Sometimes I hunt the misogyny, sometimes it wanders up right up to me and says hello.
Today’s post is an example of the latter. Below, a slightly edited comment that someone left for me this morning. It’s a response to a post of mine about a dreadful post on Return of Kings in which a fellow calling himself Billy Chubbs argued, with absolutely no evidence, that a recent high school shooter was driven to murder because of his “probable sexual frustration,” Chubbs went on to argue that young women are “selfish” because they don’t have sex with guys they’re not attracted to.
Anyway, my new commenter – posting under the name “whogoesthere?” – thinks that I and the other commenters here were being too hard on Chubbs’ “very good argument.” And so he deposited this giant rant, which in many ways is even scarier than Chubbs’ original.
He’s a tad verbose, so I’ve trimmed out some stuff that isn’t relevant to his general, er, thesis. And I’ve also taken the liberty of adding a few paragraph breaks and bolding a few of the best (i.e. worst) bits.
When men don’t get the women they want they turn to violence.
Not a good start here, because this just isn’t true. In this case, the phrase “not all men” is, for once, appropriate. Most men don’t get violent when they’re turned down.
This is established all over the animal kingdom and offers a good example about how it applies to humans, that snotty girls who keep their sexual treasures to all but a few males cause the remaining males to snap. …
Animals do all sorts of things that humans don’t do, and we can’t always learn from their behavior or assume that it relates to our own lives.
Or maybe the Evo Psych crew is just looking at the wrong animals. When banana slugs can’t find a partner to have sex with, they simply fertilize themselves. There’s a lesson here, I think, for the angry incels of the world: you can’t always get what you want, and when you can’t, sex with yourself is better than murder.
High school is a massively sexually charged winner take all environment. … Today’s high school is basically an ongoing audition for a porno video and the guys and girls who don’t make the cut can only sit at home and masturbate.
wat
It’s demeaning and hits a major blow to a person’s sexual identity to not be invited to frolic with the beautiful people.
Somehow most people, regardless of gender, manage to survive even if they’re not frolicking with Charlize Theron and/or Channing Tatum.
I’m sorry but almost no men go on wild shooting rampages if they have a beautiful female in their keep.
In their keep?! Also, no. Charles Manson was surrounded by beautiful young women. Yet he orchestrated multiple grisly murders.
The only guys that do so are bank robbers and thieves, generally guys at a later stage of life more fixated on money.
wat
Human beings naturally assess the amount of sex going around them and judge themselves in relationship to the amount and type of sex others are getting.
You know, you can’t actually tell how much and what kind of sex someone is having just by looking at them. Yes, there will always be people in the world having more sex with you. And some of these people are having sex with people you would probably like to have sex with. There are also people who are smarter than you, funnier than you, who can play chess or kickbox better than you, who have hundreds or thousands of times more money than you do.
That’s life. Life isn’t fair.
This makes sense because from a reproductive standpoint sex is coveted, and sex with beautiful thin, young women are the most coveted. Being the first to spoil these young women sexually is viewed reproductively as a guarantee of parentage, thus this is why males instinctively covet and burn with passion for these females.
Ah, yes, it was only a matter of time until the creepy pedo-justifying Evo Psych assfacts made their appearance. Not all men “burn with passion” in their pants for virginal high school girls.
This is why we have “morality” which is in its essence is a promise not to flaunt or indulge in sex moreso than the lowest man or woman in your tribe. This is what is meant when people say “morality went out the window.” They mean someone with more sexual prowess is openly indulging in sex and broadcasting it to stimulate the jealousy of the underclasses.
I’m pretty sure that’s not what people mean when they say “morality went out the window.”
This teen killed people cause he thought that beautiful girls were out of reach. The high school environment merely rubbed it in his face. Yes drugs to treat ADD might’ve eroded many of the impulse control functions in the teen, but the rage against the high school was still the gasoline.
[citation needed]
He might’ve had a picture or two taken with a girl next to him, but oftentimes those high school girls lie and simply eat up the male’s offerings without granting sexual access, but grant it to a random stud.
How dare young women choose who to have sex with, and who not to!
I’m not saying the girl he killed deserved it, it’s only that when you are in that frame of mind you cannot tell who is having more sex than others and you simply fill in the gaps with rage.
Wait, so if she had turned him down he would have been justified in killing her?
The beautiful girl simply represented everything that the teen couldn’t get. The steady love and wild sex of a valuable young girl.
