group that specifically focuses on male rape and DV victims, AVfM is clearly not that group, just as Jezebel or Feministing would not be a site that you would want to donate if you wanted to support a group that specifically focused on female rape and DV victims, because AVfM has a much broader focus, just like Jezebel or Femnisting has a much broader focus. Do you have or have you read Phillip Cook’s book? http://www.amazon.com/Abused-Men-Hidden-Domestic-Violence/dp/0275958620/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1404931255&sr=8-3&keywords=philip+cook+violence If you want a group that focuses more specifically, you *might* (I’m not familiar with these groups) look into male survivor http://www.malesurvivor.org/ or the 1 in 6 people, or maybe… though with much less certainty since they don’t focus specifically on males Stop Abusive and Violent Environments http://www.saveservices.org/ or the group that recently indicated that “rape culture” is not a helpful concept R.A.I.N.N. https://www.rainn.org/

@Auntie Alias

Here’s an example of what passes for violence in the MRA Land. Last night an MRA claimed feminists were violent at a University of Toronto protest – the one with lots of shouting and someone pulling a fire alarm.

Pulling a fire alarm is against the law and is an action which the state can (and should) fine. When done with intent to disrupt someone else speaking it is certainly not an action conducive to open discourse in a free society. The feminists at the University of Toronto Warren Farrell protest also blocked the entrance to the building. That does involve physical obstruction… so even if it is not violence according to your conception of violence, it does involve an attempt to block open discourse in a free society.

@sparky

Doug: And that evidence would be…?

See my last response.

@sebhai

And why would a feminist be interested in paternity fraud?
What good does it bring to them?

Many, many feminists consistently claim they are about equality between the sexes. That men end up having to support children which are not biologically theirs, when they believe children are biologically theirs, comes as an *inequality* between the sexes since women universally know about their maternity (excluding hospital mix ups and cases of delusional men and women). It doesn’t matter how such an inequality arises, it’s still an inequality which can get remedied legally without necessarily unjustly depriving people of resources. So, if feminists were about all forms of inequality between the sexes, then they would have a concern with paternity fraud and more generally when men have to raise children where they falsely believe that the children are theirs.

Bravo on being a stay home dad,but the question is which feminist actually taken a stance against stay at home dad,and which feminist exactly that push a man had to be a provider or a slave fro his family?

For a while now, N. O. W., the largest organization of feminists, has rather consistently opposed shared parenting.. have a look at this search http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0LEVxIAkL1Tfg0ApIdXNyoA;_ylc=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?gprid=Wkezoi8eQbCPNGh4pxh1gA&pvid=QP2x_Dk4LjHB.PsvU4_LQghdNzEuN1O9kAD_5fbI&p=feminists+oppose+shared+parenting&fr2=sb-top&fr=chrf-yff25

Or this article http://www.ifeminists.net/introduction/editorials/2006/0802sacks.html

sparky
sparky
6 years ago

Doug, you do know that someone pulling a fire alarm is not evidence that Paul Elam is using donations to help men and boys,

Your search turned up antimisandry.com and yahoo answers.

Ally S
6 years ago

or the group that recently indicated that “rape culture” is not a helpful concept R.A.I.N.N. https://www.rainn.org/

Funny how even major organizations can support fucked up and completely nonsensical understandings of feminist theory and its concepts. RAINN is shooting itself in the foot for denouncing the concept of rape culture.

Argenti Aertheri
6 years ago

Well that was one hell of a teal dear! If anyone reads it, can you provide the cliff notes?

Fourthing (?) MSF // Doctors Without Borders — were I capable of volunteering for them, I would, but I’m nuts and they have actual experts, not self-taught hobbyists like myself.

Auntie Alias
Auntie Alias
6 years ago

@Doug

Those disruptions weren’t violent if no physical harm was attempted or caused. Exaggerating to demonize one’s opponents is a poor strategy, particularly when AVFM is telling it to the press. That and misogyny are what bite AVFM squarely in the butt time and time again. Instead of learning from it, they become angry and lash out at the press. And this is their version of WINNING!! They’re about as successful as Charlie Sheen was; no one buys it except adoring fans.

brooked
6 years ago

@Dougie

First you personally attack a particular woman by calling her “an effing nightmare”. They you make statements which imply that you oppose such attacks. Give me a break.

