Sometimes I hunt the misogyny, sometimes it wanders up right up to me and says hello.
Today’s post is an example of the latter. Below, a slightly edited comment that someone left for me this morning. It’s a response to a post of mine about a dreadful post on Return of Kings in which a fellow calling himself Billy Chubbs argued, with absolutely no evidence, that a recent high school shooter was driven to murder because of his “probable sexual frustration,” Chubbs went on to argue that young women are “selfish” because they don’t have sex with guys they’re not attracted to.
Anyway, my new commenter – posting under the name “whogoesthere?” – thinks that I and the other commenters here were being too hard on Chubbs’ “very good argument.” And so he deposited this giant rant, which in many ways is even scarier than Chubbs’ original.
He’s a tad verbose, so I’ve trimmed out some stuff that isn’t relevant to his general, er, thesis. And I’ve also taken the liberty of adding a few paragraph breaks and bolding a few of the best (i.e. worst) bits.
When men don’t get the women they want they turn to violence.
Not a good start here, because this just isn’t true. In this case, the phrase “not all men” is, for once, appropriate. Most men don’t get violent when they’re turned down.
This is established all over the animal kingdom and offers a good example about how it applies to humans, that snotty girls who keep their sexual treasures to all but a few males cause the remaining males to snap. …
Animals do all sorts of things that humans don’t do, and we can’t always learn from their behavior or assume that it relates to our own lives.
Or maybe the Evo Psych crew is just looking at the wrong animals. When banana slugs can’t find a partner to have sex with, they simply fertilize themselves. There’s a lesson here, I think, for the angry incels of the world: you can’t always get what you want, and when you can’t, sex with yourself is better than murder.
High school is a massively sexually charged winner take all environment. … Today’s high school is basically an ongoing audition for a porno video and the guys and girls who don’t make the cut can only sit at home and masturbate.
wat
It’s demeaning and hits a major blow to a person’s sexual identity to not be invited to frolic with the beautiful people.
Somehow most people, regardless of gender, manage to survive even if they’re not frolicking with Charlize Theron and/or Channing Tatum.
I’m sorry but almost no men go on wild shooting rampages if they have a beautiful female in their keep.
In their keep?! Also, no. Charles Manson was surrounded by beautiful young women. Yet he orchestrated multiple grisly murders.
The only guys that do so are bank robbers and thieves, generally guys at a later stage of life more fixated on money.
wat
Human beings naturally assess the amount of sex going around them and judge themselves in relationship to the amount and type of sex others are getting.
You know, you can’t actually tell how much and what kind of sex someone is having just by looking at them. Yes, there will always be people in the world having more sex with you. And some of these people are having sex with people you would probably like to have sex with. There are also people who are smarter than you, funnier than you, who can play chess or kickbox better than you, who have hundreds or thousands of times more money than you do.
That’s life. Life isn’t fair.
This makes sense because from a reproductive standpoint sex is coveted, and sex with beautiful thin, young women are the most coveted. Being the first to spoil these young women sexually is viewed reproductively as a guarantee of parentage, thus this is why males instinctively covet and burn with passion for these females.
Ah, yes, it was only a matter of time until the creepy pedo-justifying Evo Psych assfacts made their appearance. Not all men “burn with passion” in their pants for virginal high school girls.
This is why we have “morality” which is in its essence is a promise not to flaunt or indulge in sex moreso than the lowest man or woman in your tribe. This is what is meant when people say “morality went out the window.” They mean someone with more sexual prowess is openly indulging in sex and broadcasting it to stimulate the jealousy of the underclasses.
I’m pretty sure that’s not what people mean when they say “morality went out the window.”
This teen killed people cause he thought that beautiful girls were out of reach. The high school environment merely rubbed it in his face. Yes drugs to treat ADD might’ve eroded many of the impulse control functions in the teen, but the rage against the high school was still the gasoline.
[citation needed]
He might’ve had a picture or two taken with a girl next to him, but oftentimes those high school girls lie and simply eat up the male’s offerings without granting sexual access, but grant it to a random stud.
How dare young women choose who to have sex with, and who not to!
I’m not saying the girl he killed deserved it, it’s only that when you are in that frame of mind you cannot tell who is having more sex than others and you simply fill in the gaps with rage.
Wait, so if she had turned him down he would have been justified in killing her?
The beautiful girl simply represented everything that the teen couldn’t get. The steady love and wild sex of a valuable young girl.
Yeah, I think you’re confusing high school with porn again. His rampage lasted roughly a minute and a half. He shot her because she was there.
All the other theories posted on this site seem comical, self-righteous and weirdly off-point. It’s like you’re assessing the situation as an asexual senior citizen or righteous prude.
Not a lot of “prudes” here. Just people who find the “women need to have sex with ‘nice guys’ or these ‘nice gys’ will kill you all” to be a somewhat problematic argument.
