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One Last Damn AVFM Conference Update: Man With a Camera Edition

It wasn't this guy.
It wasn’t this guy.

One last AVFM Conference update, with links to two more stories about that historic event.

The first, a gently skeptical Washington Post story by Monica Hesse titled, with a certain irony, “Men’s rights activists, gathering to discuss all the ways society has done them wrong.”

The whole thing is worth reading. My favorite bit:

One presenter, a military veteran speaking on the treatment of veterans returning from war, put up a PowerPoint slide alleging that 70 percent of men returning from war get divorced, and 90 percent do so within five years. When asked about the source of this statistic, he said, “That particular statistic is from my personal observations. I’m just speaking here as a dude.”

Ah, the prestigious Journal of Statistical Dudeness!

The second, well, it’s a bit more disturbing. DarkHorseSwore – a regular in the AgainstMensRights subreddit who raised money to go to Detroit to cover the convention only to be turned away at the door – managed to finally get an audience with some of the conference attendees and organizers – after the convention, as they celebrated at a bar and then in a hotel lobby. She got this access because none of them knew who she was. (Eventually Dean Esmay showed up and had her escorted off the premises.)

Now DarkHorseSwore has set up a website – DarkHorseSwore.com – and has started posting about the strange 5 ½ hours she spent amongst the AVFMers. She tells the tale of a strange encounter with one of the Honey Badgers and then an even stranger tale of an even stranger encounter with an old man and his camera. You’ll have to go read it. Be warned: It’s creepy as hell.

Oh, and she picked up some amazing conference swag as well. And by “amazing” I mean “possibly the worst conference swag I’ve ever seen, I mean, what the hell, and also why are they all beige?”

A wooden necklace thing, symbolizing who the hell knows what!
A wooden necklace thingy, symbolizing who the hell knows what!
A "What Would Honey Badgers Do?" button!
A “What Would Honey Badgers Do?” button!
And last but not least, a Shrink for Men chapstick! It's minty!
And last but not least, a Shrink 4 Men chapstick! It’s minty!

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kittehserf MOD
6 years ago

God, help me, not only do I have to help fight injustice in general but I have to now redeem my favorite head wear this fedora thing blows me mind. I had no idea that it was linked with MRAs. this is like finding out about hipsters and mustaches. to be fair ti hipsters their to ironic to hate anything. I wear fedoras and have a mustache because I want to since i was little, not to be identified with some movement. in even in the smallest most unimportant ways, the MRM can ruin everybody’s fun

.

Ken L., I sympathise! My husband wears fedoras and I think they’re gorgeous hats. It irritates me that they’re associated with these losers.

Whatever else one can say about hipsters, at least they dress well. I’m not into beards but the full, well-groomed beards I see some young guys wearing look really good.

jared
jared
6 years ago

@Robert

Listen I hear what your saying it is just that this type of groupthink is what can lead to an Elliot Rogers type of incident. This is where it originates with these mra’s as a collective mindset and then you hear of a horrible violent crime in the newspaper. Wasn’t all the talk after the Rogers massacre about mra’s? But not many people knew about the mrm prior.

As for me I still think he is dangerous but I am glad the conference is over. I’m tired of arguing and Isidore pointed out to me in her comment about burnout. This conference and mra stuff is causing me to get depressed and not sleep well and agitated.

So whatever I’m glad this is the last thread on the avfm convention and I’m going take a break for a few days and chill out and camp out in upstate NY in the mountains as Isidore mentioned. I’m tired and annoyed how all this mra stuff is getting to me emotionally and I do not want argue. I need to call a halt to all this mrm stuff.

