Sometimes I hunt the misogyny, sometimes it wanders up right up to me and says hello.
Today’s post is an example of the latter. Below, a slightly edited comment that someone left for me this morning. It’s a response to a post of mine about a dreadful post on Return of Kings in which a fellow calling himself Billy Chubbs argued, with absolutely no evidence, that a recent high school shooter was driven to murder because of his “probable sexual frustration,” Chubbs went on to argue that young women are “selfish” because they don’t have sex with guys they’re not attracted to.
Anyway, my new commenter – posting under the name “whogoesthere?” – thinks that I and the other commenters here were being too hard on Chubbs’ “very good argument.” And so he deposited this giant rant, which in many ways is even scarier than Chubbs’ original.
He’s a tad verbose, so I’ve trimmed out some stuff that isn’t relevant to his general, er, thesis. And I’ve also taken the liberty of adding a few paragraph breaks and bolding a few of the best (i.e. worst) bits.
When men don’t get the women they want they turn to violence.
Not a good start here, because this just isn’t true. In this case, the phrase “not all men” is, for once, appropriate. Most men don’t get violent when they’re turned down.
This is established all over the animal kingdom and offers a good example about how it applies to humans, that snotty girls who keep their sexual treasures to all but a few males cause the remaining males to snap. …
Animals do all sorts of things that humans don’t do, and we can’t always learn from their behavior or assume that it relates to our own lives.
Or maybe the Evo Psych crew is just looking at the wrong animals. When banana slugs can’t find a partner to have sex with, they simply fertilize themselves. There’s a lesson here, I think, for the angry incels of the world: you can’t always get what you want, and when you can’t, sex with yourself is better than murder.
High school is a massively sexually charged winner take all environment. … Today’s high school is basically an ongoing audition for a porno video and the guys and girls who don’t make the cut can only sit at home and masturbate.
wat
It’s demeaning and hits a major blow to a person’s sexual identity to not be invited to frolic with the beautiful people.
Somehow most people, regardless of gender, manage to survive even if they’re not frolicking with Charlize Theron and/or Channing Tatum.
I’m sorry but almost no men go on wild shooting rampages if they have a beautiful female in their keep.
In their keep?! Also, no. Charles Manson was surrounded by beautiful young women. Yet he orchestrated multiple grisly murders.
The only guys that do so are bank robbers and thieves, generally guys at a later stage of life more fixated on money.
wat
Human beings naturally assess the amount of sex going around them and judge themselves in relationship to the amount and type of sex others are getting.
You know, you can’t actually tell how much and what kind of sex someone is having just by looking at them. Yes, there will always be people in the world having more sex with you. And some of these people are having sex with people you would probably like to have sex with. There are also people who are smarter than you, funnier than you, who can play chess or kickbox better than you, who have hundreds or thousands of times more money than you do.
That’s life. Life isn’t fair.
This makes sense because from a reproductive standpoint sex is coveted, and sex with beautiful thin, young women are the most coveted. Being the first to spoil these young women sexually is viewed reproductively as a guarantee of parentage, thus this is why males instinctively covet and burn with passion for these females.
Ah, yes, it was only a matter of time until the creepy pedo-justifying Evo Psych assfacts made their appearance. Not all men “burn with passion” in their pants for virginal high school girls.
This is why we have “morality” which is in its essence is a promise not to flaunt or indulge in sex moreso than the lowest man or woman in your tribe. This is what is meant when people say “morality went out the window.” They mean someone with more sexual prowess is openly indulging in sex and broadcasting it to stimulate the jealousy of the underclasses.
I’m pretty sure that’s not what people mean when they say “morality went out the window.”
This teen killed people cause he thought that beautiful girls were out of reach. The high school environment merely rubbed it in his face. Yes drugs to treat ADD might’ve eroded many of the impulse control functions in the teen, but the rage against the high school was still the gasoline.
[citation needed]
He might’ve had a picture or two taken with a girl next to him, but oftentimes those high school girls lie and simply eat up the male’s offerings without granting sexual access, but grant it to a random stud.
