Jessica Roy, a reporter for Time magazine covering A Voice for Men’s recent :”Men’s Issues” conference in Detroit, found herself the target of a vitriolic tirade from AVFM maximum leader Paul Elam before she even sat down to write her account of her time amongst the MRAs.
Elam, evidently incensed about a handful of sarcastic remarks that Roy tweeted during the conference, denounced her as, among other things, a “hack,” “a liar and bigot” and a practitioner of “journalistic scumtardery,” whatever that is. Commenters on A Voice for Men happily joined in the hate, denouncing her as an “airhead,” a “disgrace and a liar,” “lil’ miss hair-o’or-her-eyes,” and a “little asshole [who] will look like a right nazi in five-to-ten years time.” Amazingly, no one pulled out the c-word. Evidently AVFMers are still on their best behavior.
Roy’s “What I Learned as a Woman at a Men’s Rights Conference” appeared on Time.com on Wednesday. Far from the hack job Elam and pals were predicting, her piece turned out to be a long, thoughtful and nuanced account that, while skeptical of AVFM and its brand of hateful nonsense, displayed considerable sympathy for some of the troubled men she met at the conference, men who could benefit from a movement that truly tried to offer solutions for men in difficulty instead of encouraging them to scapegoat feminists and women.
Reflecting on her discussions with several conference attendees, Roy wrote,
When you talk to someone like 68-year-old Steve DeLuca, the legitimate need to remedy some of the issues raised by men’s rights activists becomes more evident. A Vietnam veteran who was injured in combat, DeLuca spoke movingly to me about the two brothers he lost to suicide, and the unfathomable toll the high suicide rate among men can take. There are men out there, like DeLuca and [rape survivor] Brendan Rex, who have a real stake in the movement’s success. The paranoia and vitriol of its leaders can’t possibly do anything for them.
So how did AVFM fans respond to this article? By defending their vitriol. On Time.com, several commenters denounced Roy as “bigot” and a “fascist,” and suggested that their “righteous anger” was the only appropriate response to the evils of feminism.
Never mind that the quote Markham was responding to came from a paragraph in which Roy wrote with sympathy about the suffering of male Veterans and rape survivors.
Meanwhile, an anonymous commenter received upvotes for this, er, nuanced analysis:
In a followup comment, “Guest” doubled-down, suggesting that Roy was a “stinky twit” and a “human monkey.”
Roy made clear that she learned a good deal at the conference. The defenders of AVFM’s vitriol seem to have learned nothing.
NOTE: Picture of monkey party borrowed from here.
/sigh another annoying thing about ageing is that one’s metabolism slows down each decade. You have to eat less energy in order just to stay the same weight – eating the same amount will mean you put on weight.
Metabolism “slowing down”? Might be true, but that might be because of an aging, inefficient thyroid or adrenal gland slowing down. It’s worth keeping on top of. If it goes on now, and it is the thyroid slowing down, you won’t be in any state to ask/ demand/ insist on your thyroid being checked by the time you’re old and not thinking straight. Not thinking straight is, in fact, one of the less charming effects of a crook thyroid. Not to mention the advantages of living a better, healthier life in the decades leading up to that.
(Haven’t got a reference, but I heard once of a research program of blood testing and standard checking of all inpatients in a nursing home and prescribing a restricted, predictable range of standard medications – thyroxine, anti-depressants, analgesics and the like, nowadays I’d also expect vitamin D. They found that even those most advanced in dementia were much happier and easier to deal with. By “standard” they meant treating these people exactly the same as if they were attending a general practitioner. Amazingly enough, properly treating pain, depression and a routine, pedestrian – rather than exotic or rare – hormonal deficiency made people’s lives better. Whoever wooda thunkit!)
TMI about periods warning
ugh…periods. I cannot wait for menopause. When I was younger, my periods would last 8 days and come every 4 weeks. The first day, I would spend curled up in ball, in agony. When I reached my 20s, they settled down a little but I always got horrendous PMT, physically and emotionally. After having had kids (one of the joys of pregnancy = no periods. But, hey, one month after birth, wham, bang..there’s my effing period again), my periods still are regular, but only last about 4 days, one of which I’d be better off just sitting on the loo, waiting for it to be over. Still get PMT, although milder, but jeez my 34GG boobs hurt
That’s about the height Queen Victoria ended up at, too.
