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a voice for men a woman is always to blame antifeminism bad boys beta males crackpottery evil single moms grandiosity mansplaining men who should not ever be with women ever misogyny MRA Stefan Molyneux

MRA "philosopher" Stefan Molyneux: "If you don't have a husband … to keep the child is abusive."

Misogyny Theater takes another look at the charming philosopher-king-asshole Stefan Molyneux, who seems to be carving out quite a spot for himself in the world of the lady-haters.

In this episode, some audio excerpts from Stefan Molyneux’s frighteningly well-received talk ostensibly on circumcision at A Voice for Men’s June 2014 conference, as presented in his video “Shocking Misogynist Attacks Feminism, Defends Rape Culture.” Despite the ironic title, this is pretty much an accurate description of his talk, even a bit of an understatement.

The title of my video is a shortened version of something he says in his talk (and in my video). The full quote: “If you don’t have a husband, if you chose the wrong guy, to keep the child is abusive, almost always.”

That’s right: according to Stefan M., being a single mother is, in itself, abusive.

The audio excerpts are drawn from an hour-long talk, so naturally I did some editing. In the interests of transparency, I marked each edit with a little snipping sound.

If you just can’t get enough of this guy, see my previous Molyneux video for more exciting women-blaming.

Scissors sounds and weird background noises courtesy of FreeSFX.

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Diana Adams
Diana Adams
6 years ago

Single parenthood and alternative family structures have been increasing during the last decades. Yet violence and crime of all kinds have fallen dramatically (in some places by up to 70%) and continue to plummet throughout the entire western world. How do these people fit in those facts into their narratives?

Fnoicby
Fnoicby
6 years ago

Diana, shhh…facts are misandry!

grumpycatisagirl
6 years ago

This has what to do with circumcision? Did he even talk about the subject of his talk?

autosoma
6 years ago

As this is the Centenary of the start of the first world war, I wonder how Molyneux, reconcile the large increase in single mothers in the UK as an aftermath of the war. Were they abusive as they nurtured the greatest generation. I guess history doesn’t and its only the here and now, oh wasn’t it a patriarchal societal structure that created now…

opium4themasses
opium4themasses
6 years ago

@Diana Adams They would say the modern society has “pussified” or “feminized” modern men. They would do this without realizing it was undercutting this argument which they would also agree with.

The facts are convenient tools to be used or forgotten, as is convenient, to blame women for pretty much everything.

Also, I was eating chips while watching the video and the snips confused me. I wasn’t sure if it was the sounds of the chips or the video for the first couple of times.

weirwoodtreehugger
6 years ago

Diana Adams,

Facts are misandry!

weirwoodtreehugger
6 years ago

Ninja’d by Fnoicby.

I guess we should coordinate our gynocracy talking points better. If we shout them all at once the MRM might realize it’s all a conspiracy.

pecunium
6 years ago

It’s all one begged question. He doesn’t prove his premise (violence is caused in early childhood), but all of his argument depends on it being true.

Intellectually dishonest.

Fnoicby
Fnoicby
6 years ago

pecunium, not to mention the fact that he’s assuming that a mother/other females are the ONLY influence in early childhood, if they are primary caregivers.

mildlymagnificent
6 years ago

Lawks! I couldn’t listen to all of it.

He mentioned women choosing to have children with a man who’s not going to be around.

So does that mean that women shouldn’t marry/ have children with anyone in a fly-in-fly-out occupation or merchant sailors or in the armed forces or troubleshooters/consultants in dozens of industries? Because most people in those occupations see less of their children than a separated or divorced father who sees the kids on weekends would do. One of my best friends didn’t see her husband for several months at a time when he was working in some locations in Papua New Guinea, even some of the more inaccessible sites in Australia.

One of our friends has been working in a university in Saudi Arabia. Apart from the fact that they didn’t want to upset the older child’s year 12 studies, his wife refused to live anywhere she couldn’t drive or have a job herself. He’s away for a semester at a time. They continue to live here and he comes home for holidays a couple of times a year.