Generally men want sex with young thin beauties who validate their existence.
Some men do. But most men, among those who are sexually attracted to women, aren’t as neurotically fixated on this small slice of the female demographic – women in their teens and early twenties who are somehow both virginal and sexually “wild” – as manosphere men seem to be. And most people don’t base their entire self-worth on whether or not they’re having sex with beautiful people.
Some men prefer women older than them. Some like women who are fat. Plenty of men don’t fixate on a particular physical type and are attracted to all sorts of different women. Believe it or not, whogoesthere, there are lots of men who are more interested in what’s in a woman’s head than they are in whether or not she matches up with some particular checklist of physical attributes.
If society removes all of the social pathways to attaining such a beauty, such as making prostitution illegal, increasing shame for men who seek sex, rewarding females and males called manginas who identify and mock the sex seekers and so on… this will lead to depression in men and all of the behaviors surrounding it, including shootings. Sounds pretty much like a logical line of reasoning to me.
And that’s the problem. It’s not actually a logical line of reasoning at all. It’s more like a sort of blackmail.
Men don’t kill women because they can’t have “the steady love and wild sex of a valuable young girl.” Sometimes men kill women because they feel entitled to have sex with these “valuable young girls” and become bitter and enraged when they can’t find a “valuable young girl” who agrees with them on this particular point.
It’s not the lack of “sexual access” that’s the problem. It’s the notion that your desire for “sexual access” means more than the right of that person to say “no.” It’s the notion that society has done you wrong because you can’t (at least at the moment) get laid. It’s the idea that your desire to have sex with a particular kind of woman somehow trumps the right of other people to live.
I mean, what the fucking fuck.
Oh, by the way, there’s no evidence that the shooter in question – Karl Halverson Pierson – was motivated by sexual frustration. His intended target was the school librarian, who is also the school’s debate coach. Pierson was obsessed with debate, and had some sort of grudge against the coach.
@Unimaginative
My favourite book ever is a romance. It’s also classified as fantasy, but the primary storyline is romantic. I got it from a bargain bin and it was the best dollar I ever spent. I’ve read it so many times and every time I look forward to the ending.
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/29143.Taming_the_Forest_King
@undfreeland – I really didn’t think you’d be interested. I’m sorry, I misjudged you on that one.
The short version above is basically what I wrote before; I also took some space to mention how a few right-wing and religious organizations have decided to switch their focus from defeating gay rights to undermining reproductive choice. Those groups need something to whip their bases into a voting frenzy. I then got into how the conservatives at the present moment have a great many deep-pocket donors behind, coffers that are even wider open thanks to Citizen’s United and the recent removal of donation caps, and about twenty years’ entrenched power on the state level in quite a few places in the Deep South (otherwise how would they get on the committees to redraw electoral maps?). Taking all that into account, I think they’ll be able to resist the demographic shifts for quite a while, and that abortion rights and even contraceptive access will continue to be chipped away piece by piece until something comes to a head.
I’m not sure how to stop the bleeding either, besides crossing my fingers and hoping things shake out well in the presidential election and that certain Supreme Court justices choose to retire in the *very* near future.
RE: Argenti
send Mac over here, he needs to know that I have a thing for redheads!
I don’t know… he might be a bit tanky for you… 😉 But he is a very sincere flirter! (Part of why it’s so effective; I’d never had someone honestly compliment my eyes before and apparently even the most defensively macho guy can melt for that shit.)
RE: scott1139
I really need to read some of her books…
Yes you do. Bell Hooks is a savvy woman, and also one of the most accessible writers on her subjects I’ve read. I like her!
RE: undfreeland
I also do like to go out drinking.
OH GOD YOU’RE ALFIE AREN’T YOU? That or my brother. Please don’t be my brother.
RE: Isabelle
One of my favorite author, Alan Moore, has been the object of lots of controversy.
Ohhhh lord. *bites tongue* I have Professional and Personal Feelings about the USA comics industry, but I will hold back or I’ll start bloviating like undfreeland over there.
RE: emilygoddess
Aw. <3 Is it weird if I ship you guys?
You would not be the first. I can accept this. (Hubby is also continuing being wonderful despite me having still no appetite for food and plus horrible nightmares last night. Bleh, fucking brain.)
There are two kinds of people: People who ship Rogan and Mac and people who don’t ship them because they want to hook up with Mac.
WWTH, thank you.
You think rapport is only about fucking? Seriously, how do you ever make any friends? Also, has it occurred to you that women might very well like an unsexual vibe from a man? Whatever a “sexual persona” might be, it sounds like something I’d want to get away from, fast. What makes you think a woman happily engaged in talking about a subject of mutual interest necessarily wants sex intruding into the conversation? If anything, that makes it bleeding obvious the guy’s NOT interested in her, or the subject, he’s only interested in fucking. And that makes him 1) uninteresting and 2) a skeevy wannabe predator, especially if they’re barely acquainted.