Oh yeah. What pisses me off is that my appetite hasn’t decreased, and stuffed if I’m going to put up with being hungry. The other thing is thinking how my skin could look if I should lose weight. I’d rather stay a bit overweight with nice smooth skin than lose weight and feel like I was wearing crushed wrinkled linen all the time. That’s not a self-image issue I could deal with.
BigMomma, eight-day periods and bad with it – that is so. much. suckage. 🙁
One periods and zits: I remember a friend back when we were in our thirties saying, “Our mothers told us acne clears up when you’re out of your teens. They lied.”
Yes re the acne, although having hormones even out past adolescence helps. Re pregnancy, some unfortunate women still menstruate throughout, normally. 🙁
Re thyroid and weight, I have had my thyroid checked a number of times and it has always been normal. Reduced requirement for energy as people ages is a recognised dietary fact, see for example http://www.webmd.com/diet/features/estimated-calorie-requirement which provides it as calories and http://www.nutritionaustralia.org/national/resource/balancing-energy-and-out#.U7kCubH1i0M which shows it as kJ.
One of the reasons weight maintenance and loss becomes so hard with age is, yeah, as you age your caloric requirement goes down. You have to eat less and less progressively in order to maintain weight and even less than that in order to lose it as you age. It suuuuuucks. I love eating and I know I’m going to have to all but give it up. It also becomes harder to exercise and build muscle and all those lovely health complications associated with obesity become of real concern with age. This comic is so depressingly germane: http://s3.amazonaws.com/theoatmeal-img/comics/exercise_response/exercise_response.png
Lots of women will bleed throughout their entire pregnancies. It’s not menstruation though. When menstruation occurs during pregnancy it’s because insufficient hormones are being released to halt menstruation and the fetus is too small or in the wrong location (ie, ectopic pregnancy), leaving some of the endometrium free to go about business as per usual. By the third month of pregnancy though menstruation will have stopped if the pregnancy’s viable. Some women will just keep on bleeding though. It sucks.
My gp suspected a thyroid problem when my periods stopped at 30, but I was fairly sure he was wrong. He was touting Hyperthyroidism as a cause, but I knew someone who had had that, and my body shape and energy levels were all wrong for it. HYPO, perhaps, not but HYPER.
The politest euphemism for time of the month I’ve come across is ‘Having a visit from the Cardinal, dear.’
Thanks for the Welcome, Kittehs, I’ve been lurking here for a few months, and find it very comforting to remember that there are nice and intelligent people of all kinds when the level of stupid and hateful in the news gets too much.
One of my girlfriends refers to her period as Moses. Red sea reference.
@kittehserf: I have serious, chronic gas when I have a bout of IBS, so I’m trying to hold it in most of the time at work anyway, as my diet sucks lately. I deal with so much nonsense at work that it’s nice to fire back sometimes. It’s one of the few things I can do to get back at a rude or grabby customer and not get in trouble.
gilshalos – interesting that periods still get called visits from the Cardinal – they were doing that in the seventeenth century!
Couldn’t agree more that it’s a relief to come here and talk to good, smart people. So much malicious fuckwittery in the world.
marinerachel, that’s a good name for it!
Nova, ow. Chronic gas sounds really uncomfortable at the very least. Probably a stupid question you’ve been asked 10000000000000 times already, but are there any pills that help you? I use Mintec for the odd occasions I’m uncomfortably gassy, or Gastrostop when it gets a bit too flood-tide. They’re both pretty good.
Hey Nova! Nice to see you around again, sorry to hear about your IBS issues. (That goes for everyone else here too)
Oh, dammit, three weeks again. Dammit, I’m not using the apparatus again; additional babies are not happening here; what do I need it for? Absolutely nothing, that’s what.
I prefer the XKCD form of period euphemism: It’s that “time of the month” when I’m “not at my best” because I’m “bleeding from my vagina”.
I saw the First Moon Party commercial for HelloFlo menstrual supplies. When the girl told her mother, “I’m on my lady days,” well, I thought, never heard that one before.
Remember reading that menstruation used to be less prevalent (as in, before the Neolithic period*). Menarche happened later, and breastfeeding went on longer. Having more than one non-walking child at a time is a problem for nomadic hunter/gatherers, and prolonging nursing reduces the risk of another pregnancy happening too soon. So now, with menarche at ten or eleven, few pregnancies, short or no breastfeeding, and later menopause – more menstrual cycles than our ancestresses ever had to deal with. Ain’t civilization grand?
