Jessica Roy, a reporter for Time magazine covering A Voice for Men’s recent :”Men’s Issues” conference in Detroit, found herself the target of a vitriolic tirade from AVFM maximum leader Paul Elam before she even sat down to write her account of her time amongst the MRAs.
Elam, evidently incensed about a handful of sarcastic remarks that Roy tweeted during the conference, denounced her as, among other things, a “hack,” “a liar and bigot” and a practitioner of “journalistic scumtardery,” whatever that is. Commenters on A Voice for Men happily joined in the hate, denouncing her as an “airhead,” a “disgrace and a liar,” “lil’ miss hair-o’or-her-eyes,” and a “little asshole [who] will look like a right nazi in five-to-ten years time.” Amazingly, no one pulled out the c-word. Evidently AVFMers are still on their best behavior.
Roy’s “What I Learned as a Woman at a Men’s Rights Conference” appeared on Time.com on Wednesday. Far from the hack job Elam and pals were predicting, her piece turned out to be a long, thoughtful and nuanced account that, while skeptical of AVFM and its brand of hateful nonsense, displayed considerable sympathy for some of the troubled men she met at the conference, men who could benefit from a movement that truly tried to offer solutions for men in difficulty instead of encouraging them to scapegoat feminists and women.
Reflecting on her discussions with several conference attendees, Roy wrote,
When you talk to someone like 68-year-old Steve DeLuca, the legitimate need to remedy some of the issues raised by men’s rights activists becomes more evident. A Vietnam veteran who was injured in combat, DeLuca spoke movingly to me about the two brothers he lost to suicide, and the unfathomable toll the high suicide rate among men can take. There are men out there, like DeLuca and [rape survivor] Brendan Rex, who have a real stake in the movement’s success. The paranoia and vitriol of its leaders can’t possibly do anything for them.
So how did AVFM fans respond to this article? By defending their vitriol. On Time.com, several commenters denounced Roy as “bigot” and a “fascist,” and suggested that their “righteous anger” was the only appropriate response to the evils of feminism.
Never mind that the quote Markham was responding to came from a paragraph in which Roy wrote with sympathy about the suffering of male Veterans and rape survivors.
Meanwhile, an anonymous commenter received upvotes for this, er, nuanced analysis:
In a followup comment, “Guest” doubled-down, suggesting that Roy was a “stinky twit” and a “human monkey.”
Roy made clear that she learned a good deal at the conference. The defenders of AVFM’s vitriol seem to have learned nothing.
NOTE: Picture of monkey party borrowed from here.
I agree with cassandrakitty. While it is true, as an earlier commenter said, that ‘Hurt people hurt people’, at what point is concern for the earlier hurts the hurt person suffered supposed to outweigh concern for the people they’re hurting right now? Only after the hurt person has stopped (or been stopped from) hurting others can you realistically address the reasons they’re lashing out. Even supposing that some of the people in the MRM are genuinely hurt people needing someone to help them and recognize their pain as valid, how exactly does the MRM as a whole help them? Dennis Markham literally ignored the fact that Roy showed more sympathy for two hurt men at the conference than most of the other attendees did and tried to keep the focus on justifying MRM vitriol on account of the fact that people like Roy supposedly don’t feel any sympathy for male suffering.
This is how MRAs treat anyone with a fairly moderate and almost positive view of their “movement”. How are they expecting anything different when people are calling them out as a bigoted hate movement?
I’m so happy you made this post, David. The “fascist” thing from the MRAs is getting not only tedious, but downright insulting. There are actual people suffering from actual fascism today. The MRM embraces values that are not too far from the values of KKK’ians (is that a word? I can’t tell), yeyt they seem to love throwing around that word to describe feminists willy-nilly. I mean, I’ve never been comfortable with calling any person “evil”, but after being introduced to the MRM, the sheer egotism and sense of entitlement that these people show is on its way to making me a believer.
Oh well. I’m, like, seriously super drunk right now, so I might not make much sense. I should be sleeping, but don’t wanna! Wanna stay awake just ten more minutes! Waaaaah!
BTW, congrats to kittehserf and emilygoddess for the mod-status! I’ve followed your posts for a long time, and I’m convinced there’re few people as qualified as you for this line of work!
the article really did come off as “the issues men face are real but the movement is being lead by foot shooting cranks”
And cultists cant stand their glorious leaders being criticized.
I’m not comfortable with the “hurt people hurt people” phrase. There are many hurt people who manage not to hurt others. And, in my experience, the people who do the most harm to others are themselves damaged only by a massive sense of entitlement.
Why would anyone say, “Hurt people hurt people,” anyway? Is it to remind us to have compassion for abusers? I don’t actually have any compassion in me for abusive people, and I don’t think anyone can guilt me into some by telling me that abusers are really suffering inside from prior injury. Even when that’s true (and I don’t think it’s a rule) I just can’t care. What other motive is there for using this phrase? I’m uncomfortable with what’s packed inside it.
The theory that bullies lash out to counter there own inner pain is more of a myth, they’re people that become bullies because they think their victims are losers who are fun to pick on.
http://www.education.com/reference/article/bullying-myths-facts/?page=2
I think the answer to the question of why someone would come up with the hurt people hurt people thing is that it’s a comforting myth. Much less disturbing to believe that there’s a reason why people are doing those things based in some sort of trauma than to realize that some people just enjoy hurting others.
Idk if y’all saw this, but I just finished the first page of comments and found this gem —
“I also wonder just what it was she heard at this conference that was so shocking, so damaging, as to make her cry. If she truly did end up crying in response to the speeches there, I question her temperament and her fitness to be a reporter in general, much less a reporter trying to cover the men’s rights movement.”
https://www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/2014/07/04/defenders-of-a-voice-for-men-tell-time-magazine-reporter-we-have-to-scare-you-into-listening-you-stinky-human-monkey/comment-page-1/#comment-528386
That’s right ladies, if someone gives a speech that you find upsetting, you don’t have the temperament to be a reporter!