Ally S
6 years ago

[CN: abuse]

Yeah, my mom has traumatized me so much for having more influence in my life than my dad. She spent my early years doing everything she could to comfort me whenever my dad was yelling at me and threatening to harm me. She even had the audacity to get a restraining order in order to protect me and my siblings when he threatened to murder all of us. And then she did the unthinkable: get a divorce. Such an abusive mother. /extremely bitter sarcasm

Lady Rainicorn
Lady Rainicorn
6 years ago

This is particularly frustrating to me as I’m currently working on my dissertation in Psychoanalysis. The whole thing falls apart if you cut out the presumption that all predisposition to evil begins in the first 2 years of life, right?

Well it’s wrong. It’s so fucking wrong. Not a single credible theory in any psychological field posits anything like this. When not even psychoanalysts – who, famously, are obsessed with early childhood – would look at your theory of ego development and be like “Dude, woah… Where the hell did you get that?” you need to seriously reconsider your position as a (science-informed) “philosopher.”

Fuck.

Diana Adams
Diana Adams
6 years ago

Facts are misandry, yeah. The facts however don’t support any of their theories. There is a staggering decline of crime and violence which even the experts cannot fully explain. But Stefan Molyneux who is an expert of nothing seems to know everything about violence and crime. And of course women are to blame. Especially single mothers.

Save The Queen
Save The Queen
6 years ago

His theory is basically a variation of Freud and his followers, who suggest early childhood is the be-all and end-all for personality development. Freud’s theories have been hammered for decades for having little legitimacy. It has little empirical basis at all (and I don’t say “none” because I’m sure there’s a study out there somewhere that suggests there’s at least teeny, tiny sliver of evidence). Hundreds of peer-influence studies have illustrated that friends have huge impacts on behavior, which can change in relatively short periods of time.. Them there’s discussions of temperament, brain chemistry, hormones, disease….

It’s almost like explanations for behavior are really complex! If an explanation sounds really simple when it comes to behavior, it’s wrong.

Why these fools paid $200-300 dollars to hear speakers wax on pseudoscience (Freud, evo psyc) is beyond me. They may as well bring back phrenology to critique women’s behavior at this point. I look forward to a lecture on the topic billed as “new science” next year.

ladyrainicorn517
ladyrainicorn517
6 years ago

That was phrased poorly. Sigh. Anger diminishes my typing ability. Point is, even psychoanalysts would think he’s full of shit.

ladyrainicorn517
ladyrainicorn517
6 years ago

@Save the Queen

Lol, bad timing. Psychoanalysis is, first of all, not a pseudoscience because it doesn’t make claims to scientific authority; in many ways it’s an anti-positivist philosophy. Secondly, no, psychoanalysts today would not agree with him. Even Freud wouldn’t. His ideas about early childhood laid the foundation for our current understanding that child abuse = bad (revolutionary for his time), much more than they did for these prescriptive dickheads.

Save The Queen
Save The Queen
6 years ago

Semi-ninjaed by Lady Rainicorn.

I only have a psyc minor so I obviously don’t have the background you do., Working on my dissertation in Colonial/Post-Colonial history. I cringe when anthropologists interpret culture through theoretical constructs inspired by Freud.

Ally S
6 years ago

Also, a massive FUCK YOU to Stefan for implicitly telling mothers in abusive relationships that they themselves are abusive for wanting to keep their kid(s) safe from their abusive fathers. Taking the children away in order to protect them and help them heal from abuse is the exact opposite of abuse.

a b u s e r ‘ s l o b b y

ladyrainicorn517
ladyrainicorn517
6 years ago

@Save the Queen

Dissertation high five! I was always intrigued by post-colonial history, as the anthropology professors at my college really drove home the problems inherent to the subject, re: persistent ethnocentrism.

And yeah, in many ways Freud disappoints me. Though I think he’s held up to an unreasonable standard today, given that his views were closer to ours than his contemporaries (social context is important). But Freud is not the be-all and end-all of psychoanalysis, and no psychoanalytic theorists that I know of are as fervently attached to sexist, racist, and otherwise reductive social theories as MRAs.

sparky
sparky
6 years ago

Well, he refers to himself as a space alien in the beginning there. That would explain a lot of things.

So, his premise is women are “in charge of early childhood” because women tend to do most of the childcare and are the majority of elementary school teachers. And Molyneux believes that this is harming children. So, wouldn’t the solution to that be to encourage men to be involved fathers, to take a greater role in childcare and nurturing, to encourage men to always use condoms when they don’t want to make a baby, and to encourage more men to take jobs as early childhood educators and in daycare centers?