Yeah, I think you’re confusing high school with porn again. His rampage lasted roughly a minute and a half. He shot her because she was there.
All the other theories posted on this site seem comical, self-righteous and weirdly off-point. It’s like you’re assessing the situation as an asexual senior citizen or righteous prude.
Not a lot of “prudes” here. Just people who find the “women need to have sex with ‘nice guys’ or these ‘nice gys’ will kill you all” to be a somewhat problematic argument.
Generally men want sex with young thin beauties who validate their existence.
Some men do. But most men, among those who are sexually attracted to women, aren’t as neurotically fixated on this small slice of the female demographic – women in their teens and early twenties who are somehow both virginal and sexually “wild” – as manosphere men seem to be. And most people don’t base their entire self-worth on whether or not they’re having sex with beautiful people.
Some men prefer women older than them. Some like women who are fat. Plenty of men don’t fixate on a particular physical type and are attracted to all sorts of different women. Believe it or not, whogoesthere, there are lots of men who are more interested in what’s in a woman’s head than they are in whether or not she matches up with some particular checklist of physical attributes.
If society removes all of the social pathways to attaining such a beauty, such as making prostitution illegal, increasing shame for men who seek sex, rewarding females and males called manginas who identify and mock the sex seekers and so on… this will lead to depression in men and all of the behaviors surrounding it, including shootings. Sounds pretty much like a logical line of reasoning to me.
And that’s the problem. It’s not actually a logical line of reasoning at all. It’s more like a sort of blackmail.
Men don’t kill women because they can’t have “the steady love and wild sex of a valuable young girl.” Sometimes men kill women because they feel entitled to have sex with these “valuable young girls” and become bitter and enraged when they can’t find a “valuable young girl” who agrees with them on this particular point.
It’s not the lack of “sexual access” that’s the problem. It’s the notion that your desire for “sexual access” means more than the right of that person to say “no.” It’s the notion that society has done you wrong because you can’t (at least at the moment) get laid. It’s the idea that your desire to have sex with a particular kind of woman somehow trumps the right of other people to live.
I mean, what the fucking fuck.
Oh, by the way, there’s no evidence that the shooter in question – Karl Halverson Pierson – was motivated by sexual frustration. His intended target was the school librarian, who is also the school’s debate coach. Pierson was obsessed with debate, and had some sort of grudge against the coach.
I haven’t caught up yet, but this part struck me. Holy Martini Drinking Hades, this is horrible. I can’t even fathom the complete lack of basic human empathy a person would have to posses to actually believe this.
I can’t even think of my cats and dogs as interchangeable, their personalities are too unique, let alone people! My mom cannot be replaced! My boyfriend cannot be replaced! This is disturbing.
Wow, three hundred new comments since I abruptly fell asleep last night. Can’t wait to see the fresh, innovative ideas that undfreeland undoubtedly bestowed upon our adoring community.
Also, everyone will be glad to know that despite my truncated sleep last night, I still managed to awaken before my husband’s alarm so that I could gaze upon him adoringly as roused himself from sleep. He still acts like it scares the shit out of him when he opens his eyes to find my face six inches from his, my eyes wide with wonder. You’d think he’d be used to it after ten years. He knows how seriously I take all the responsibilities that go along with being a quality woman.
Off to read now…
All the way back on comment page 16 (yikes!) :
@ piratejennie – FWIW I didn’t think you sounded like a jerk when you pointed out that the Rodger/Bateman thing had been done before. Credit where credit is due! And I’m totally with you on trying to learn when things are actually my fault and when it’s my highly-conditioned jerkbrain yanking my chain (in my case, I’m still sorting out an authoritarian upbringing). ::solidarity fistbump:: Glad things are getting better for you!
….
Oh, look, undfreeland is rehashing his dating history.
He sounds like such a thoughtful and attentive lover.
And he has friends, too!
Oh, man, Mr. FM could tell you that stuff gets even worse when you’re a super-rich middle-aged player. It’s so hard for women to keep their hands off a single guy in his forties, and so hard for men to say no to any unit from that interchangeable machine of pulchritude. At office parties he has to hold my hand at all times, just so that I won’t be lured away by a coworker at a higher paygrade (even though I’ve lost my twenty-something hottie status, I’m still usually one of the younger women at his work do’s, and any port in a storm, right?)
The nineties really were the best time for teenaged antisocial angst.