How dare young women choose who to have sex with, and who not to!
I’m not saying the girl he killed deserved it, it’s only that when you are in that frame of mind you cannot tell who is having more sex than others and you simply fill in the gaps with rage.
Wait, so if she had turned him down he would have been justified in killing her?
The beautiful girl simply represented everything that the teen couldn’t get. The steady love and wild sex of a valuable young girl.
Yeah, I think you’re confusing high school with porn again. His rampage lasted roughly a minute and a half. He shot her because she was there.
All the other theories posted on this site seem comical, self-righteous and weirdly off-point. It’s like you’re assessing the situation as an asexual senior citizen or righteous prude.
Not a lot of “prudes” here. Just people who find the “women need to have sex with ‘nice guys’ or these ‘nice gys’ will kill you all” to be a somewhat problematic argument.
Generally men want sex with young thin beauties who validate their existence.
Some men do. But most men, among those who are sexually attracted to women, aren’t as neurotically fixated on this small slice of the female demographic – women in their teens and early twenties who are somehow both virginal and sexually “wild” – as manosphere men seem to be. And most people don’t base their entire self-worth on whether or not they’re having sex with beautiful people.
Some men prefer women older than them. Some like women who are fat. Plenty of men don’t fixate on a particular physical type and are attracted to all sorts of different women. Believe it or not, whogoesthere, there are lots of men who are more interested in what’s in a woman’s head than they are in whether or not she matches up with some particular checklist of physical attributes.
If society removes all of the social pathways to attaining such a beauty, such as making prostitution illegal, increasing shame for men who seek sex, rewarding females and males called manginas who identify and mock the sex seekers and so on… this will lead to depression in men and all of the behaviors surrounding it, including shootings. Sounds pretty much like a logical line of reasoning to me.
And that’s the problem. It’s not actually a logical line of reasoning at all. It’s more like a sort of blackmail.
Men don’t kill women because they can’t have “the steady love and wild sex of a valuable young girl.” Sometimes men kill women because they feel entitled to have sex with these “valuable young girls” and become bitter and enraged when they can’t find a “valuable young girl” who agrees with them on this particular point.
It’s not the lack of “sexual access” that’s the problem. It’s the notion that your desire for “sexual access” means more than the right of that person to say “no.” It’s the notion that society has done you wrong because you can’t (at least at the moment) get laid. It’s the idea that your desire to have sex with a particular kind of woman somehow trumps the right of other people to live.
I mean, what the fucking fuck.
Oh, by the way, there’s no evidence that the shooter in question – Karl Halverson Pierson – was motivated by sexual frustration. His intended target was the school librarian, who is also the school’s debate coach. Pierson was obsessed with debate, and had some sort of grudge against the coach.
katz,
It’s so telling that he’s tried to tell us all that we’re either eating sour grapes or lying about having grapes at all. He’s in a pitiful state and determined to stay there.
Hopefully he’ll pull himself out of this nose dive before he kills himself.
Do you think he actually thinks he’s a wise philosopher with his, “If I can’t get rich quick and score a 10 by 40, I’ll eat a bullet” mentality? He’s not smart, but I don’t think he’s so dim that suicide over not getting everything he wants in life quick and easy sounds wise. I think he knows exactly how frightened and intimidated by life that makes him. I think he knows he’s not cut out for anything more than sponging off his family and converting vodka to pee.
He’s like a parasite, looking for a woman to leech validation and meaning off of. When we suggest he find them himself, he nearly has a tantrum.
He’s been read from cover to cover and he knows it.
I bet after all this time, he still can’t stick the flounce.
He’s too hungry for attention.
Thanks wwth, I missed that.
I guessed much younger too.
I’ve got multiple sexual partners who are all fine with the arrangement. Have had for the last three years, though not the identical set.
I’ve waltzed with a girl at a Valentine’s dance. She’s brilliant and beautiful and deadlier with bow or sword than I will ever be. We stood outside the main circle, where there was more room, and kissed at every balance.
