This is for a continuation of the discussion about the ethics of calling the police when a friend is suicidal that started here.
No trolls, no MRAs, etc etc. Trigger Warnings for discussion of suicide.
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We Hunted The MammothBucking the Backlash
Thanks fruitloopsie, I don’t blame myself as much as I did then, but there are still times where I think I could have done something especially as our senior boss was very good about psychological health. I still think about her sometimes and think the world would be a better place if she was in it – this was a person that nobody had a bad word to say about.
There is another element to this too. I remember one teenager overdosing (for obvious reasons I am not going to give much detail) and taking two weeks to die. Back then, there was no treatment for the overdose (there is now, but still not going to give details). So, he was conscious for most of his dying phase, his family visited him numerous times in hospital, and he changed his mind about wanting to die. At the end of the two weeks, he was dead.
I know this is another anecdote, but so is everything else being posted in this thread (bar the involuntary incarceration stats).
Sorry, that second paragraph was triggered by cassandra’s comment above.
mildlymagnificent – yup, that’s cold! It’s 13 here, the apparent temperature is around 6. Looks like it’ll be hovering around 14 most of the week. It’s been blowing and raining all day (such fun when a whole branch from that rotten palm tree crashes onto the tin roof of the carport).
Cassandra – it looks like draught stoppers are sold online, if that’s any help.
We have a draft in the lounge and I can never figure where it’s from. Windows are closed, doors have draught stoppers, yet there’s this faint movement of cold air. Could be window frames aren’t sealed too well, I guess.
On the intervention question: what Leum said. We’re not talking about people who have dreadful illnesses and make the long-term decision that they don’t want intervention (I have a medical form stating very clearly that I don’t want intervention, being kept alive artificially, or any extreme measures at all in such a situation). This is depression and crisis.
This. When it was raised, it was dismissed as cherry-picking. Bizarre.
Try a rolled-up towel, or a long stocking filled with stuff. You could probably get some wool, cotton, or some kind of synthetic quilting batting from a craft store.
I have nothing useful to add to the intervention discussion, except that in most Canadian communities there’s crisis prevention helpline. If you or someone you know is showing signs of suicide, you can call them for advice. Not the best option in an emergency situation, but helpful if you have a feeling something’s about to happen, or if you need help recovering after failing to intervene in time.
Oh look, other countries have them too! Good. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_suicide_crisis_lines
What about the people who, if an intervention is made, will change their minds? I know that “it’s a cry for help” is a cliche, but honestly, it’s often true. And I get that there’s no way to know for sure in a given situation whether that’s going on or not, but if it’s a person you know well you can tell that’s what’s happening, sometimes. In those situations are people really arguing that you should just go ahead and watch them kill themselves out of respect for their autonomy? Even if you’re pretty sure that if they could just get through this particular crisis point they’d probably be OK? Because there is no way in hell that I’m going to cosign that. Not when I know people who were suicidal in the past who’re very glad to be alive now.
I experienced what is known in the literature as “intrusive suicidal ideation”. This was a couple of years ago. When I told my husband, he said, very meaningfully, “You ARE going to tell your doctor, AREN’T you?” So I did, and got therapy. He (my husband) made it very clear to me that any solution to any problem that involved killing ANYone was off the table. Not me, not the kids, not him – nobody.
I have told my son about this, to let him know that he is not alone in this. I know how it felt for me, so although it’s not the same, I can tell him that not doing it is preferable to doing it. Part of it for me, having lived through San Francisco in the 1980s, is that a lot of people I knew well never got to be as old as I am now. I know that, if I wait long enough, I’m going to die anyway. That thought, oddly enough, takes some of the urgency out of it.
@kitteh, maybe placing a candle in various spots would help you detect the source?
Pallygirl
“Thanks fruitloopsie, I don’t blame myself as much as I did then, but there are still times where I think I could have done something”
We all had that feeling at one point in our lives but sometimes there isn’t much or really anything we can do, we are only human. Every situation and person is different about these types of things and what’s wonderful is that you tried.
Auntie Alias, that’s a good idea.
It’d better be a Scented Fucking Candle, I suppose.
@kitteh, LOL!
I don’t know if it gets cold enough in Australia to need this but plastic wrap, the kind you wrap food in is good for keeping out window drafts. You pull it flat and tight and tape it to the window frame with packing tape or duct tape. Then blast it with a hair dryer. It keeps out drafts and saves on heating bills.
Okay, this is cute: http://www.neatorama.com/2014/06/22/Cat-Captain-You-Have-The-Bridge-Number-One-I-Have-to-Take-a-Nap/#!2rIfL
The Russian Navy is now awesome in my book.
WWTH – ooh, like shrink-wrapping things!
Cat Captain, yay!
Did you see this tee shirt design linked on that page?
http://www.neatoshop.com/product/Monster-Rhapsody
Oooo… no, that’s funny. This is the one I particularly want: http://www.neatoshop.com/product/Look-Out-Schrodingers-Cat-Its-a-Trap
@Leum & Steampunked
Those are reasonable positions. I’m not sure if I disagree with you. If I do, it’s a matter of degree. It might be pointless to talk about this kind of stuff too abstractly–the details of individual cases are probably more relevant to making decisions than theory.
@cassandrakitty
I think I was overgeneralizing my own experience of depression. I don’t want to get all TMI about my mental problems, but it’s a very chronic thing. Any decision to kill myself would be the result of long-term deliberation, and is not something I’m likely to change my mind about. This is obviously not the case for everyone, and I should have taken that into account.
This thread needs cute animal videos.
All threads need cute animal videos.
It can get meta:
http://youtu.be/3JDwgsLgWn4
http://youtu.be/w5kWl9zV1Qk
Long-time lurker, but I wanted to make my first comment because I think this is a very important conversation.
I want to +1 Leum’s response to zoon echon logon:
Yes, this. I’ve been suicidal in the past, and I can say at this point that I’m very happy to still be alive.
I know it’s not an uncontroversial belief, but I acknowledge that suicide can be a rational, liberating choice, and not just for people with terminal or painful non-psychological illnesses. That being said, suicidality is also a serious symptom of psychological troubles – troubles severe enough to render a person incapable of making an informed decision in the moment. Given the failure modes of the two options – preserving the life of a person who didn’t know they needed and/or weren’t getting help, versus betraying the trust and autonomy of someone who had made an informed decision to die – in the absence of context, I will absolutely choose to call emergency services.
I would hope that if someone I cared about had made an informed decision to end their life, they might forgive me for erring on the side of caution – but I can understand why they wouldn’t. I would not be able to live with myself, though, if there was a chance that someone needed help and I did nothing.
I think WorldOfMycroft knocked it out of the park.
Or hit it for six, in cricket parlance.
Hi, WorldOfMycroft, have a Welcome Package!
Ugh cricket. Really kittehs? 😛
Hey, at least cricket’s good for insomnia! 😀
Nah, golf is better for insomnia. Cricket is just terrible. (actually I don’t mind playing it, but when even the commentators are discussing seagulls rather than the game, well that says a hell of a lot)