My wife thought I was doing that the other day, but I was actually trying to work out if she was still asleep or not without waking her up.
Anyway, she wasn’t flattered.
@Flying Mouse
You are seriously winning the thread 🙂
The only sort of person who thinks looks are all that matter during sex is a person who has never had amazing sex.
So, let’s dissect this dude’s life. Won’t that be fun?
Friends? He doesn’t have any. I don’t think he knows the meaning of the word.
Love? He’s never been in it ( and never will) and thinks it’s imaginary.
Family? People who do nothing but put each other down. He hope’s they’ll die so he can have their cash.
Commitment? He can’t fathom it. He has nothing to offer and therefore, nothing to stick around for. He certainly has no plan of being there for anyone else when the going get’s tough. He knows the first sign of a challenge will have him running for the hills. A hangnail is more than he could handle.
Sex? He hasn’t the foggiest about how to go about it. So he thinks of women as masturbatory aids.
Hobbies? He sits at home alone, is a creep online, drinks and smokes weed til he blacks out at his game console*. He is sure this path will lead him to great riches. If it doesn’t, he plans to do himself in because if life can’t be a self indulgent cake walk, he knows he’s too big of a titty-baby to hack it like the rest of us.
Ambition? Passion? Nonexistent. He thinks he’ll get rich quick and easy and the ladies will just flock to him. Anything more difficult than that, he can’t handle. (I’d bet dollars to doughnuts his mom and dad are still paying most of his bills.) Doing anything that doesn’t directly reward him is just not something he could understand doing.
This dude thinks he’s smart. He thinks he’s “realistic” rather than self deluded. He projects his wankerocity onto others and sounds like he’s quoting Ted Bundy when he talks about people’s words and behaviors being nothing but cover for what lies beneath. (Yep, I like reading a little criminal psych too.)
Mom and Dad did a bang up job on this kid. They somehow managed to instill no character at all in their kid. He shares the blame too, though. I know people who have survived horribly abusive families and grown up determined to be better people than the ones who raised them. Some parents can’t show you what to be, but they can show you what not to be. This entitled little toad only ever learned that people could be used and he’s fine with being a user.
He’s read some shitty philosophy and now he thinks selfish assholes are some kind of new phenomenon. He thinks Dorian Grey wannabes are some sort of new breed of enlightened ubermensch. I guess he thinks he’s invented being a spoiled, heartless brat, living in fear of his own mediocrity and impending middle age. I suppose every generation of brats do. I wonder if he’ll ever figure out how trite he is? not too bright, spoiled white het cis dudes who think too highly of themselves are a dime a dozen and they always have been.
I’d rather be locked in a room full of mosquitos than endure this babyman’s company. No wonder he has to buy affection. Most people would sooner cuddle a hagfish than him.
It’s funny that he thinks we actually believe he’s a regular reader here, when he he’s shown several times that he is unfamiliar with the site. I guess when you think you are a super smart special snowflake, you just assume everyone else is either as dim as you are or more so.
It’s Dunning Kruger all the way down.
*Not that there is anything wrong with drinking, toking and playing games, so long as they are not all you do with your life. Even Snoop Dog stops to record a song every now and then.
I want to publish an undfreeland Guide to Dating and Relationships. I am sure it would be an immediate bestseller. Look at the rough outline I’ve put together, just on the past couple of comment pages alone:
unfreeland on the Laws of Attraction:
“Men without money have a hard time getting laid by very attractive women.”
“Short men have trouble getting laid. Laid by attractive woman.”
“I don’t believe I ever used the words love. Or said anything about there being a ‘right girl.’ There are literally millions of girls in the world that could give me what I want.”
“Were I capable of pulling very attractive women with ease, I’m sure I’d view their bodies as just as interchangeable. After all, when watching porn, many of the women are interchangeable.”
“Everyone being interchangeable does not mean that they are the same. It just means that the emotions you feel for them, what they are as far as you are concerned, is contained within yourself, and can be repeated with anyone else who meets the correct criteria.”
unfreeland on Commitment
“I won’t fall into the pitfalls of marriag etc, so I’ll have more disposable income when I’m older.”
“I’m not naive enough to think about making a life with anybody. Whatever gender you’re into or whatever, other people will betray you. They will hold you back. They will obligate you financially.”