I’ve spent a week running theatres with my boyfriend at the Edinburgh Fringe. We did late shifts together and then went to find pie and cabaret when our venues shut for the night. He’s balding, fat, uneducated, and been married for ten years. Lovely man. I don’t see him nearly enough; geography interferes.
My current lover – not to be confused with said boyfriend – is going to Thailand for a month for work. I was hoping to visit before he left, but the dates for moved forward. No matter. He’ll be able to make it to the next LARP event this way. Tentsex!
There’s someone I’m mutually interested in, but apart from one date, geography has meant we’ve agreed to keep things potential for now. I discovered this attraction was mutual at a New Year club night, which I was attending with my lover. He was very amused by me being all “I totally pulled!” on the way home.
Polyamory! It’s a thing! We once tried to draw the relationship diagram and concluded we were going to need a bigger piece of paper!
Lea, so glad I’m not the only one.
Speaking of babies and “questionably shitty things that are more fun than troll boy’s ever had,” I was too slow putting a fresh diaper on my son when he was very small and got a bit of a shower. It was ok because I cleaned off fast and my son is totally worth a bit of ick factor
Well this is interesting
http://io9.com/psychologists-find-that-nice-people-are-more-likely-to-1597267257
Mammotheer meanies 1
Nice Guys 0
We really are better people!
Oh yeah, and you’ve got multiple sex partners who are perfectly okay with the arrangement. And an adoring, beautiful wife. And a number of hobbies impossible to maintain with a full time job. And I”m the one lying about my life.
Who said I have a full time job? Also, where did I say I have the time to indulge all of them regularly? I’ve not been on a horse in a couple of years. I manage to get just enough time on the motorcycle to not lose my edge, but it’s a far cry from when I did an 8,000 mile trip over the course of two months.
Where I live now there isn’t the room for archery, and all my rifle work is dry fire. But guess what… by having more hobbies, and interests, than I can maintain, I never have to worry there isn’t anything worth doing.
As to the rest.. as we saw earlier, it’s known you have a failure of imagination.
This guy is an admitted torturer for Western Capitalism, and yet you accept him amongst your ranks. As long as he toes the party line, right?
Now, now, don’t strain yourself, but please be so kind as to show where, anywhere, at any time, in any way, I have, “admitted” to torturing anyone? I don’t even mean explicitly, but by more than tendentious inference that being ‘x’ = ‘y’. Go on, I dare ya’. The Entire internet is at your disposal. The only caveat… you have to use my words, and link back to them. My detractors don’t count (in part because some of them are dishonest, and pretend to quote things written in non-internet fora to “prove” I am inconsistent/lying about the efficacy of torture. But I digress). My words, with links for context.
You can’t do it, because I’ve not done it. The reason being that I’ve not tortured anyone. Thankfully it doesn’t work, which means there isn’t even the question of means and ends.
Because, son, when I was offered the job, I looked into it. Being a moral person I investigated not only what the job entailed, but what the US Army policy was on the matter, and why. So, as it was not only not policy, but culturally antithetical to the discipline, I accepted the MOS. I did the job well. I taught it well. I helped set the tone for my unit (and a fair number of interrogators who went to other units).
I took part in investigation of alleged abuses.
I recognize that what you have done is necessary to maintain our way of life, but you are not a good person§ just because you can rationalize it to yourself.
Yeah, I’ve seen that before too, the accusatory, “Thank you for your service”. You can keep it. I didn’t do it for you. I did it because I felt like it. I kept doing it (see above the whole, “not a full time job thing) because I enjoyed it.
Oh so now you want to brag about having more sex partners than me. How feminist! Jesus.
Nope. I said that to poke you, because it pleases me to mock you. For all you know, I only got into double digits last month, or I might have done it before I was 20. The real point is that, for all you care, it doesn’t matter.
I am having the sex I like, with people I like. It is, as you say, bliss.
I saved this for last (though I clipped the fatuous attempt at insult. If you want to land a dig, you need to find something which is 1: true, and 2: original. Good luck with that).
The core of your contention is true. The problem is you don’t know what “the party line is”. I’d wager you think it’s something like, “men suck, women are great”.
