One last AVFM Conference update, with links to two more stories about that historic event.
The first, a gently skeptical Washington Post story by Monica Hesse titled, with a certain irony, “Men’s rights activists, gathering to discuss all the ways society has done them wrong.”
The whole thing is worth reading. My favorite bit:
One presenter, a military veteran speaking on the treatment of veterans returning from war, put up a PowerPoint slide alleging that 70 percent of men returning from war get divorced, and 90 percent do so within five years. When asked about the source of this statistic, he said, “That particular statistic is from my personal observations. I’m just speaking here as a dude.”
Ah, the prestigious Journal of Statistical Dudeness!
The second, well, it’s a bit more disturbing. DarkHorseSwore – a regular in the AgainstMensRights subreddit who raised money to go to Detroit to cover the convention only to be turned away at the door – managed to finally get an audience with some of the conference attendees and organizers – after the convention, as they celebrated at a bar and then in a hotel lobby. She got this access because none of them knew who she was. (Eventually Dean Esmay showed up and had her escorted off the premises.)
Now DarkHorseSwore has set up a website – DarkHorseSwore.com – and has started posting about the strange 5 ½ hours she spent amongst the AVFMers. She tells the tale of a strange encounter with one of the Honey Badgers and then an even stranger tale of an even stranger encounter with an old man and his camera. You’ll have to go read it. Be warned: It’s creepy as hell.
Oh, and she picked up some amazing conference swag as well. And by “amazing” I mean “possibly the worst conference swag I’ve ever seen, I mean, what the hell, and also why are they all beige?”
In a city the size of Detroit you’d think there would be some local proto-MRAs who’d show up, especially once they started offering to give away tickets for free. But nope, all I see is the older guys.
@Sir Bodsworth
I’ve noticed that most of the younger MRAs who say the really nasty stuff online make some effort to hide their real identity. Could be that they’re more net savvy and aware of how stuff they say online could follow them around, but could also just be that they’re more worried about rejection by their peer group, whereas for some of the older guys who love AVFM I get the impression that they lead very lonely lives and don’t really have a peer group to worry about offending.
(Note that this does not excuse the things they say online – being lonely isn’t justification for being a hateful asshole.)
Maybe the younger ones were too busy with their dudebro gamer activism to be able to attend the conference.
@ emilygoddess – oh yeah, I forgot how overpriced this thing was.
@ Cassandrakitty — also didn’t think of that. There’s a level of everyday misogyny that, sadly, most people don’t balk at, but showing MRA level hatred will lose you friends quickly.
The Chartreuse Vegan Capsule — the bald guy right in the camera’s focus is Forney? *throws a party* that means it’s not my ex!! You just made my day.
Or their parents wouldn’t let them attend a two day conference without a chaperone.
Besides, the younger internet misogynists are probably saving their conference-going money for anime or sci fi conventions. Lots more women to harass at those than were ever going to turn up to an AVFM event.
Well, they do need to save their energy for going around harassing female cosplayers as being fake. All that finger pointing must be exhausting.
I always got the impression that the reddit MRAs were younger and the AVFM MRAs were a little older.
“The Chartreuse Vegan Capsule — the bald guy right in the camera’s focus is Forney?”
I’m pretty sure.
*throws a party* that means it’s not my ex!!”
OK!
” You just made my day.”
Glad to be of service.
And yeah, if you peruse the internet blogs and forums it seems MRAs veer older whereas PUAs and MGTOWs veer younger in age.
I am the one who gave that statistic. and I am still in the military and can not speak on behalf of the military. If the usual divorce rate is 50% why is it unbelievable that 70% of comebat troop return to a divorce and 90% are divorced within 5 years? I also run secondclasscitizen.org and have spoken to over 3500 service members since 2007 and that stat rings true . I am the only one tracking this stat. But in the end I am just a dude talking about dude stuff at redonkulas.com
Um, statistics don’t really work that way, at least not if you want anyone to take you seriously?
Interestingly, it appears that survey data indicate that military divorce rates are getting lower:
http://www.military.com/daily-news/2013/01/23/military-divorce-rate-down-slightly-in-2012.html
But it’s really easy to get access to reputable studies of the military divorce rate, so there’s really no excuse for just pulling numbers out of the air and using them because they “ring true.”
Here’s another study that shows that the divorce rate is higher for female soldiers than it is for male soldiers, and that the divorce rate increases as deployment lengths rise (but is still nowhere near the rate you claim):
http://www.rand.org/news/press/2013/09/03.html
I have found literally no study that bears out your figures, not even close.
I have been with 3 units since the war began, in all 7 out of 10 married soldiers returned to divorce and only 6 couples out of the 500 men in 3 units , since are still together? That is way beyond the 90% number? and the pentagon numbers are a joke. this needs to be studied and documented by a social scientist. it is no claim I saw it first hand. I guess you can say I am an actual witness
But he talked to some other guys and they confirmed what he said. It’s not like it could possibly be selection bias or anything. MRAs are the most STEM man logicky of all the human beings and their “facts” could never, ever be anything but true!
It’s okay, redonkulas. Your supporters will believe you even if you pulled that figure from your ass – you’re a man, after all, and of course the most ardent and unapologetic supporters of male misogynists trust everything that misogynist men say.
RE: redonkulas
the pentagon numbers are a joke. this needs to be studied and documented by a social scientist.
“Screw the numbers I HAVE ANECDOTES!”
Seriously, dude, I didn’t expect you to double down on your bullshit TWICE!
Redonkulas, Social scientists are the ones providing these studies that you are rejecting in favor of your own personal experience, which is based on a sample that is not randomized.
Here, by contrast, is the sample that the Rand study (made up largely of social scientists!) was based on just for comparison:
More from the Rand study, which sadly seems to be behind a paywall:
If you’d like to see the study, I might be able to arrange something. I’m not comfortable giving you my email, but you could email David and I could send it to him or something. Let me know.
I lived it, and you believe when you join the army or military during a time of war with the high deployment rate make divorce less then in the real world? OK I also marched down main street with leave it to Beaver? I lived it, I saw it, I recorded it.
Dude, we don’t need to mock you when you’re doing such a good job making a mockery of yourself.
No one here is denying that serving in the military, coupled with long deployments, can put stress on marriages and lead to a greater divorce rate. But your numbers are flat out wrong, and you keep telling us that we should believe them because you really, really believe them yourself.
*sigh* Where are our army vets when we need them? I’m sure Hyena Girl or pecunium could take care of this.
for high operational soldiers like the 82nd, 101st, special forces, rangers, MARSOC and seals the numbers are correct, I spoke to over 3500 of them over 7 years plus seen it first hand. they are not tracking this statistic. but its cool, believe what you will. I am a military man and say this. “the numbers put out by the pentagon are wrong” it would not be the first time the government has lied to us.
You recorded Leave It To Beaver?
Cloudiah, I’d be interested in that study! But, you might not need to send me anything… I’ve got access to some journals on the far sides of a paywall by virtue of a nearby campus.
Could I get the title of the study? It might be interesting reading…
http://www.robertson-law-firm.com/blog/2012/05/war-brings-divorce-risk-for-special-forces-soldiers.shtml
Contrapangloss, it’s this one:
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00148-013-0485-5/fulltext.html