Sex doesn’t have to derive from instant physical attraction, y’know. Heaps of people are friends long before they’re lovers. Heaps of people stay friends and never become lovers and are happy and enriched, because fucking really isn’t all there is to life.
Romance for dermatologists!
::looks up meaning of ship in this context::
Ah! Count me in the first category.
RE: katz
There are two kinds of people: People who ship Rogan and Mac and people who don’t ship them because they want to hook up with Mac.
You actually made me laugh today, which I didn’t think was possible. (Nothing’s wrong, just nightmares and brain chugging along doing stuff in the background slowing me down.) May I repost this upon tumblr?
RE: Kittehs
Sex doesn’t have to derive from instant physical attraction, y’know.
No kidding. I didn’t feel attracted to my husband till I’d known him for a couple months! He took even longer!
LBT, yeah, and people can know each other for years before they get physically attracted. Or – shock horror – the physical attraction can come about as a result of liking/developing affection for/falling in love with the other person. The body becomes attractive because of who it houses.
Undiesonhishead wouldn’t believe such an heretical notion, of course.
@Kim, Sold! Um, as soon as I track down a legal copy of the ebook.
@Flying Mouse
“I also took some space to mention how a few right-wing and religious organizations have decided to switch their focus from defeating gay rights to undermining reproductive choice. Those groups need something to whip their bases into a voting frenzy.”
Have you seen the documentary “The Mormon Proposition”? That is one of the best doc about ‘real politik” that I ever watched. I have still not seen “the Case against 8” so I cant comment.
Und — what FM, today’s decision? I’ve come to expect that shit and hope to be wrong. I’m not gonna hold my breath. With the current situation, under a democrat, I do NOT want to ponder what will happen to a repub wins the next presidency.
LBT — yeah, maybe a bit tanky, but I hear he makes up for it by being a sweetheart.
Wow
*what FM said, and today’s decision?
RE: Kittehs
The body becomes attractive because of who it houses.
Yes, indeed! And now because of hubby, he’s basically influenced my tastes in men for life.
RE: Argenti
Also really awful penis puns. But it’s a feature, not a bug, right?
Oh, also, a friend of mine is trying to signalboost, so I link this guy to my fellow Mammoths! He is apparently a cool guy with cool things to say about robots, social justice, and various thinky thoughts. Maybe he’s y’all’s cup of tea?
No, I haven’t! I just looked it up, and it looks like it will inform and infuriate me. I’ll have to save it for a Friday so that I can watch it with an adult beverage and rant accordingly.
There are times when I think that church involvement in politics may be the thing that drives me from live-and-let-live agnostic straight into anti-theist. One of the larger cities in my area tried to pass a human rights ordinance a few years back; it was the standard stuff, mainly prevented people from discriminating based on sexual preference or gender identity. It went down by a narrow margin in the city council. The following Sunday, one of the largest churches in the town invited all of the council members who had voted down the bill to their main service, praised the council members’ commitment to religious freedom, and then had them stand as their names were called and receive a thunderous round of applause. Being Christ-like, what’s that all about again?
Ugh. I hope that I didn’t offend anyone who’s religious. Churchgoers do a tremendous amount of good in the world; most of the charities in my area are faith-based, and their people do remarkable things. And I know all churches themselves aren’t like that. But far too many – including my old one, from a supposedly liberal denomination – are.
Anyone want to guess what type of people are fun to hang out with, even if they look awful?
People who actually have fun.
Mom and dad story: My mom literally married the first single man she met in Alaska.
But… They knew era bother for a good three months — worked together on a volunteer ambulance crew, even! — before my mom sat down and realized that she really, really enjoyed his company. She then decided that she could consider him kind of cute.
Then, she asked him out.
Thing about my dad: his face really reminds me of an albino raven. His hair was brown when she met him, so maybe she saw a dusty albino raven. He’s not tall, more medium. Taller than me! But I’m short.
He’s not the handsomest bloke.
As they’ve become lighter haired and lightly wrinkled together, mom’s decided he’s the most handsome man in the world. When she first saw him? Cute would be charitable.
But, he’s got an awesome laugh, he smiles easily, he has a great sense of humor. He loves building and designing things — even though, as an engineer, he hold architects in high disdain — and they can spend hours just talking.
They share music in common. He plays bass, her guitar. They started a band. Since grandpa was a preacher, they ended every one of their early gigs with mom singing “Son of a Preacher Man”.
They be awesome together, because they have fun together.
My mom was very pretty. Dad still insists she’s beautiful, even though her eyes have hooded, her jaw has some extra skin, and her hair has streaks of silver. He dislikes the rare times when she wears makeup, because he loves her face, wrinkles and all. She hates makeup herself, so all’s win!