It’s not. It’s, “women are people too”. There is a bit of, “treat people well”, but the important part is, “women are people too.” Since I believe that, and live my life by it, I’m accepted. If I didn’t, well then they’d be right to kick me out.
Same thing, BTW, with torture. I’d expect my friends to be (at the very least) disappointed if I were ever to cross that line. I’d not blame them if they disowned me. Because doing that is beyond the pale. I would even understand if they shunned me completely.
And it’s not as if we don’t do that to people. We had a regular, moderately contentious,but basically on the right side of things. Except it turned out she had no problem with prison rape. Thought it was hunky-dory, and kind of funny.
She isn’t here any longer. Because we actively shunned her.
Same goes for any of us. Intolerance of things which aren’t actively hurting others will get you shunned. Treating people as objects will get you shunned.
Being a human being, with flaws, and quirks, and the like, not a problem.
Seeing women as things, and prizes, and somewhat less than fully human…? That’s gonna get some pushback; as you have discovered.
*Kudos, btw (credit where credit is due) for not screwing up toe(s) the line.
§And really, you are impugning my morals? You’re waiting to start your life until your relatives die, so you can feast on the carcass of the wealth they collected. You moan that your father, whom we are assured can afford it, isn’t paying your way.
All of this is, so you tell us, the reason you aren’t making time with the “hotties” you deserve.
We once tried to draw the relationship diagram and concluded we were going to need a bigger piece of paper!
Friends/acquaintances of mine (it was a large group) some … wow.. 40 years ago, tried to map the relationships. It was a largish group, and quite interactive. It required three dimensions (though these days it’s possible the intel-analysis tool called a “link-diagram” [which charts the inter-relationships of an activities timeline, and an association matrix to make a schematic chart of how they coincide, might be able to cope with it).
So they made it with tinkertoys. It ended up being about a cubic yard.
So it’s not like poly is new. Heck, Clarence Darrow and Edna St. Vincent Millay were both practitioners of “free love” (though not with each other… there being some difference in their ages, and he dead before she was adult).
@Buttercup:
… Thanks for the words of encouragement.
I think we had about twenty people, not enough kinds of line, several closed loops and two trans-atlantic leaps when we gave up. Partly it was lack of information; we knew our own partners, and our partners’ partners, but one of those transatlantic people was my lover’s lover’s partner’s girlfriend, and I had no information on whether she had other partners.
duckbunny: This was a community which knew each other fairly well (and has been together; in the format which the map was devised) since 1976. It’s kind of like WHTM, but on paper, and with a closed membership.
^This!
I know the summer food discussion was a few pages ago, but LBT, here’s my favorite recipe for cold sesame noodles courtesy of Appetite For China. I ended up making it with these soba/yam noodles I found (the local Stop & Shop doesn’t have a lot of Asian foodstuffs), and it was hella tasty, but any noodle you like will probably be delicious.
More to the point, how many of those 13 voluntarily came back for more?
It’s not the quantity that matters (like Argenti, I haven’t notched up that many), it’s the quality. I’ve had a grand total of four sexual partners since I hit 25, but the shortest of those relationships lasted eighteen months and the longest has been going since 2001.
@pecunium, I did not thank you for you service. Merely acknowledged it’s necessity. I have no delusions about the mercenary nature of the armed forces.
Anyway
1. Ethiopian girl studying Japanese. When I was 20. Hooked up a few times when drunk. She stopped it because I had feelings for her
2. Art major. Dated girl for a few months. Left me to date a friend of mine. Didn’t work our for them.
3. Hyper-feminist. Dated for a while. Slept with a dude she met at pet’s mart and announced it on Facebook. Never talked to her after that.