I still contend this is a great blog and most people here have been very supportive to me even if they disagree. I know this is more of a mockery blog and I was maybe getting to high strung and serious but I mean well, and you guys are awesome because your at least putting a light on a very dark aspect of our society.Cheers

jared
jared
6 years ago

It was actually Isabelle not Isidore who pointed to out to me about burnout. Thanks Isabelle

tiko72
tiko72
6 years ago

@Gunter
Re DarkHorseSwore.Reading her account she was sat next to that guy a while,You’d of thought he might eventually have said “I just realised what I said earlier,I didn’t mean it to come out like that.” Don’t these people hear themselves?
Regarding my point about the state of their movement,although it was a joke I think it’s a fair assessment but I wouldn’t give them any credit for deliberately trying to confuse outsider’s.I’m sure they sincerely believe that randomly insulting women (that’s an understatement)on the internet is all they need to do.Notice how when they’re asked about how they’re actually helping men they never bloody answer and usually hurl out more abuse and a lot of the time when they mention specific men’s issues it’s to moan about why feminist’s aren’t doing anything about them.

Gunter
Gunter
6 years ago

@brooked – That song played so damned much for a while that I still get it stuck in my head. Having rapey bullshit play over and over again in my head does not make me happy.

She had better learn to fear the Feminist Overlords, though. I’m training my cats to jump and attack the faces of anyone who uses the term “Men’s Human Rights Activist” seriously in their presence. My kitties have a fine ear for sarcasm, though, so no need to worry here. 😀

@kittehs – Steeb also loves fedoras, and is quite unhappy about the fact that they’ve been ruined for him by misogynists. And congrats on the upgrade to mod!

tiko72
tiko72
6 years ago

@Gunter

I hope my last post didn’t sound patronising at the end.

kittehserf MOD
6 years ago

She had better learn to fear the Feminist Overlords, though. I’m training my cats to jump and attack the faces of anyone who uses the term “Men’s Human Rights Activist” seriously in their presence. My kitties have a fine ear for sarcasm, though, so no need to worry here. 😀

Like this?

Gunter
Gunter
6 years ago

Re DarkHorseSwore.Reading her account she was sat next to that guy a while,You’d of thought he might eventually have said “I just realised what I said earlier,I didn’t mean it to come out like that.” Don’t these people hear themselves?

lolno. I think they’re the most self-uncritical group of people I’ve ever seen. And they’re in the running with the fundamentalist street preachers I used to bat around for fun.

Regarding my point about the state of their movement,although it was a joke I think it’s a fair assessment but I wouldn’t give them any credit for deliberately trying to confuse outsider’s.I’m sure they sincerely believe that randomly insulting women (that’s an understatement)on the internet is all they need to do.Notice how when they’re asked about how they’re actually helping men they never bloody answer and usually hurl out more abuse and a lot of the time when they mention specific men’s issues it’s to moan about why feminist’s aren’t doing anything about them.

I think it could, possibly, be both. They mock and laugh at David’s attempts to pierce the fog of their ridiculous arguments, so I wouldn’t put it past them to do some weird things just for shits and giggles. How else do you explain JudgyBitch? Wait, don’t answer that…I think the mental agility required to follow an argument that necessarily convoluted might result in a sprained frontal lobe.

But I do agree that, for the most part, they think that piddling around on the internet, being hateful bigots is all the “activism” that really needs to be done, hence the lack of “MHRM” mens’ shelters and the like. They want feminists to do their legwork for them, ideally while not complaining about being called whores about a thousand times (thanks again, JB!).

Gunter
Gunter
6 years ago

@tiko72 – I didn’t read it that way! 🙂

@kittehs – Something like, but with a giant Maine Coon that hates having her claws trimmed!

kittehserf MOD
6 years ago

That’s a picture begging to be made, Gunter! XD

tiko72
tiko72
6 years ago

@Gunter
Thanks,being newish sometimes a bit worried about how I come across.

@brooked

Thanks.

@Everyone (apart from trolls)

I love kitties and the one sat on my knee right now told me to tell you.

Gunter
Gunter
6 years ago

Ask, kittehs, and ye shall receive!