You know that famous photo of the starving child with a vulture watching him, waiting? The photographer ended up killing himself. Did he not have the temperament to be a reporter? Or that’s just massively different from whether the age of consent should be 13 and whatever DV bullshit Pizzey felt like spewing that day? But those are just words? Well then, I have some words for you, I’ll start polite even — throwaway your throwaway nym and don’t come back.
@Argenti Aertheri
I really find the BEEP BOOP I AM PERFECT EMOTIONLESS MACHINE type MRAs the most fucking depressing kind
Except MRAs aren’t emotionless. If they were, they wouldn’t resort to knee-jerk rhetoric and insults. I don’t think that emotionless people throw tantrums. I think that may be your point – that those ones have the least insight into their own behaviour.
@Argenti
Like Woody, Throwaway is questioning Roy’s professionalism because of the conversational tone of her tweets while seeing nothing amiss with the AVfM crew’s twitter bomb-throwing. That must require a whole lot of willful ignorance.
@Anarchonist
::curtseys:: Merci!
@Policy of Madness
Totally agree.
@Argenti
I didn’t, until now. I wonder if she survived? (The photo was taken at a food drop-off point: he parents had left her there for the moment while they got food, they were only a few metres away. Kevin Carter chased the vulture away.)
Ugh. Throwaway is definitely an MRA masquerading as a neutral observer. I’m drunk and can’t believe I spelled any of that correctly!
Anyway, didn’t Roy cry after hearing rape apologia and MRAs laughing about rape? That’s not an unreasonable thing to be upset about. Chances are either she or someone she knows well is a rape survivor considering it’s about 1 of 5 or 6 women are rape survivors. I don’t trust anybody who thins one shouldn’t find the subject upsetting.
Thinks. Not thins! Drunk!
It’s funny how they always default to “women are clearly too womany to do this job”. Yeah, guys, that’s definitely why she sympathized with some of the attendees and didn’t think the organizers were doing anything to actually help them.
Kitteh — I know they were right by where the kid would get food, but I didn’t know he chased the vulture off. As for whether she survived, purely statistically, probably not.
“I really find the BEEP BOOP I AM PERFECT EMOTIONLESS MACHINE type MRAs the most fucking depressing kind” — yeah, me too. Claim total rationality and then go “I’m rational!” whenever called on BS, or faced with someone with emotions.
WWTH — that sounds right, and the CDC data that the MRM won’t drop said 1 in 5.
Taking pride in your immunity to other people’s pain isn’t rationality, it’s just being an asshole.
Not to mention being cowardly. It’s really fucking easy not to feel – or even bother thinking about – other people’s pain. I don’t see any of these straw-Vulcan types being so tough about their own concerns.
Argenti – sorry, yes, I gathered you knew about the where the child was; I got the impression people generally thought she was abandoned and Carter didn’t help her, and attacked him for that.
Yes, statistically, all too likely she didn’t make it.
On a positive note, I just took my psyllium and intend to have a terrific poop tomorrow.
And Marinerachel wins! Is there anything more misandrousious than a woman talking about her body and life? Moar poop talk!
Oooh, I can play that, and maybe get some “me too” answers from older Mammotheers –
Two days ago I got all the gripes that usually say my period’s on its way – belly + back + legs, you name it. Then, zip! No sign whatsoever.
Any other Mammotheers going through the joys of menopause/perimenopause had that happen?
As for poop … IBS. ‘Nuff said.
I am envious kitteh, I’m still “pre-menopausal”. The number of registrars and specialists I have had to mention that to in the past 2 months is incredible – it affects which hormone one gets put on for treatment.
I am looking forward to menopause, in particular the oestrogen-related migraines going.
As of Monday, I’m a twenty-six-year-old woman. Between my sister (twenty-nine), myself and our friends you will find an alarmingly prevalent trend of anxiety and irritable bowels. It is so sad when you get seven or eight young women in a room and they can all agree that one of the best things ever is not having diarrhoea. That’s the case though.
Growing up is hard.
pallygirl, urgh! I was lucky that my periods never did anything worse than be painful, which was mostly covered by the Pill. I do remember one time I was apparently so white, a friend at work said I looked like I’d been got at by Vlad. (Yes, this was when Gary Oldman was being gorgeous as Dracula, lol.) So far peri-menopause has been uneventful. I’ve had a few hot flushes, but they seem to have dropped off for the moment (since I was retrenched … hmmm!) I’m not on any hormones or medications for it, luckily. HRT would be a bad idea for me, with the history of stroke in the family.
marinerachel, should I say happy birthday, or would that sound stupid, considering? Best wishes, at any rate: may the year ahead see an improvement in everything for you.
I’ve found I don’t really care about diarohhea any more. I mean yeah, I think I’m going to have IBS forever, but given how much better I am than when the noise-stress thing was happening (we’re talking loud music starting up when I’m at home and having to get to the loo within five minutes, with vomiting involved on occasion, something that’s got at me for twenty-plus years), I’m not complaining. It’s just become the norm – and damn, better that than constipation!
Argh. I was so tired of hearing that. To me it felt like they were looking for something to blame symptoms on, like fatigue.
kitteh, I never had much in the way of pre-menstrual symptoms in later years but even though menopause was official last year, I recently had that achey feeling for a day or two.
Auntie Alias – not just me, then! Didn’t think it would be, but wanted to ask.
Too damn soon to hope I’ve hit menopause already. Stupid thing’s only been twitchy for a year at most, I think.