4. Engineer chick, alcohol involved
5. Girl with army boyfriend, alcohol involved
6. Friend who came up to me at party and propositioned me. Alcohol involved
7. Girl I told to fuck off. We dated for two years and then she left me for a good friend. They are still together and very happy
8. PhD Sado-masochist girl
9. Girl I met at a part. Ignored me after second time we were going to hook up, probably cus I couldn’t get it up that time
10. Best friend of ex . Alcohol involved. Ex was quite upset when she found out.
11. unattractive women I met on okcupid. Was just a casual hooh-up
12. Same as 11
13. Unattractive woman I met on okcupid and kept around for a few months until I dumped her
And I’m guessing that, like me, you don’t give a flying fuck about your “notch count” since you’re happy with the sex you get. File that under “too bad Und is an idiot”.
Pecunium — again, you save me from screaming at the goddamned fool. Fucking NOBODY accuses you of torture in my presence without me telling them where to shove it (hint, as my Meems [grandmother, long story] would’ve put it, put it where the angel puts the tree)
Also, I’d like to get my ass handed to me if you can find padding for some judo or aikido, I am shamefully out of practice. Yeah, I know I should practice on cement, or at least grass, for a feel for practical use, but I don’t think either of our joints are up to that. I tripped on…Thursday? And my options were land on my knees or grab the fish tank, some primal part of my brain has encoded the latter as NEVER DO THAT!!…my knees are still mad at me!
As for hobbies…plants, so many plants! Oh, one of my eschevrias is going to flower! I’m so excited, I’ve never seen one do it before! The fishkins of course — the axolotl is very likely a go, I need to play with some DIY stuff, but I think I’ll have everything I need to house one once the 55g is cycled and I can steal some cultured media…then I need to get yet another tank so I can breed them — they’re nearly extinct in the wild, the species survives because they’re a model organism and obsessive aquarists like me adore them. The youngins tend to be cannibals though, so breeding them is far more awkward than breeding cories. Puzzles. So. Many. Puzzles. A 750 piece Mardi Gras is sitting in front of me, and a 2,000 piece Starry Night is over that way. Running the Borg (write things people! You’re worse slackers than me currently and I’m pretty fucking bad!). Did the BF’s company site after the professional proved to be an idiot, got roped into ongoing support since apparently being a computer scientist doesn’t mean you can work wordpress. Did I mention the fish? Because PUFF!!
Oh, and trying to stay sane, which is basically a full time job. One I should be engaging in as I slept until 6~ pm yesterday and have been up since. I need to get my minimum 4 hours in before it gets too late.
And cycling a tank? Organic chemistry. Fuck me. It’s not too bad once a tank is stable, but I’ve never done fishless cycling before and am wishing I’d just bought a few more tetras for the 29g and cycled the 55g with them.
Fun fact: big, bold and beautiful leopard slugs mate suspended in the air.
Undfreeland: You see how nobody else has listed their total count of sexual partners? I’ve come the closest and I gave an incomplete list intended to illustrate that polyamory is not mythical; it’s a bit crass but I didn’t think a dispassionate schematic would carry the same weight.
The reason is that the numbers aren’t important. The list is not the point. We’re not just saying that. It’s really, honestly, not the point.
Why do you think that happiness is impossible?
Again with the toeing the party line / hive mind bullshit.
People are accepted “among the ranks” in this community because they are liked, respected and/or have interesting ideas to bring to the debates, not because we all agree with each other and automatically reinforce everything any regular contributor says. There are heated debates among regulars all over this blog.
They are also because they are generally kind, supportive and interesting people who enjoy talking with each other and sometimes have similar interests and experiences (especially mocking misogyny & misogynists).
I am willing to bet that no two people here have identical interpretations of feminism or any other sort of political or social philosophy or ideology.
There is a loosely agreed upon code of conduct among regulars that is expected to be followed by new contributors, but even that is debated. (I am not talking about the things David has listed in the Comments Policy that are grounds for banning or moderation.)
We do not all shuffle in lock step, even in this very thread.
No one here called you out because your brand of feminism doesn’t mesh with theirs, it was (among many other reasons) because your statements and self described behaviors are in opposition to any interpretation of feminism and because you came across as generally unoriginal and unlikable to the majority of people here, whether or not you presented a genuine display of your personality and beliefs.
Oh, HTML fail….only “identical” was supposed to be in bold. Ass.