Where exactly did I say “oppose such attacks”? Enlighten me.

brooked
6 years ago

I bailed on Doug’s post after I saw that most of his “citations” were from YouTube and Wikapedia, and he has like thirty of them.

Skye
Skye
6 years ago

Protip, calling someone a nightmare because of that person’s beliefs/actions is not the same as attacking someone for being male/female.

CrazyCanuck
CrazyCanuck
6 years ago

I know for a fact quite a few MRA’s don’t like Paul. Unfortunately they have associated with him with links and such. I don’t know MRA and feminist will both go down in a slow death. Paul is getting to the age where he’s getting too old acting so childish. Serious both of the groups need a new hobby such.
I will just watch the cluster f***** battle each other while eating pop corn.

Doug Spoonwood
Doug Spoonwood
6 years ago

@sparky

Doug, you do know that someone pulling a fire alarm is not evidence that Paul Elam is using donations to help men and boys…

I never made any such claim. You’d need to back up to what I was responding to in order to understand what I said.

@Auntie Alias

Those disruptions weren’t violent if no physical harm was attempted or caused.

Apparently you missed the video of the feminists in Argentina, as well as the note about Andy Warhol. I also didn’t link to any instances of FEMEN’s violence. Some of what I referenced did indeed constitute violent behavior. What I referenced that did NOT constitute physically violent behavior DID constitute behavior not conducive to a free and open society that values free speech.

That and misogyny are what bite AVFM squarely in the butt time and time again.

If they’re misogynists, then why has the woman who founded the first domestic violence shelter for women Erin Pizzey consistently supported AVfM?

Why did Senator Anne Cools, who also ran a domestic violence shelter for women speak at AVfM’s conference https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0Op4_5_NOM?

Why was Helen Smith there? Or Karen Straughan?

Why was there a group of specifically female MRAs there who call themselves Honey Badgers?

And if they’re getting so squarely bit in the butt, then why do they still have people donating to their site? How did they manage to plan and then hold such a conference?

@brooked

Where exactly did I say “oppose such attacks”? Enlighten me.

You said

Plus Dr Tara Palmatier, aka A Shrink for Men, is an effing nightmare. Here’s her word vomit defense of Elam’s shit fit over the questions about AVfM’s finances. There are a lot of things wrong with this, but I’m just going to point out how intellectually dishonest it is to pretend her political attack on women and Elam’s critics is based on some sort of actual psychological diagnosis. The raging over VAWA isn’t a good look either, but it’s not surprising because the good doctor said many awful things at the convention. (I think she was the one with the underage Miley selfie.)

Specifically, “there are a lot of things wrong with this, but I’m just going to point how intellectually dishonest it is to pretend her political attack on women…”

So, an implication here comes as that you find political attacks on women wrong. But apparently, you have no problem politically attacking Tara Palmatier or any of the women at AVfM.

And give me a break about about “raging over VAWA” as not a good look when talking about men’s issues. Earlier versions of VAWA did recommend a mandatory arrest policy for states. And several states have STILL NOT removed such mandatory arrest policies http://www.saveservices.org/dvlp/policy-briefings/why-did-vawa-change-from-a-mandatory-to-a-pro-arrest-stance/

Protip, calling someone a nightmare because of that person’s beliefs/actions is not the same as attacking someone for being male/female.

Sure. But, it still doesn’t constitute a personal attack against someone who does have a particular sex.

cloudiah
6 years ago

The fact that some women are misogynistic doesn’t mean misogyny isn’t misogyny. So the fact that the homophobic Senator Cools attended their conference simply means that AVfM was willing to endorse someone who would be willing to throw gay men under the bus, simply because she is also misogynistic enough to fit in well with AVfM.

sadie6
6 years ago

Doug, just because they have women in their group doesn’t mean they’re not misogynists. -_-

sparky
sparky
6 years ago

Doug: I did, and it makes no damn sense. I said to prove that the money being donated to Elam was going to help men and boys, you responded by telling me to read your response about the fire alarm.

Which makes no damn sense.

You do know there are such things as internalized misogyny and female misogynists, right? That just because someone is a woman doesn’t mean that their views are right and unable to be criticized, right?