“Two years was too long. Unless I find an exceptionally attractive woman, the rest will all be shorter. I’ll do that until I can’t.”
unfreeland on Managing Friction Between Lovers and Family
“So the relationship I had for two years, the one that started with me telling her to fuck off and eventually she left me for a good friend, She came around my family a bunch. One of my brothers would make fun of stuff she said all the time. Didn’t bother me.”
“Brother > girlfriend. One’s going to be around a lot longer.”
When you aggregate everything like that, how you can not be blown away by the freshness of thought, the independence of spirit, the bold vision of this man? Female hypergamy, SMV, “bros (literally) before hos,” marital entrapment – all ideas that have never before been broached in any media form!
We’d better get ready for the onslaught. All the major literary agents and publishing houses will be storming the blog in a moment, all intent on representing this great innovator and bringing his wisdom to the world.
@Wetherby – Your wife wasn’t flattered? She was probably ashamed that she wasn’t the one who woke you up with her loving gaze. She’s lucky you’re all in Europe, where things are so much more progressive and easygoing.
@Kim – thanks!
@Lea – I kind of want to defend unfreeland’s parents – he’s whined several times about how his dad is making him *actually earn his keep, ugh* – but that’s probably my knee-jerk mommyness kicking in. You’re right that people don’t usually turn out like this without a little reinforcement at home.
One day, I came home from socialising on campus to find a stranger laying out his sleeping bag on my living room floor. He’d just had a rough breakup with someone he was living with and needed to get away for a while, so he’d called one of my housemates.
I made polite conversation while the kettle boiled for my bedtime cup of tea. Then I hung around drinking the tea. At some point we made another pot. Eight hours after I’d originally come home, we went to get breakfast on campus so we could keep talking.
He’s a friend. He’s my closest friend. He’s talked me through acutely dark times. I’ve been there to put him back together when he’s been doing crisis management for other people’s dark times. We’ve talked about sex and kink and religion and ethics and justice and protest methods and LARP and government and church. We’ve raided bins together and made each other go to the hospital.
That’s what friendship looks like. If you can’t see why you’d want that, I pity you.
Other people, i.e., society. Man, I could write a book about society, and how wonderful it all actually is. How filled it is with people who sacrifice and sweat for people they don’t even know.
People who volunteer endlessly. People who give and give and give.
Other people have done nothing for me except advance me. Help me financially. There’s been the occasional betrayal, but, people, man. People can be the BEST.
Never being serious =/= being funny and having a sense of humor. In fact people like that are tedious in off putting.
In addition to reminding me of Warren you are also like early ASOIAF Theon Greyjoy. He is described as arrogant, always smirking and joking. No POV characters like him or find him funny.
No you don’t. Men only care about looks, women are into money, and people are all as manipulative, shallow and uncaring me is an old, boring idea we’ve all heard boy. You sound like every other manospherian try as you might to deny it.
Hardly. Do you think we’ve never encountered a brogressive before?
Having progressive political views doesn’t give you a free pass to be an asshole.
duckbunny: You are awesome and should feel awesome. 🙂
Flying Mouse,
You’re right. I shouldn’t blame his parents as they aren’t here to represent themselves, but by the way he’s described his family, they sound like a nightmare. To be fair, he’s not a reliable source of information.
Who needs hot young Stalin when you can have young hot Teddy Roosevelt?
@WWTH
Also, “women are interchangeable bodies for making sex to but they should be allowed to earn an income or whatever” and “I don’t hate gay people” and “multisexual people are open-minded and should get head pats” don’t exactly fully encapsulate the political views of the commenters here.
He did have a flair for cultivating epic facial hair.
“Whatever gender you’re into or whatever, other people will betray you. They will hold you back. They will obligate you financially.”
“…Every gay dude is one less dude I’m competing with…”
Better be on you toes, bro. Evil eyes are watching your every move. Your best friends, are looking to snatch that HB7,5 from you this very moment! better find a way to out-jerk them before it’s too late!
You know what I really dislike about sel-fproclaimed “cynics” such as you? you think your cynisism somehow makes you more clever or wordly than other.people. News flash: It dosn’t. And your relationships don’t fail because everyone is untrustworthy, they fail because you’re paranoid and you assume the worst about everyone. It’s no Wonder women keep leaving you for other men.
“I have some pretty complex and you unique ideas…”
Okey, you’re now officially a lolcow. Also complex ideas =/= Black and White mentality. And I don’t think you’re a troll either, just an attentionwhoring Nice Guy.
I’m not caught up, and this is just the tip of the skeeze iceberg but Jesus Christ on a Pogostick!