Look at him begging for asspats. I’m a real manly man whose opinion must be taken seriously! Check out my sexual history!
I remember the time when my friends and I would do shit like that, listing our conquests and comparing/showing off. We were in high school. a 25 year old doing the same? Pitiful.
*swoons over leopard slugs*
@Tracy
I used to visit an ex at UCSC and we’d take hikes to go see banana slugs. Some of them were HUGE.
Wow, you just keep getting shittier and shittier. The sad thing is that I don’t think you’re lulz trolling, I think this is really you. It would break my heart that someone could be this empty, but you seem fairly set in your lot, so I’ll save my pity for something a little more sympathetic, like streptococcus bacteria.
The “mercenary nature of the armed forces.” That’s just charming, especially since you seem to be placing the blame for their activities on the backs of the “mercenaries” themselves. My husband was a soldier for 21 years. You know what motivated him to join up? It wasn’t a desire to hurt people, or a gung-ho sense of loyalty to this, his adopted homeland. It was poverty. He was born poor, he was grew up poor, he was poor after his family emigrated here, and he was poor when he graduated high school. Not “dad-won’t-pay-for-college” poor. “Worked-odd-weekend-jobs-in-junior-high-to-help-Mom-make-rent” poor.” After he finished high school, his best option was the Army. The economy sucked in his hometown, and he didn’t have enough money to move. So he held up his right hand, swore the oath, and rolled the dice. This was back during the Reagan years, too, when for a while the Cold War looked like it might get hot. Yes, he made an informed choice. But what kind of a choice is it when all the alternatives are bad?
From what you’ve told us, the worst thing that’s ever happened to you is having to pay your own way as an adult. Oh, and not getting the right kind of girls, but I’m not even to touch that one for the moment. And you’re going to sit there, at your computer, smoking and drinking and counting down the days ’til you have money, and judge people who actually got off their ass and did something to change their lives? I’m not going to say something like “pecunium and my husband and thousands of other service members have fought for your freedom!” because that’s bullshit and I know it. Our foreign policy is horrible. But you don’t criticize the policy, you cast aspersions on the soldiers (aka, the armed forces). They signed up for it, the mission is bad, therefore they are immoral. And then you grandly acknowledge that their work is “necessary.” Much like how you find feminism “useful,” it now occurs to me.
And you know where this all goes. Back to capitalism. Our system as it stands makes it hard for someone in my husband’s situation to get to the top without a lot of help and opportunity. He had none, so he took other roads. It worked out for him; the training and experience from the Army got him where he is today. He’s got a good job, a house that should be paid off in a few years, a wife that should be making him dinner but instead is raging at an asshole on the internet, kids he’s wanted for years and now adores without qualification. That doesn’t erase his roots, though. That doesn’t excuse the fact that the oligarchs steer our foreign and domestic policy to their satisfaction and then the rank and file have to do the dirty work. And it doesn’t stop shits in ivory towers from judging the rank and file’s actions, real or imagined, and then either denigrating them or patronizing them as the shits please. Those shits may criticize the big welfare, crony capitalism, and wars-for-profit that personify the U.S. at this moment. But that doesn’t stop the shits from raking in the money from those big-welfare-receiving companies in capitalist financial markets..
All right, I think I’m ranted out. I’ll go back to making fun of you now, und. Back to our regularly scheduled program.
The new fixation on how unfair it is that pecunium is well-liked here and attempts to get us to change out mind about that is starting to feel a bit sock-ish, I’m just not sure quite which one it is (since pecunium, like me, is a troll magnet).
In case anyone is wondering, Mr. FM was magnificent in his uniform. Once he hit forty he had to take it off before he left work lest he cause riots among the high-quality women he encountered on his way home. A super-rich middle-aged player is an intoxicating sight by himself – but a super-rich middle-aged player in combat boots and digiflage…that’s just dangerous. I don’t even remember the first time I saw him wearing his dress uniform, because I promptly fainted from rapture. I woke up a week later and had to make it up to him by cooking seven days worth of breakfasts. He still can’t bear to look at waffles…