@tiko72 – I’ve been reading for years, but I’m new to commenting, so I know the feeling. 🙂

emilygoddess - MOD
emilygoddess - MOD
6 years ago

watermelonsugar,

My vote is that it’s a next-gen Pokemon. It’s Misandrite, the evolved form of Misandraby. It’s a psychic-fairy type and is famous for its attack Mansplainatoin, which stuns and confuse the opponent.

A+ would LOL again

Cassandra,

Even if they weren’t dangerous on a wider societal influence level, it’s pretty much just a matter of time before one of their followers goes after one of their official female rage targets with a gun.

LONE WOLF FALSE FLAG MENTAL ILLNESS NOT OUR FAULT!

kittehserf MOD
6 years ago

Gunter, LOL! Love it!

tiko72, hi and welcome – glad you are another servant of the Furrinati Overlords!

Gunter
Gunter
6 years ago

PUA Hate? B*TCH THAT AIN’T EVEN THE MANOSPHERE

tiko72
tiko72
6 years ago

Thanks Gunter and Kittehserf

I’m off to bed now (it’s 3.40am here in England and I forgot to take my sleeping tab)

Goodnight.

Robert
Robert
6 years ago

Someone did a parody of Blurred Lines, called “Church Signs”. It’s actually amusing. Only positive aspect of that song existing, imnsho.

Gunter
Gunter
6 years ago

G’night! Had fun talking with you. ^_^

Gunter
Gunter
6 years ago

@Robert – That had me scaring the cats with laughter. Thanks for that! 😀

kittehserf MOD
6 years ago

Niters tiko72! 🙂

Unimaginative
Unimaginative
6 years ago

I’ve actually never (to my knowledge) heard the song. I’m hoping to keep it that way.

Unimaginative
Unimaginative
6 years ago

I’m actually watching the Canada Day special on CBC and seeing some good performances, some of which I had no idea were Canadian. Apparently I am an out-of-touch fuddy-duddy. But when did Daniel Lanois get so old?

kittehserf MOD
6 years ago

I’ve actually never (to my knowledge) heard the song. I’m hoping to keep it that way.

Ditto. Just laying eyes on that Thicke character the first time yesterday was gross enough.

pecunium
6 years ago

I think (and it doesn’t make it any better) Camera Dude was trying to make a pass at her when he mentioned “later tonight”, by letting her know that he was planning to have a wank; thus letting her offer to come up and join him.

pecunium
6 years ago

I think the Detroit thing is supposed to be the conference destroying the present paradigm of the present male-female power dynamic.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
6 years ago

How to fail at logos/icons — leave a bunch of people familiar with your movement guessing at what your logo/icon means.

weirwoodtreehugger
6 years ago

That Honey Badger button says, “He wouldn’t care, that’s what!” and it’s just general Cafe Press merchandise. A friend of mine had one of those buttons a few years ago when everyone was so taken by the Youtube video that put honey badgers in the limelight for a while. Meaning the animal, not those confusing women.

They didn’t even make their own merchandize? They just bought it from Café Press? LOL.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

Free tip for guys – if you’re trying to make a pass at a woman don’t tell her that she reminds you of your daughter (you creeper).

pecunium
6 years ago

cassandra: Damn… I was planning to use that, as soon as I got rich, so I could sweep up all the HB10s i deserve.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

Before the misters get upset at this criminally gender specific advice! Ladies, don’t hit on younger men by telling them that they remind you of your son either. It’s creepy, and may cause permanent libido loss.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
6 years ago

Pecunium — first you need to have a daughter. And let me spoil her. I love kids, I just don’t want any of my own. REPRODUCE DAMNIT!

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
6 years ago

How about don’t compare someone you’re hitting on to any relative? Particularly not children // nieces/nephews // other younger than you people.