“My grandfather is the closes of my wealthy relatives to dieing, but my grandmother will probably be around for a while, and she’s currently the sole beneficiary if he dies before her.”
“Too bad my grandmother’s healthy, else I’d get the old man’s money”
Combined with the comparison to serial killers, and the thinking everyone is interchangeable (hint dude, you’re more like serial killers than you want to admit)…somebody oughta alert his grandmother that she might wanna cut him out of the will for her own safety.
“You know what I really dislike about sel-fproclaimed “cynics” such as you? you think your cynisism somehow makes you more clever or wordly than other.people.”
I’m going to just leave this here:
“The trouble is that we have a habit, encouraged by pedants and sophisticates, of considering happiness as something rather stupid. Only pain is intellectual, only evil interesting. This is the treason of the artist: a refusal to admit the banality of evil and the terrible boredom of pain. If you can’t lick ’em, join ’em. If it hurts, repeat it. But to praise despair is to condemn delight, to embrace violence is to lose hold of everything else. ” -Ursula Guin
It’s that odd thing where people think that being open and emotional and trusting just makes you a sucker, and that it’s somehow superior to never care about anyone or anything. Same thing we saw when Roosh (IIRC) pretended he was in jail and then made fun of all his readers for believing him and being concerned about his welfare.
To quote the briefing materials of my favourite game (because I am just that geeky) on the subject of Loyalty:
It is more shameful to distrust your friends, than to be deceived by them.
People who can’t stop putting on a performance aren’t entertaining. They’re exhausting. I’ve known people like that. I’ve worked with kids like that. I call them snake charmers. Keeping all eyes on them is a way of controlling others and I see it often in kids who have been severely abused. They are either seeking praise or distraction, tearing something up or starting a fight. It isn’t on purpose. It’s a compulsion they don’t understand. Everything is a joke because if they ever took anything seriously, they’d have to admit that they sometimes fail or get disappointed. If they do fail or get disappointed it’s someone else’s fault because they don’t know how to process failure. Things other kids would shrug off, crush them. (Probably because some asshole told them they were worthless and any mistake makes them afraid it’s true.) They see all people as dangerous and disingenuous so they act accordingly. They are all going to be rich, talented and famous when they grow up. (Seriously, ALL of them.) Some will attempt to win over every single person they meet. Upon meeting them they will act as if you are the most special person they have ever laid eyes on, because if you love them, maybe you won’t hurt them. They don’t actually like you. They just see you as a threat to be neutralized. You’re at best a means to an end until they can unlearn what their abusers taught them.
My heart aches for kids like that. Sure, some of them will threaten you and some will do more than make threats, but they’re like puppies who learned to fight for every scrap of food they ever got. They’re lived experiences taught them certain coping mechanisms. They are helpless and frightened and just trying to survive. Given time, patience (sometimes medication and therapy) and structure, they can learn another way.
Nobody is ever so broken that they are hopeless. There will be scars and limps and recovery that goes on forever for some of us, but no one is hopeless. Hopelessness is a lie jerkbrains tell us so we won’t try.
Children don’t have a choice. Adults shape their world. Adults with can choose to find a better way.
Unfreeland has chosen to stay a snake charmer who sees people as a means to an end. That won’t pan out well for him. I guarantee.
Oh hey, we’re having the hot historical figures conversation? Allow me to spam the thread with Annemarie Schwarzenbach pictures. Androgyny is sexy.
Skye:
QFT.
What strikes me, beyond the “holy shit is this guy a creepy asshole with absolutely no empathy,” is how undfreeland seems to think he’s got life all figured out, but it’s blatantly apparent how miserable his life is. I mean, he sits at home and gets drunk and high watching cartoons* while waiting for his grandparents to die so he can inherit their money and for some beautiful woman (who’s completely interchangeable with every other woman) to come worship at his feet so he can feel something akin to happiness. At the same time, he derides all the other commentators here for being old fogeys who “settled” for unattractive partners and for leading lives of bland and unenlightened ordinariness. Although it is very apparent that the commentators undfreeland has contempt appear to be leading much fuller and better lives than he himself is.
And women are all interchangeable. And he’s a feminist.
Yeesh.
*Not that there really is anything wrong with smoking weed, drinking vodka and watching cartoons, if that’s what one enjoys doing, but to also expect to accomplish things and find sexual partners while putting so little effort into doing either is, well, completely ridiculous.