And you do know that what brooked was calling intellectually dishonest was “pretending her political attack on women and Elam’s critics is based on some sort of actual psychological diagnosis.” That Palmatier was suggesting that disagreeing with Elam constituted a mental illness, and equating a mental illness with wrongness.

And if they’re getting so squarely bit in the butt, then why do they still have people donating to their site?

I don’t know why your fellow MRAs continue to give Elam money. Particularly after he first shamed anyone not donating as failing the cause and told people to live in poverty if need be to donate; then turns around and admits the money all goes into his own pocket. I don’t know why you all keep giving him money.

How did they manage to plan and then hold such a conference?

Well, considering how mismanaged and sparsly attended it was, I wouldn’t be bragging to much about that.

Pithy Pseudonym
Pithy Pseudonym
6 years ago

If you want to donate to a group that specifically focuses on male rape and DV victims, AVfM is clearly not that group… because AVfM has a much broader focus…

Yes; included in AVfM’s focus is lining Paul’s pocketbook. (I hope Paul and his donors realize the tax implications of Paul admitting that there’s no separate AVfM entity.)

Viscaria
Viscaria
6 years ago

How can we make you guys understand: you cannot donate to AVfM. That is not an option that has been given to you. The only thing you can do is send money to a guy named Paul Elam, at which point he decides if he wants to spend it on maintaining a website, it maybe setting up a conference, you know, whatever. It’s not like some of AVfM’s money is going to Elam, like a salary. AVfM doesn’t have money.

thebewilderness
6 years ago

Setting up a conference for only a couple hundred people really is very little trouble, Doug. It is when you get into the tens of thousands that it gets complicated.

Argenti Aertheri
6 years ago

*marks off “zombie Solanas” bingo square*

Guess that means I missed absolutely nothing new by skipping that teal deer!

brooked
6 years ago

@Doug

Specifically, “there are a lot of things wrong with this, but I’m just going to point how intellectually dishonest it is to pretend her political attack on women…”

So, an implication here comes as that you find political attacks on women wrong. But apparently, you have no problem politically attacking Tara Palmatier or any of the women at AVfM.

Wow, that was not even sort of what I was saying. Dr Tara is set up as AVfM’s pop psychologist expert, with a focus on relationships and divorce. So when she throws out her unfounded “all of Paul’s critics are as crazy and vindictive as ex-wives during a divorce” statement, she diagnosing AVfM’s critics as irrational, if not mentally ill, victimizers. A mental health professional’s opinion of other people’s mental state carries more weight, which is why when doctors offer their opinion about a public figure’s mental health, for example as several did during the aftermath of the Eliot Roger’s murders, they always mention that they did not personally treat that public figure.

Dr Tara is effing nightmare IMHO because she’s feeds the MRAs cartoonish vilification of woman by portraying them as bi-polar vindictive monsters. I also disagree with her about VAWA and do not believe helping female victims of DV precludes helping male victims. I do think encouraging men to seek couple counseling or treatment is a good thing. I also think a lot of popular pop psychologists run into trouble when they diagnose people after a phone call, a short letter or a news article, so my criticisms of Dr. Tara don’t stem just from her association with AVfM.

kittehserf MOD
kittehserf MOD
6 years ago

@rjjspesh

Blockquote high five! 🙂

brooked
6 years ago

If Elam and his henchpeople didn’t harass, defame and doxx women and other critics, I wouldn’t give a shit about them because they’re small potatoes. He’s borderline incompetent, so I think chances are good that he’s going to continue to have problems with the IRS, but he’s always been sort of upfront about AVfM not being a charity or anything other that his sandbox. If AVfM fanboys are going to buy his bullshit faux-activism and non-functional advocacy as a point of pride, that’s their (poor) decision.

There are full-on hoax charities that pull in a lot more than 100k annually. Also, while it’s depressing to think of poor people sending Elam more money than they can afford, I haven’t heard any claims that he fleeces individual followers of tens of thousands of dollars. Cult leaders, whether they’re psychological, religious and self-help based ones, can be very, very good at demanding followers hand over more and more money in a short period of time. I had a family member lose almost a million dollars to a religious cult in the 1980s, so Elam’s little fund raisers don’t really bother me, unless a lot more chicanery is going on than we know about.

brooked
6 years ago

If Elam and his henchpeople didn’t harass, defame and doxx women and other critics, I wouldn’t give a shit about them because they’re small potatoes.