Oh yeah. I forgot the whole point is to just blame women for all the bad things while completely removing agency and responsibility from men.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

She got together with a man who was going to run off, huh? Because of course he said “by the way, just so you know, I plan to abandon you as soon as you get pregnant” on the first date

zoon echon logon
zoon echon logon
6 years ago

Women are responsible for the actions of men. If the father leaves/is unreliable, it’s the woman’s fault for “choosing the wrong guy.”

Men have no choice or agency in deciding on a partner/whether to have kids–it’s all up to the woman.

I’m always amazed by how low MRAs’ opinion of men is.

sagamanus
sagamanus
6 years ago

This man always has an underlying look as if he’s about to lose it. Red-cheeked and jovial as he provides a support structure to the universe of his own mind.

zoon echon logon
zoon echon logon
6 years ago

@ladyrainicorn517

Psychoanalysis is, first of all, not a pseudoscience because it doesn’t make claims to scientific authority; in many ways it’s an anti-positivist philosophy.

Could you elaborate on this? Not my area. Is there not an attempt to make statements about empirical questions (the ego develops like this…)? How does one justify such statements?

Flying Mouse
Flying Mouse
6 years ago

So does that mean that women shouldn’t marry/ have children with anyone in a fly-in-fly-out occupation or merchant sailors or in the armed forces or troubleshooters/consultants in dozens of industries? Because most people in those occupations see less of their children than a separated or divorced father who sees the kids on weekends would do.

Oooh, good point mildlymagnificent. My husband does contract work, and he’s usually out of the country somewhere between three and six months every year. I probably am a terrible mother by ol’ Stefan’s calculus, since I chose this awful man who leaves us to earn a living and then gloms up as much family time as he can when he’s home.

I learn so much from Mr. Molyneux’s appearances on Misogyny Theater. Last time I found out that my husband was an ipso-facto asshole and it was all his mom’s fault for having married and divorced a neglectful jerk. Now I’ve discovered that husband and I are both unfit parents! Such profound wisdom.

Scarlettathena
Scarlettathena
6 years ago

People, people, it all makes sense when you remember that everything bad is women’s fault. It’s all so simple. /snark/

ladyrainicorn517
ladyrainicorn517
6 years ago

Hi @zoon echon logon 🙂

I want to say first that psychoanalytic writings can be VERY alienating if you’re unfamiliar with the subject, and it can certainly seem as if theorists are making empirical statements without the requisite research to back them up. But most of the time, they’re thought experiments phrased without the “if.” So to take your example, when Freud (or Klein, or Winnicott) says “the ego develops…” what they’re really saying is “IF we accept that the ego develops in x fashion, THEN x…”

The best way I can think to describe it is that they approach the mind as literary theorists do works of fiction. But it’s not entirely theoretical. To be a psychoanalyst (and to continue to research) you need thousands of clinical hours, and to be analyzed yourself. As one of my professors put it, “In order to be as objective as possible, you need to deal with all your own bullshit first.” So evidence generally comes in the form of an extensive, pre-existing theoretical framework + clinical experience + personal analysis. It’s subjective, certainly, but it’s not baseless speculation.

That said, there have been more and more courses popping up that combine neuroscience and psychoanalysis, which I have mixed feelings about. Some preliminary findings have found neurobiological evidence for defense mechanisms like suppression and dissociation, so perhaps the field has a future. Oliver Sacks (a neurologist) has written perhaps the most accessible books about neuo-psychoanalysis, and the general topic of more subjective mental healthcare.

I hope that answers your question.

loganbacon
loganbacon
6 years ago

Wonder where he gets his “95 percent of primary school teachers are women” statistic. It’s been a while since I went to elementary school, but 3 out of seven of my teachers in elementary school were men.

pecunium
6 years ago

And Kay gives us an idea of how much money Elam clear in the Cop-Con:

There are a lot of other things he lies about*.

1: Only well to do women “went on vacation” and came back without the child.
2: The idea that such children were adopted out to 2-parent households which loved them. Most of those we put into orphanages and foster homes.
3: Buried in that is the idea the father who, “isn’t there” has any responsibility.

Molyneux, conveniently, mandates that all children need to be in two-parent households. If the father leaves§ the woman needs to put the child up for adoption. If she doesn’t do that she’s abusing the child; making the world shittier for everyone because she wasn’t adult enough to put the child up for adoption.

So lets look at the odds†: Of all the “ever married women” in the US (aged 18-44), 35.8 percent looked into adopting (I am using the Ever Married table, not the “all women” table, because Molyneux requires 2-parent households to support his thesis). The number who took steps to adopt was about 14 percent. (the ever married data includes women who are not presently married; I engaged in some rounding to estimate the exact number: the specific data are in Table 6) but only a quarter of those ever adopted a child (if I am reading the table correctly).

Of the married couples seeking to adopt, 2/3rds have included selection criteria in the search (Table 8)

So about 5 percent of couples have ever attempted to adopt. The Census says the US has about 60 million married couples in the US. If we ignore age, and say all married couples are viable candidates for adopting children, we see that about 3 million adoption attempts are likely, across a period of 26 years; the total marriages number, and the 18-44 age rage of “ever marrieds” who were looking for adoptees, which may massage the two tables into a somewhat reasonable compromise)

So how many unmarried women had children in 2012? 1,609,619.

If we assume (for the sake of argument) half of those are to stable 2-parent cohabiting people (And some of them will be to non-straight women, who aren’t allowed to be married), that’s 15 percent, more or less of the total demand over 26 years. So in six years, more or less, his “ideal” fails (sooner, if in fact the people looking to adopt aren’t interested in the children they are offered; see above re 60 pecent having selection criteria). Which means there will have to be orphanages; which will be staffed by, if I had to guess, mostly women.

Which means his base premise, will still fail; even if his ideas are put into action.

*yes, I am going to say lies, either he’s lying about the data, or he’s lying about his expertise.

§ which is because, of course the woman, “chose” a bad man. I can only assume that if she leaves, it’s because she’s a “bad” woman. As usual men aren’t actively agents in the social constructs the MRM creates to explain the ills of the world.

Jones J. Adoption experiences of women and men and demand for children to adopt by women18–44 ears of age in the United States, 2002. National Center for Health Statistics. Vital Health Stat 23(27). 2008 (.pdf)

pecunium
6 years ago

Oops, failed to clear that notepad completely. Ignore the line about Kay; was related to another comment.

takshak
takshak
6 years ago

I believe there are studies which show some correlation between early childhood abuse and certain mental illnesses and learning issues later. Not that it was 100%, or that it had anything to do with anything but active abuse.

I know of one family where, of 6 siblings that were terribly abused, only one was not institutionalized later (either prison or mental hospital), and he was the youngest.. and is bipolar. The abuse there included starvation, and early childhood nutrition is also a factor in some issues, so it’s all a bit of a tangle.

“Nature vs Nurture, best 2 falls out of three” – Prisoners of Gravity

Save The Queen
Save The Queen
6 years ago

@Flying Mouse

I’m experiencing an identity crisis as a man because of Misogyny Theater. I can’t figure out if I’m violent, useless asshole, as per Molyneaux’s assertion that the majority of women choose to breed with violent, useless assholes, or if I’m a beta sap that my significant other “settled” for, as postulated by the exalted Red Pill philosopher, Sandman.

I can’t comprehend how Misogynist Rights Activists actually believe their philosophies do anything to build positive images of men, if you buy into the premise that societal representations of men are negative to begin with.

pecunium
6 years ago

Psychoanalysis is, first of all, not a pseudoscience because it doesn’t make claims to scientific authority; in many ways it’s an anti-positivist philosophy.

Could you elaborate on this? Not my area. Is there not an attempt to make statements about empirical questions (the ego develops like this…)? How does one justify such statements?

Your question is about psychology, not about psychoanalysis. The latter uses the former. As with any discipline the ways in which the ideas, and tools, of the trade are discussed will be complex. There is a lot of shorthand in how things from the one area (psychology) are imported to the other.

bluecatbabe
bluecatbabe
6 years ago

My mother evidently abused me and my brothers by choosing to have us fathered by a man who died when we were still small.

She should have known that would happen before they married – just as women are supposed to know that a guy is going to leave her – because precognition is all part of being a woman.