They’re adorable together.
He has a pointy jaw, usually scruffy. No square jaws in this family! Yet.
Contrapangloss, combined squees and fistpumps here for your parents!
Anyone starting to think undiesonhishead is an A? (That’s an AI that missed out on the intelligence bit. He’s got the artificial part covered.)
@Katz: You feel relaxed after playing Civ FOUR?
I find playing the “Rise from Erebus” mod on that both absorbing and relaxing. It’s got the pattern of incremental little rewards down to a fine addictive art – you slowly work towards your goal, unleash your forces in a glorious mad bloodfest on the opponent – and then notice that the world is, literally, going all to hell, complete with deserts of lava marching towards your borders 8-(
Und,
You know your “friend” is dishonest and insincere and into posturing an toxic masculinity that says all men are in competition like you are, but you believe him when he says he’s got a bang’n sex life?
I bet you’d by a bridge from him too.
Also, “My friend is a phony and he says he get’s laid alot”, even if true, in no way means that people who are sincere do not have plenty of sex and they get the added benefit of actually liking the people they have sex with.
As to video games and socializing: Everyone, excluding me, in my household are gamers. Halo, Saint’s Row, Minecraft etc. are popular here. My daughter’s Xbox friends are as important to her as her local in the flesh friends. Her besty games. Her bf games. He was giving pointers to my youngest son today while they played together. My husband games with the kids. Gaming can be very social. It can be something families do together.
Gaming is wildly popular. If Und can’t find other people who share his interests, he just isn’t looking.
I don’t game but I am the one with the most problematic interests. My taste in books, music and film is not erudite and completely progressive. I may well one day outgrow those things but I haven’t yet.
Speaking of, You’re Next was great and it’s out in stores now. 😀
@weirwoodtreehugger : Any comment on Thunderfoot’s latest parody of Tropes vs Women (apart from the “he’s an asshole” everybody already knows)?
@Unimaginative
If you find one, let me know. I would like to have a back up digital copy in case I ever lose my hard copy.
And yet it turns out Und here doesn’t play sexist games. And my bf and i who are both feminists play a large variety of games, some of which have sexist elements. We are both aware they are problematic, but we will keep playing them until we have other options. It’s almost as if general trends can’t be used to make assumptions about individuals.
My responses here are not against critiques of video games. Only against assumptions made in ignorance especially when they villify me, my lovely bf and many of my friends.
All I am asking for is the same care taken when making generalisations about gamers as is given to any other group of people around here.
@contrapangloss, Your parents sound adorable. That was a very sweet story, and I’m glad I read it.
Justin: pecunium: To answer you. I am interested in all the facets of the question you presented regarding custodial parity. I was also interested in which facets you would tackle. I did not want to lead the witness. Please feel free to address any or all that you like.
Non-responsive.
One, you didn’t say you were interested in any aspects of the discussion. You posed an unanswerable yes or no question as if it were relevant; having loaded it with connotative language (female centric audience) implying there is a “correct” answer, and that the people here were going to get it wrong.
As to the “leading the witness” aspect of things, you failed. Yes no question do lead the witness. They are useful in a courtroom because individual lawyers aren’t interested in getting the truth, but in painting a picture which favors their client. As such the desire is to limit the response. so as to avoid introducing facts which run counter to the narrative interpretation beneficial to the story the attorney is trying to tell.
Futhermore how a yes/no pair is presented will influence the answer (your was worded in a way which, had the interrogotory been face to face, would tend to garner a yes response).
The question is still not able to be answered, as you have still failed to define your terms. which implies you aren’t asking in good faith. Reading your other comments/replies (even without your admission of trolling) makes this more apparent; which means any question you ask, which doesn’t have defined terms is probably being presented in such a way as to allow you to use it to declaim a lack of understanding/concern for something “important” or just an out right hostility to the male race.
Please feel free to address the reasons you 1: chose to engage classic trolling, 2: thought you were entitled to continue without let or hindrance, and 3: having admitted to doing a hurtful thing, knowingly; and with intent, you were surprised enough to attempt to shame people into allowing you to have the unfettered ability to do it again?
Having done that, feel free to explain why we should give a shit what you think; in light of your cavalier treatment of facts, asshole nature and inability to break comments into coherent elements; esp. in light of the less than coherent content.
The fuck… my browser just flipped windows when I went to paste from notebook. Off to the correct thread with me,
I haven’t seen anything that vilifies and generalizes gamers though. I’m just saying we shouldn’t kid ourselves about the sexism that’s rife in the industry. Although I’m only into games that most people would say don’t count as gaming (like solitaire, puzzles and tetris) I enjoy problematic things sometimes too. After all I’m a horror movie fan. But I look at the genre with a critical eye and don’t mind if other people find it too problematic to deal with.