Just to clarify, I’d still disagree with the guy and see need to call out his bullshit, I just don’t believe in portraying Elam as a mighty anti-feminist warrior.

Auntie Alias
Auntie Alias
6 years ago

@Doug

Apparently you missed the video of the feminists in Argentina, as well as the note about Andy Warhol. I also didn’t link to any instances of FEMEN’s violence. Some of what I referenced did indeed constitute violent behavior. What I referenced that did NOT constitute physically violent behavior DID constitute behavior not conducive to a free and open society that values free speech.

In my original comment I gave an example of what MRAs consider violence in response to another person’s question. You jumped in and tried to explain it away. Now you’re shifting goalposts to include other examples.

And if they’re getting so squarely bit in the butt, then why do they still have people donating to their site? How did they manage to plan and then hold such a conference?

I was referring to the media’s reaction to them. They keep spewing hate and then wonder why the media reports it. Duh.

Others have already covered my thoughts on the participation of women in AFVM.

pallygirl
pallygirl
6 years ago

I cannot be bothered to respond to much of Doug’s spiel, because here’s an example of how dishonest he is in trying to argue (colour me surprised):

Well, the problem involved here is actually larger than paternity fraud. The problem lies in a father having to pay child support for a child which is not biologically his own when he believed that the child was his biologically.

This doesn’t make sense. Doug, you need to go back to primary school and learn Venn diagrams. Fathers paying child support for a child that is biologically not theirs (but they thought was) is a subset of all mistaken cases of paternity. So the problem, by mathematical definition, cannot be “larger than paternity fraud”. This is really simple mathematics.

You also need to learn the definition of fraud, which has an intent component and I have already explained that in many cases, there is no intent to commit fraud but an honest and reasonable misunderstanding of who the father is. There’s also the issue of defining “father” as many of us here take issue with the idea that “father”=”sperm donor”. You’re spitting on adoptive parents, fathers of children conceived with sperm donation, etc with that notion.

In many cases, the fact that the female gets pregnant is because of poor knowledge about pregnancy and contraception options, see http://www.guttmacher.org/media/nr/2012/05/09/

So long as many females don’t understand the basics about how pregnancy happens, and which contraceptive measures work well vs. the ones that are bandied about but are complete crap, then accidental pregnancy and honest errors about the identity of the father are going to occur.

I’ve already pointed out how your original “statistic” was fundamentally flawed and an excessive overestimate. Fuck off with your “concerns” about paternity fraud.

You bring nothing new to the table and won’t admit your errors in interpretation. You are not interested in the facts, but only in soundbites to attack women. You are a true MRA, how impressive.

kittehserf MOD
kittehserf MOD
6 years ago

Small thing, pallygirl – please don’t talk about women and girls as females. Everything else, spot on!

pallygirl
pallygirl
6 years ago

Gah, was using it to try to be inclusive. Damn. Sorry.

kittehserf MOD
kittehserf MOD
6 years ago

Not to worry! 🙂

Luzbelitx
6 years ago

@Doug

As everyone else already happened to mention, you’re so full of shit it would take a team of archaeologists to dig you out of it.

As for your video of “violent Argentine feminists”, it happened in 2012 in the city of Posadas, province of Misiones, during a national meeting of women which lasted a whole weekend and over 20.000 women assisted, only a few of which happen to appear on your video.

The rest were all at conferences, workshops, debates, and minding their own business.

Oh, did we mention that the organizers spoke against those acts, perpetrated by an obvious minority? http://www.noticiasdel6.com/ampliar_.php?id=102783

Also, the catholics standing there? The city’s priest in charge had asked his shepherd to stay the fuck away from the cathedral at the time appointed for the women’s march to avoid a clash of ideologies: http://lavozdemisiones.com.ar/el-encuentro-nacional-de-mujeres-se-apodero-de-las-calles-de-posadas/

This means: everyone knew the women would be there marching through the streets and not giving a fuck about the catholic’s precious cathedral. But a set of catholics stood in front of it to let the women know they can’t walk without having catholics fingers pointed at them.