*Pun entirely intended.
Bears. Getting attacked by vicious bears.
As in, I don’t want to go anywhere today, because BEARS. I will come next week when the GODDAMN BEARS have left.
Fuck periods, anyway.
I just posted a story of my own in the red pill share your story sectio. Of he AVFM forums. Ive been lurking for a long time and finally I decided I didn’t care if I got banned; it’d be a relief for my sanity of I was kicked out of that crazy walled garden. I dated a closet MRA for awhile and it was crazy.
So I wrote up my story. How I’m harassed all the time, mostly; I chose not to share how my dad shouts me down and second guesses me, or how other men think catcalling is a compliment. I hope I get banned forthwith from AVFM. I don’t think I’ll change anyone’s opinion by sharing my story there.
Sincerely
Caroline
And Kay gives us an idea of how much money Elam clear in the Cop-Con:
So… Elam gets a quick $23,000; and that’s a financial hardship.
Here’s an idea, and it’s super simple. Get the fuck out of our way.
Which means, in English, abolish feminism. Because the things feminism does, which “stand in their way” are things like making VAWA, the Ledbetter Act, Reproductive Rights, The Best Interest of the Child Model of Child Custody, Affirmative Consent, Non-consent = Rape, etc. the law/culture of the land.
Which are the the things they are against.
In short, Diz entire argument is, “get back in the kitchen”.
throwaway: I believe these sorts of sarcastic remarks didn’t use to be considered acceptable by reporters aiming for objective, neutral, insightful reporting.
Speaking as someone who used to practice the profession of journalism, you are mistaken; in both your understanding of what journalism is, what “objective” means, and how neutrality factors in.
Objective doesn’t mean (no matter what groups with agendae would like you to think) one has to regurgitate the claims of anyone who wants some press as if it were factual. Objective means looking at the facts, and treating them as facts. Sometimes the facts show one side of the argument is wrong. To pretend they aren’t is to mislead the pubic.
Neutral means the reporter ought not have a dog in the fight; or that if they do have some personal interest in what is being covered, they make it plain to both their editors, and their readers.
Reporters are not automatons, they are people. As such they cannot be completely neutral about anything contentious about which they have knowledge; which is why the various cultural ideals the press built came to be, so the reader could have some faith they weren’t being lied to by a mouthpiece for some outside interest; masking itself as “honest reporting”.
I also wonder just what it was she heard at this conference that was so shocking, so damaging, as to make her cry. If she truly did end up crying in response to the speeches there, I question her temperament and her fitness to be a reporter in general, much less a reporter trying to cover the men’s rights movement.
If you question what, at a conference where women were being blamed for all the evils of the word, and their struggle for equality was being declared long over; and perverted to a power-mad tyranny destroying society and the male half of the human race; by people who have gloried in being abusive to women… a conference where one of the leading figures said doxxing and terrorising people; in particular women (and women of groups to which Roy belongs) might make someone cry, I question your basic skills of comprehension and your humanity.
As to the last sentence about her fitness, again, you don’t know what the job entails.
Brooked: Like Woody, Throwaway is questioning Roy’s professionalism because of the conversational tone of her tweets while seeing nothing amiss with the AVfM crew’s twitter bomb-throwing. That must require a whole lot of willful ignorance.
Don’t you see, Roy is part of The Press, and needs to be held to a higher standard; JB, Esmay, et al. are Activists!, and so can be more vitriolic (but, of course, were they Feminist Activists, that would be different).
In fairness there are probably a lot of messed up people in the world in need of some kind of help. Sadly a lot of them fall into some kind of cult like sphere of influence that doesn’t really help them. I guess there is just a shortage of places that will truly help people and a lot of the places that will can be horribly bureaucratic and expect people to jump through a ton of hoops before doing anything useful.
Dude, you’re either WAY late or WAY early for Make Up Shit About Futrelle day. It’s traditionally celebrated in January.
But it’s nice to see that all MRAs like to engage in libel.
I thought this asshole was banned.
Lies are pretty much all the MRM has to work with. Some human rights movement.
Gotta love that fat-shaming at the end.
“You’re a pedophile apologist and you’re fat!”
Because both are equally bad, I guess. /sarcasm
Considering your rapid fire attack response, did any of you actually READ the article? It was published June 20, 2014. Just spotted something on it over at AVFM today.
I suggest you read them before you defend Futrelle on this one.