Pecunium, really, have a kid, I promise not to spoil them too rotten. Just the right amount of ice cream before dinner and sure you can play with worms, just wash your hands after.

kittehserf MOD
6 years ago

I’d go one further and say don’t compare someone you’re hitting on to anyone. At best it sounds trite or phoney.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

“Your eyes remind me of a…”

“Just stop, OK? You’re embarrassing yourself, and everyone else.”

pallygirl
pallygirl
6 years ago
kittehserf MOD
6 years ago

Could make some good replies, of course …

“Really? Your eyes remind me of the time I had conjunctivitis.”

kittehserf MOD
6 years ago

I saw that yesterday, pallygirl – it was LOLworthy indeed!

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
6 years ago

Idk, honest comparisons could be fine. Like, idk, comparing someone’s sense of humor to a comedian that they remind you of, or any trait to a friend, e.g. if their music collection reminds you of a buddy of theirs.

kittehserf MOD
6 years ago

YMMV of course, but I don’t care for being compared with other people. I’d like it even less if someone did it while hitting on me, even if I liked being hit on.

thewatchingdog
thewatchingdog
6 years ago

Please, how can I check if my own “widget” is on? i never heard of that

Isabelle
Isabelle
6 years ago

“Signal boost for Auntie Alias’s link on Farrell blaming Elliot Rogers’s mother. Remember that this is the intellectual heavyweight of the MRM, such as it is, and its most compassionate face. ”

That one is straight from Stefan Molyneux playbook who did a popular youtube vid (400K views) on the topic. Its at 1h28min on “The truth about Elliot Rodger”.

Toddles Manboob, esq.
Toddles Manboob, esq.
6 years ago

@Auntie Alias

It hadn’t occurred to me, but that sounds extremely plausible.

thewatchingdog
thewatchingdog
6 years ago
Reply to  Ally S

I think he was doing the “implied threat”..we have your picture..she mentioned on her blog he commented about knowing what state she lived in..but idk the circumstances of how that entered the conversation. Also he was degrading her,intentionally with sexual overtones to her face..and he made sure she knew it..All with a veneer of paper thin courtesy.If she had spoke about it there..they would start screaming elevator-gate 2 or something..I think they want to provoke something that can be exploited. Swore handled the whole scene like a boss I thought. I’d really like to know though..isn’t the bar of a hotel public..how did they get her thrown out?

kittehserf MOD
6 years ago

Please, how can I check if my own “widget” is on? i never heard of that

Ditto, thewatchingdog, I’d like to know what I should be sure is off on my blog.

brooked
brooked
6 years ago

@Isabelle

That one is straight from Stefan Molyneux playbook who did a popular youtube vid (400K views) on the topic. Its at 1h28min on “The truth about Elliot Rodger”.

How long is Molyneux’s “Truth about Elliot Rodger” and did you actually watch it? I’m both impressed and horrified if you subjected yourself to it in order to call out Molyneux and his grotesque bullshit. Listening to that misogynistic ass sound off at length about Eliot Rodger has to be soul-crushing at best.

brooked
brooked
6 years ago

@Aunty Alias

We will be doing a profile of one of these groups near where we held our conference, which attacked our conference and tried to stop it happening; their budget for “social activism” alone is about 4 times higher than our entire operating budget worldwide; their total budget, most of which goes to pay staff, is $4,000,000 annually, most of that from government funds. That’s in one county (Oakland) in one state (Michigan). They are typical; they are proudly ideological feminists, believing pseudoscientific non-falsifiable concepts like “The Patriarchy” ( just like you do, apparently) and while they give lip service to male victims they have practically no services for them, keeping them very much on the margins and using their few males as tokens, and still rely on hateful concepts like “toxic masculinity” to explain sexual and intimate partner violence in the face of a mountain of scientific research (which I can also point you to) which calls all that into quesiton.