Not to mention the propaganda campaign launched by conservative media against the women’s meeting, trying to fuel fear and anger in the city’s population.

So fuck, you, asshole, get you facts straight. And come visit Argentina some time, we’ll gladly give you a taste of “feminist violence”.

“The wise speak only of what they know” -Gandalf the Grey.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

Spoonwood? Really?

kittehserf MOD
kittehserf MOD
6 years ago

It’s what happens to Ironwood after Uri Geller’s aimed a few thoughtwaves at it.

emilygoddess - MOD
emilygoddess - MOD
6 years ago

First you personally attack a particular woman by calling her “an effing nightmare”. They you make statements which imply that you oppose such attacks. Give me a break.

Attacking an individual woman =/= attacking women as a category. If you can’t grasp this simple concept, you’re not really up to the level of discourse here (and yes, I’m including the insults and cat videos).

Well, the problem involved here is actually larger than paternity fraud. The problem lies in a father having to pay child support for a child which is not biologically his own when he believed that the child was his biologically.

“The problem isn’t paternity fraud, it’s [definition of paternity fraud]”. Go home Doug, you’re drunk.

Pulling a fire alarm is against the law and is an action which the state can (and should) fine. When done with intent to disrupt someone else speaking it is certainly not an action conducive to open discourse in a free society. The feminists at the University of Toronto Warren Farrell protest also blocked the entrance to the building. That does involve physical obstruction… so even if it is not violence according to your conception of violence, it does involve an attempt to block open discourse in a free society.

Way to shift the goalposts there, champ.

And dude, a Yahoo search string is not a citation.

So, there’s this joke about how arguing with a Republican is like playing chess with a pigeon: it can’t possibly understand the game, but it’ll strut around the board, knocking over pieces and shitting everywhere, and think it’s won. That’s how I feel trying to argue with Doug.

emilygoddess - MOD
emilygoddess - MOD
6 years ago

as well as the note about Andy Warhol

If Argenti can collect unicorns, I’m gonna collect Zombie Solanases. I’ll need to expand the house soon, though…

If they’re misogynists, then why has the woman who founded the first domestic violence shelter for women Erin Pizzey consistently supported AVfM?

See? Pigeon playing chess. Come back when you’ve finished feminism 101*, or at least read enough of this blog to know that your lame gotchas have been tried and addressed a million times before.

*Figure of speech. Please don’t actually come back.

weirwoodtreehugger
6 years ago

Complaining about self defense classes for women is activism now? What’s next? Getting a bar to stop ladies night?

Well, as I recall Roy Den Hollander did try and file such a case. And yes, sending a letter like that IS activism, and so is filing a lawsuit.

Hahahaha! I knew Doug wouldn’t realize I was mocking him.

Yes Doug, I am very aware that ladies night is something you pathetic fuckwits think is oppression. That you think it is telling. It means you haven’t experienced any actual oppression.

It is very well known that ladies night is a marketing ploy meant to attract men because when women are guzzling free booze all night they have a harder time saying no. You would think the rape apologists in the mrm would love ladies night!

Also, having women in your sad little group doesn’t insulate you from claims of misogyny. It’s no different than the people who say they can’t be racist because they have a black friend. Besides, there are men who are feminists so if the presence of women the mrm means you can’t be misogynists you must stop saying feminists are misandrists.

weirwoodtreehugger
6 years ago

I’m glad I missed the rest of Doug yesterday. I can only tolerate one teal deer troll per day.

pecunium
6 years ago

From running the obvious numbers, the conference should have generated about 60,000USD gross (from the ticket sales and the security fundraiser).

Barbara Kay says the cost of security was about 10,000USD. I’d guess that includes the legal fees (and it need to be pointed out, retainers aren’t fees: they are money held in escrow against the cost of the legal service. If an attorney asks for a $10,000 retainer, and only has 3,500 in billable hours/expenses, then you get $6,500 back).

Given what the con I just helped run cost about $3,500* in New Jersey), for a Fri-Sun convention; with three large function rooms, and several smaller ones, as well as drink service (the hotel is attached to a conference center), with only 60 room nights…. Elam is either an incompetent negotiator, or had almost no cost for facilities at the Hilton; since their lawyer said they had 150 rooms booked. Rooms, not room nights. I have to assume some of those rooms were only booked for Friday, but if they had 150 rooms booked, that means at least 200 room nights. The could have had a lot more than one room with that sort of booking.

Of course that would pre-suppose they know how to run multi-track programming. I’m not talking Arisia/Worldcon levels of multi-track programming, but more on the order of a Coppercon, or Lunacon (though both of those are larger in attendance than Man-Con was).

/digression.

The VFW probably didn’t ask more than $1,500 for the event (I’m guessing, $500 a day, times three days: maybe it was 750).

The Yiddish Book Center, where we had our wedding (which was about the size of Man-Con) asked for $3,500: but we got a ballroom, a theater, a “sleeping room”, a stage, a patio, a sound mix, lighting; and our guests were given run of the place. We did have to pay for the staff: which was four people (and one of them went above and beyond, running a guest to the hospital when he slipped [his own fault] so that none of us knew he’d been taken away [he fell trying to get people to sit down for the ceremony]).

I can’t see how Man-Con (even if Elam, et al. are totes incomepetent) cost more than that for faclities.

So we add in WTF’s speaking fee (I’m not going to put it past Elam to have gotten WTF to come for free, what with this all being done out of Elam’s Pocket… and we know how skint Elam is, what with the costs of hosting AVfM). and I see a cost to run it of… call it $6,000, for 24,000 net: from gate receipts. Add in the 20,000 extra from the “security” caper, and we have about $40,000 going to Elam from this: while he harangues his followers for more money because, “the extra expense of the ICMI”.

Sweet racket that.

*that includes the cost of comping a room to the GoH, and flying said GoH to the con

pecunium
6 years ago

Also, two prominent writers on AVfM Diana Davison and John Hembling actually do currently run a hotline for men:

And AVfM pays for that? We don’t know. Elam tells us, flat out, he won’t let anyone know.*

That is not the behaviour of an honest man.

*Actually, by his words, Elam says thats not the case:

Every dollar donated goes right into my pocket. I spend that money on this website and on activist efforts at my own discretion, considering the opinions of the AVFM management team that volunteers to help run this place. … I depend on the site for my living, and to do as much FTSU as possible while I am at it.

pecunium
6 years ago

Doug:

I’m pretty sure you’ve excluded the case of him using money that he has pocketed in ways later on to help men. My position here is not that he’s doing as much as he should, but it doesn’t really come as defensible to say that Paul Elam has done absolutely nothing for no one besides himself.

Yes it is defensible, because Elam won’t open any of the AVfM books.

See, if he were honest, than AVfM would be a separate entity, at which point Elam, qua Elam, has no worries about the books. AVfM pays him a salary, and AVfM does things with the money.

As it is now, AVfM doesn’t really exist. Paul Elam, pseudo-philanthropic “activist” does, using the idea of AVfM as a grifting tool to separate angry idealists from their money, in his behalf.

Q: “I’m truly curious about how much time and money Doug thinks it takes to post an article you didn’t write on your webpage.”

A: I don’t think about such things. I don’t have any idea.

Q:“And dare I ask how much Paul/AVFM paid Diana Davison and John Hembling to run that hotline?””

A: Sure you can ask. That doesn’t mean you’ll get an answer for the simple reason that I don’t know.

Then why do you pretend it has any validity as a claim of what he does with the money? Why, when asked what he was doing with the money, did you lie and say that it was obvious he was spending some of it on things like that?

It’s not obvious. It’s so not obvious you admit you don’t know what was spent. You choose to assume those cost money; which is understandable, no one likes to think they’ve been gulled.

But we, who are not accolytic fanboys have no reason to trust him. His own words, in fact, give us every reason to doubt him. Your disingenuous defense does nothing to diffuse that doubt.

Argenti Aertheri
6 years ago

Shit — I hope that wedding guest is okay! And idk if ayou went wandering the grounds outside, but the outdoor space was impressive (though I doubt the frog and chipmunk I startled where as thrilled by my presence as I was by theirs).

As for Elam, yep. I’ve gone to conferences offering real continuing education credits with dozens of workshops in each time slot, taking over an entire university building+, for well under $100. And that’s you pay your hotel, so no room nights to negotiate with either. Elam is impressively incompetent.

Emilygoddess — I think we can put a dorm next to the stables and your Solanases can help care for the unicorns. That sound like a plan? They can’t bite the unicorns though, just like David can’t eat the pony.

pecunium
6 years ago

Argenti: All he missed was the ceremony proper. I teased him about it (“if you didn’t want to attend the ceremony you could have slept in”).

pecunium
6 years ago

Oh Doug, so young, and wordy, to be so mistaken; and gullible:

as well as the note about Andy Warhol.

Who wasn’t shot for being a man, but in a diuspute about art.

As to the issue of “paternity fraud”. I’m about as likely to be the victim of intentional paternity fraud as I am to be struck by lightning.

Go ahead, prove me wrong. We’ve done this dance before, so beware. Any proofs offered will have to be rigorous, and apply to more than just cases already in dispute.

Well, the problem involved here is actually larger than paternity fraud. The problem lies in a father having to pay child support for a child which is not biologically his own when he believed that the child was his biologically.

So the two problems are independent. How would you correct the latter? The only way I can see is to presume all women are lying all the time. Way so show it’s not about “all women” but only about the small number who are mendacious.

Or not.

What I referenced that did NOT constitute physically violent behavior DID constitute behavior not conducive to a free and open society that values free speech.

About which AVfM is so concerned. That’s why they ran “register her”. It’s why they kept the Thomas Ball Manifesto up as a link to “activism” for so long. The big difference between the examples (ill-thought, incorrect, and lacking in context though they are) is they are taken from a huge group of people, not all of whom are going to be saints.

That’s why they put out a reward for names, phone numbers, addresses, daily routines of women they don’t like. Nope, nothing in that could possibly be stifling of “a free and open society that values free speech

AVfM is run by one person, who vetts all that gets published. So when a call to violence (e.g. Thomas Ball saying judges and cops need to be killed) is published there, for more than a year, Elam is responsible: directly.

You can’t hand wave that away with, “some women yelled at us, and tried to block bigots from promoting bigotry”, as if the two were equal; because they aren’t.

pecunium
6 years ago

As an aside, the next time someone goes all, “ANITA SARKEESIAN!!!!!!” you might want to ask them about Tropes Against Men in Videogames

Argenti Aertheri
6 years ago

Aw, but the ceremony was sweet (and dare I say you actually looked nervous?). At least he’s fine though!

Hope you’re enjoying the troll, since I’m not gonna deal with the sort of “statistics” this they drags out. Idk why you want another go on this merry go round, but have fun!

pecunium
6 years ago

Argenti: I was nervous. That format is sort of like being an att’y, and asking a question one knows not the answer to. There was even something said I’d rather hadn’t (all things being equal). 20 years from now, or when the kids want to see the wedding I’ll probably be fine with it…

As to the troll… he’s not gonna find good stats, so it’s not like I’m gonna have to work to hard to point out the failures of methodology/interpretation; without having to break down the stats.

As to why, same reason as always: Someone else won’t have seen this nonsense before, and will take silence as concession.

Argenti Aertheri
6 years ago

Well, I thought all your vows were lovely! More importantly, kids? ō.Ó? Should I start collecting baby stuff?

As for stats, you know me, someone is wrong on the internet, DUTY CALLS!!

katz
6 years ago

20 years from now, or when the kids want to see the wedding I’ll probably be fine with it…

*squeal* Are there going to be Pecuniettes?

LBT
LBT
6 years ago

Well, color me shocked that Elam is pocketing everything. Ugh, how gross. I’m totally skipping Doug’s blathering.

The Chartreuse Vegan Capsule
The Chartreuse Vegan Capsule
6 years ago

“I depend on the site for my living”

Then he sure as hell better not be living high off the hog!!! And going by the looks of it – his considerable girth as well as the bit of his very nice living space we see in his videos attests to – he is!

I’d expect him to be living in Section 8 housing and using EBT for food. At the very most AVFM donations could be used to once yearly by some clothes at the thrift store.

Instead he’s using peoples’ donations to splurge on food, new clothing and home accessories like the aroma sticks a wooden book shelves (and books!) we see in his well furnished home.

Does he pay taxes on his AVFM donations? The IRS needs to look into this.

” and to do as much FTSU as possible while I am at it.”

What is FTSU?

Fit To Scam U?