What she should have done, presumably, is put us into care or up for adoption the second he was cold.

ladyrainicorn517
ladyrainicorn517
6 years ago

@loganbacon

There are two categories of MRA “statistics”:

1) 95-99% = Something they believe to be common knowledge; their fans won’t call them out because “95-99%” is colloquially interchangeable with “pretty much all,” and also they just go with whatever gender divides are represented on the TV.

Examples:
“99% of nurses are women.”
“95% of soldiers are men.”

2) 60%/40% = Something that is, in actuality, overwhelmingly represented by only one gender, but they’d like to imply that those genders are reversed and still maintain (in their own minds) some credibility.

Examples:
“Didn’t you know that 40% of rapists are women???”
“Didn’t you know that 60% of DV victims are men???”

Diana Adams
Diana Adams
6 years ago

Also isn’t Karen Straughan aka GWW a divorced single mother? Why didn’t she leave her kids for adoption and why is she abusing her kids in that case?

Flying Mouse
Flying Mouse
6 years ago

@Save the Queen – Mr. FM, like you, is another enigma. He’s fourteen years older than me and first asked me out when I was 21, so according to the PUA’s he should be the most alpha of the alphas, right? OTOH, he’s caught in Molyneux’s second generation asshole theory and he’s a Sandman-style beta because he married me. Since I, as a woman, am responsible for everything that happens to him, though, maybe I can raise his status by spending more time in the kitchen, making sandwiches (this has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that I want a grilled cheddar and tomato on sourdough… nope, totally doing it for him…).

The Chartreuse Vegan Capsule
The Chartreuse Vegan Capsule
6 years ago

Lady Raine, is that you? If so, glad to see you!

Was it this site or another one where the links to a number of different sites exposing Molyneux as a quack and home/family breaker were posted? Anyway, some months ago I read a bunch of really cultish, horrible things about him and how he encourages people to completely sever ties with their parents over small sh*t. He has a name for it that he coined and his cult followers use. One very heartbroken father created a website exposing a lot of his bullshit. And its not just about the wacky stuff Moly says. Its how he encourages people to do what he says – and they do! Now we may say, “personal responsibility” but if a person who’s in an emotionally vulnerable space comes across a smooth talking, overly confident guy who sounds like he could be at least smarter and more experienced than the vulnerable listener, well, that’s preying on the weak and kicking someone when they are down. Its the stuff dangerous cults are made of.

I can’t imagine why anyone would take his advice on anything. Its not like he’s going to reciprocate and take their advice on something. Oh no. He’s got his psychologist wife so they are all “set” as far as being “functional” is concerned. No need for him to sever ties with his family, but you should yours! And he’s an expert because his wife is a psychologist, remember.

With the internet and especially youtube, its so easy for self-important ego maniacs to prop themselves up as leaders. gods even. And there is no accountability whatsoever.

Scary!

cloudiah
6 years ago

MRAs seriously wake up each day and think, “What can I blame women for today?”

serrana
serrana
6 years ago

Women are biologically the only people able to care for very young children. It’s scienticious!

Karalora
Karalora
6 years ago

I don’t know about that, cloudiah. That statement presumes they wake up instead of drifting through each day in a sort of fugue state where they are only cognizant of their own hatred for women. It would certainly explain a lot.

tesformes
6 years ago

Off topic, but you guys HAVE to see this Blue Pill thread:

http://www.reddit.com/r/TheBluePill/comments/2a1q6r/paul_elam_founder_of_a_voice_for_men_turns_up_in/

Paul Elam is in the Men’s Rights subreddit angrily denying that he has any obligation to prove where the money he collected is going. MRAs who donated and went to the conference are asking for answers and he’s demanding their donation and ticket receipts before he’ll talk to them, and calling them liars if they don’t cough up.

I wonder if he learned how to do PR from JudgyBitch?

katz
6 years ago

Tesformes: That is making me grin extremely wide.

Ally S
6 years ago

Maybe it’s just because I’m processing a lot of trauma these days, but Elam sure sounds like an abuser with his thing about cornering people by accusing them of being evil liars if they can’t fulfill some ridiculous, arbitrary demand of his.

The Chartreuse Vegan Capsule
The Chartreuse Vegan Capsule
6 years ago

Another thing about Moly. He’s got all this “the truth about” series where he “deconstructs” and “exposes” famous people such as “The Truth About Martin Luther KIng” and “The Truth About Gandhi” and the “The Truth About Nelson Mandela” etc. I notice they are all people he would consider “heros of the ideological left” (rolls eyes) or people who are thought of in the mainstream as lovers of peace and justice.

I’ve scoured through but haven’t seen a “Truth About Ayn Rand” anywhere. She’s got some skeletons in her closest!

I have brought this up more than once in the Manosphere, particularly her extra-marital affair with a man half her age and would you believe the usual reply is something along the lines of “Rand was an alpha female who needed an alpha male. Her husband deserved to get cheated on because he was beta!”

So all women who cheat are lying, scheming, cuckolding whores, except for Ayn Rand?

And she wasn’t even good looking! If she were a feminist they would not stop criticizing her looks and behavior (same with Girl Writes What). But not a peep has been said about either of their looks (or short hair) so far. Meanwhile all feminists are ugly, short-haired, masculine looking she-men who are so unattractive they had to turn to feminism to wile away their extra time, having no man to spend it with.

A Wolverine
A Wolverine
6 years ago

I first learned of Stefan from a video where he was basically bragging about how many people he has driven away from himself with his libertarianism

Its no surprise that he’s attached himself to the MRAs, the only internet crank movement with an allergy to evidence that can rival libertarians

Lea
Lea
6 years ago

So, if I’m widowed or left after 18 yrs I should abandon all of my kids and hope for the best for them lest me raising them on my own be “abusive”

Bullshit.

Yeah….that’s fucking ridiculous and evil. If my co-parent got beamed up by aliens tonight, raising our family on my own would not be abuse.

I wonder how calling solo parenting abuse supports men raising kids on their own? Is it only women who are abusing kids by raising them alone? How the actual fuck does that make sense?

I knew a guy who’s wife “went out to get cigarettes” one night and never came back. She cleaned out the bank account and left him with the kids. He ended up living with his grandmother until he got back on his feet and raising his kids alone. Should he have known better? Was him keeping his kids abusive? Men have pulled that same stunt. Is it the woman’s fault when she leaves and her fault when her partner leaves her? If the couple consists of two dads, who get’s the blame? Does the blame shift to their closest female neighbor?

How does being having no parents help a boy? How does putting him in the overflowing, underfunded foster system help a boy who has a safe, loving home with his mom already? Sometimes foster care or a group home is the best available choice, but those are in extreme circumstances where no family is able or willing to provide an adequate home.

This is where their claim to want to help men falls apart. This douche doesn’t care about kids or supporting single parents of any gender. He only cares about demonizing and blaming women.

Meanwhile, when you give a child up for adoption, you get no guarantee that they will go to a straight, married, couple.

I know single women who foster and adopt. I know of gay couples who foster to adopt. One woman I know has 7 adopted children/teens. She has worked for Easter Seals for years and that led her to being a foster mom for special needs kids and teens. That led her to discover how many special needs kids and teens never get adopted. So, she started adopting special needs kids and teens. She’s amazing. The kids are happy and healthy. She loves them and has the skills and experience to give them everything they need. If she’d never decided that she could do this on her own, 7 kids (some of them boys) may well have never found a permanent placement. Now they have a family that treasures them.

That’s not abuse. That’s awesome.

tesformes
6 years ago

@Ally S

Yeah, I know right? Like, he didn’t even promise to show people the financial record. If you were kind enough to submit a whole bunch of your personal information to him via a Reddit PM proving that you gave him money, he would be glad to go through all of the information that AVFM has published on the topic so far with you. Is there anybody, MRA or feminist, who is stupid enough to give Paul Elam the chance to doxx you?

Ally S
6 years ago

Elam regarding the men’s rights subreddit: “This is not a community. It is a headline aggregate portal and does no activism.”

lol.

Tulgey Logger
Tulgey Logger
6 years ago

The term Molyneux uses for severing ties with one’s family is “deFOOing,” sort of like “delousing,” but for one’s family of origin (a therapy term which resolves some ambiguities around the term “family”). I don’t think he can be accused of hypocrisy on this count: as near as I can tell, he has in fact deFOOed. I’m pretty sure his wife has too: he once told a story on his podcast about him and his wife hiding upstairs while her parents knocked on their front door. But yes, the criteria he pushes for deFOOing—a perfectly legitimate thing to do in certain circumstances imo—can at times be shockingly low.

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