Feminism is an ideology as well as an industry. The network of groups controlling the money (Haven in Oakland County Michigan being one of them) are very deeply invested in the myth that domestic violence is primarily perpetrated by men (it isn’t) and the myth that sexual assault is primarily male-perpetrated (it isn’t). Their services are geared toward these ideology-based beliefs rather than evidence-based and solution-oriented programs.

Ok, I’m trying to wrap my brain around this. Esmay is saying that, emboldened by the supposed success their ramshackle conference, AVfM is going to attack a DV charity? They don’t like it’s feminism, so they are going to attack it’s approach to DV services? I like how he admits that this is really just an act of revenge. I guess they’re bored with doxxing individual women and want to smear a whole organization. JFC.

What are they hoping will happen? Do they want to debate domestic violence on TV with their staff? Do they really think they are better versed in DV literature and have better thought out “evidence-based and solution-oriented programs” than an actual charity with a 4 mil budget? I guess they want a lot more people to know just how obnoxious they are. They really think being a public nuisance is activism. What a bunch of goofs.

Isabelle
Isabelle
6 years ago

@brooked

The vid is 1h58min. Molyneux has been a bête noire of mine for many years. The misogynist schtick is a new twist for him so I stocked up on ibuprofen, slipped into a hazmat suit and l and watched the whole godawful thing. He has been preying for years on young people, mostly young men with libertarian leanings, to hook them up and pay fees to subscribe to his webpage. Same crowd that falls for Ayn Rand, another one of my nemesis. He is just one of those people who give me the heebie jeebies until I can figure why. That’s an unfortunate tendency as over the years, I ended up reading a lot of unsavory stuff like, Marinetti’s Futurist Manifesto, fascist writings, some of Rand nauseating crap, etc…My take on it is that behind all the ideological window dressing, the spiel works because it appeals emotionally to the worst in human nature.

Flying Mouse
Flying Mouse
6 years ago

My take on it is that behind all the ideological window dressing, the spiel works because it appeals emotionally to the worst in human nature.

QFT. That kind of philosophy speaks to the inner adolescent: you’re special and misunderstood, everyone else is a useless waster, you deserve everything you have because of the clarity of your vision and the sweat of your brow. The fact that most of the people I’ve met who subscribe to that kind of worldview pretty much walked into their place in the world is irrelevant. It doesn’t matter that I’m cis and white in a heteronormative white supremacist society! It doesn’t matter that I was born into comfort! Success is a marker of virtue!

I ended up reading a lot of unsavory stuff like, Marinetti’s Futurist Manifesto, fascist writings, some of Rand nauseating crap, etc…

I feel your pain, Isabelle. One of my favorite high school teachers was an Objectivist and a libertarian. I read Ayn Rand’s We the Living as part of his AP European History curriculum, and then went on to read the rest of her greatest hits over the course of college and my early twenties. The good thing is that I now have first-hand knowledge of what the Randians are spouting. The bad things are that I wasted hours of my life reading Atlas Shrugged, and that reading Ayn Rand in public tends to draw in a certain school of dudebro that you usually want to repel with garlic and concentrated sunlight. Poor little honeybuns! They’re always so confused when you’ve read and understood the tenets of their pet philosophy and still fail to be enthralled. Could it be because the same people who swear they will never live for another man will often in their next breath argue that a woman has a moral imperative to carry every pregnancy to term? Nah, couldn’t be that! Must be some failure of intellect or virtue on my part.

opium4themasses
opium4themasses
6 years ago

Ya. The randroids are against supporting moochers, unless that means they can force a woman to do so? I am shocked, I tell you.

Just like they support the freedoms of corporations to limit the freedoms of actual people.

Luzbelitx
6 years ago

Am I the only person who’s actually really creeped out by that “Kiss Abuse Goodbye” chapstick?

Not at all, I got that same feeling when I saw it.

Like, really? Kiss abuse goodbye? Like it’s a sweet friend you’re gonna miss? Or should we kiss our abusers goodbye? WHAT THE FUCK, ASSHOLES WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK.