Sometimes I hunt the misogyny, sometimes it wanders up right up to me and says hello.
Today’s post is an example of the latter. Below, a slightly edited comment that someone left for me this morning. It’s a response to a post of mine about a dreadful post on Return of Kings in which a fellow calling himself Billy Chubbs argued, with absolutely no evidence, that a recent high school shooter was driven to murder because of his “probable sexual frustration,” Chubbs went on to argue that young women are “selfish” because they don’t have sex with guys they’re not attracted to.
Anyway, my new commenter – posting under the name “whogoesthere?” – thinks that I and the other commenters here were being too hard on Chubbs’ “very good argument.” And so he deposited this giant rant, which in many ways is even scarier than Chubbs’ original.
He’s a tad verbose, so I’ve trimmed out some stuff that isn’t relevant to his general, er, thesis. And I’ve also taken the liberty of adding a few paragraph breaks and bolding a few of the best (i.e. worst) bits.
When men don’t get the women they want they turn to violence.
Not a good start here, because this just isn’t true. In this case, the phrase “not all men” is, for once, appropriate. Most men don’t get violent when they’re turned down.
This is established all over the animal kingdom and offers a good example about how it applies to humans, that snotty girls who keep their sexual treasures to all but a few males cause the remaining males to snap. …
Animals do all sorts of things that humans don’t do, and we can’t always learn from their behavior or assume that it relates to our own lives.
Or maybe the Evo Psych crew is just looking at the wrong animals. When banana slugs can’t find a partner to have sex with, they simply fertilize themselves. There’s a lesson here, I think, for the angry incels of the world: you can’t always get what you want, and when you can’t, sex with yourself is better than murder.
High school is a massively sexually charged winner take all environment. … Today’s high school is basically an ongoing audition for a porno video and the guys and girls who don’t make the cut can only sit at home and masturbate.
wat
It’s demeaning and hits a major blow to a person’s sexual identity to not be invited to frolic with the beautiful people.
Somehow most people, regardless of gender, manage to survive even if they’re not frolicking with Charlize Theron and/or Channing Tatum.
I’m sorry but almost no men go on wild shooting rampages if they have a beautiful female in their keep.
In their keep?! Also, no. Charles Manson was surrounded by beautiful young women. Yet he orchestrated multiple grisly murders.
The only guys that do so are bank robbers and thieves, generally guys at a later stage of life more fixated on money.
wat
Human beings naturally assess the amount of sex going around them and judge themselves in relationship to the amount and type of sex others are getting.
You know, you can’t actually tell how much and what kind of sex someone is having just by looking at them. Yes, there will always be people in the world having more sex with you. And some of these people are having sex with people you would probably like to have sex with. There are also people who are smarter than you, funnier than you, who can play chess or kickbox better than you, who have hundreds or thousands of times more money than you do.
That’s life. Life isn’t fair.
This makes sense because from a reproductive standpoint sex is coveted, and sex with beautiful thin, young women are the most coveted. Being the first to spoil these young women sexually is viewed reproductively as a guarantee of parentage, thus this is why males instinctively covet and burn with passion for these females.
Ah, yes, it was only a matter of time until the creepy pedo-justifying Evo Psych assfacts made their appearance. Not all men “burn with passion” in their pants for virginal high school girls.
This is why we have “morality” which is in its essence is a promise not to flaunt or indulge in sex moreso than the lowest man or woman in your tribe. This is what is meant when people say “morality went out the window.” They mean someone with more sexual prowess is openly indulging in sex and broadcasting it to stimulate the jealousy of the underclasses.
I’m pretty sure that’s not what people mean when they say “morality went out the window.”
This teen killed people cause he thought that beautiful girls were out of reach. The high school environment merely rubbed it in his face. Yes drugs to treat ADD might’ve eroded many of the impulse control functions in the teen, but the rage against the high school was still the gasoline.
[citation needed]
He might’ve had a picture or two taken with a girl next to him, but oftentimes those high school girls lie and simply eat up the male’s offerings without granting sexual access, but grant it to a random stud.
How dare young women choose who to have sex with, and who not to!
I’m not saying the girl he killed deserved it, it’s only that when you are in that frame of mind you cannot tell who is having more sex than others and you simply fill in the gaps with rage.
Wait, so if she had turned him down he would have been justified in killing her?
The beautiful girl simply represented everything that the teen couldn’t get. The steady love and wild sex of a valuable young girl.
Yeah, I think you’re confusing high school with porn again. His rampage lasted roughly a minute and a half. He shot her because she was there.
All the other theories posted on this site seem comical, self-righteous and weirdly off-point. It’s like you’re assessing the situation as an asexual senior citizen or righteous prude.
Not a lot of “prudes” here. Just people who find the “women need to have sex with ‘nice guys’ or these ‘nice gys’ will kill you all” to be a somewhat problematic argument.
Generally men want sex with young thin beauties who validate their existence.
Some men do. But most men, among those who are sexually attracted to women, aren’t as neurotically fixated on this small slice of the female demographic – women in their teens and early twenties who are somehow both virginal and sexually “wild” – as manosphere men seem to be. And most people don’t base their entire self-worth on whether or not they’re having sex with beautiful people.
Some men prefer women older than them. Some like women who are fat. Plenty of men don’t fixate on a particular physical type and are attracted to all sorts of different women. Believe it or not, whogoesthere, there are lots of men who are more interested in what’s in a woman’s head than they are in whether or not she matches up with some particular checklist of physical attributes.
If society removes all of the social pathways to attaining such a beauty, such as making prostitution illegal, increasing shame for men who seek sex, rewarding females and males called manginas who identify and mock the sex seekers and so on… this will lead to depression in men and all of the behaviors surrounding it, including shootings. Sounds pretty much like a logical line of reasoning to me.
And that’s the problem. It’s not actually a logical line of reasoning at all. It’s more like a sort of blackmail.
Men don’t kill women because they can’t have “the steady love and wild sex of a valuable young girl.” Sometimes men kill women because they feel entitled to have sex with these “valuable young girls” and become bitter and enraged when they can’t find a “valuable young girl” who agrees with them on this particular point.
It’s not the lack of “sexual access” that’s the problem. It’s the notion that your desire for “sexual access” means more than the right of that person to say “no.” It’s the notion that society has done you wrong because you can’t (at least at the moment) get laid. It’s the idea that your desire to have sex with a particular kind of woman somehow trumps the right of other people to live.
I mean, what the fucking fuck.
Oh, by the way, there’s no evidence that the shooter in question – Karl Halverson Pierson – was motivated by sexual frustration. His intended target was the school librarian, who is also the school’s debate coach. Pierson was obsessed with debate, and had some sort of grudge against the coach.
I always wonder how many potential serial killers are thwarted when they get caught after their very first kill. Both the procedures and the technology have improved a lot the last few decades. I think that’s why there don’t seem to be as many as there were in the 60s and 70s. It might also be why mass shootings seem to be more common they used to. Because murderous people know if they want multiple victims they have to do it all at once.
I have a close call with serial killers story too. My former professor’s friend who was the town sheriff saved a teenage boy from Gacy. The town I went to school in is in IL about a three hour drive from Chicago. Gacy came to troll for victims. He offered the boy a job working for him in Chicago. His mom was going to let him go. She happened to tell the sheriff about it and he talked her out of letting her son go off with a stranger. Good thing!
@LBT
Yayyyy! That is amazing! Congrats on the offer, the hard work and on being able to help people. Yayyyy!
LBT,
That’s great!
Argenti,
Interesting. I never heard that one before. The theories are all fun but I tend to believe the simple and unglamorous explanation laid out by profiler John Douglas in the book The Cases That Haunt Us in which he applies his experience to various unsolved murders and builds a profile for the killer. It’s a good book for anyone interested in that kind of thing. He also talks about Zodiac, Black Dahlia, Lizzie Borden and JonBenet Ramsey (he actually worked on that case)
Anyway, the Jack the Ripper murders have all the signs of a disorganized killer. He took many risks including murdering in public and he made no effort to cover up the murders. The famous “From Hell” letter was a hoax. He was an impoverished butcher with the combination of serious mental health issues + serious misogyny. Douglas thinks he was both curious about female anatomy and hateful at women for having it. Being a butcher, he could be covered in blood without anyone getting suspicious.
Apparently, despite shoddy and primitive police work they eventually had a suspect. However, the witness refused to testify. Both the witness and the suspect were Jewish. The murders happened right around the time both sensationalist journalism and scientific racism were coming into vogue. There was a lot of talk in the London media about Jewish people being less evolved and more animalistic and savage therefore Jack the Ripper had to be a Jew. In that virulently anti-Semitic climate the witness didn’t want to reinforce these beliefs.
There’s good evidence that the police knew who did it because they abruptly stopped working on the case and then the killing stopped. He likely stopped being able to function and was institutionalized. There’s a record of a man being institutionalized around the time the police stopped investigating. He was under a name that was equivalent of John Doe that was always given to unknown Jewish men so we’ll probably never know his real name.
The theories about it being a doctor or an aristocrat are more fun but don’t really fit the evidence.
Sorry to ramble on for so long! I have a morbid fascination with serial killers. I don’t know what that says about me.
Disorganized for sure, it’s how the whole “but the ripper had to have walked by COPS covered in blood” even comes into play. Seeing how that’s pretty much a given, and they don’t stop until caught, dead, or in prison/hospital, yeah, ended up in Bedlam makes a great deal of sense.
Gacy though? He had his shit planned, that boy is very lucky!
And no worries, had I not gone nuts I was debating going into forensic psych, I’m fascinated by what makes them tick. The part about potential serial killers being caught after one victim is a good one, idk what percentage are stopped that way, but with modern forsensics it’s gotta stop some of the less organized ones — if you don’t try to cover up your crime, your odds of getting caught go way up. Depends your choice of victim though, you know about the highway of tears? Canada’s level of giving a fuck depends whether the victims are indigenious (color me surprised).
LBT — w00t w00t!!
@ Argenti Aertheri
sorry I meant to say not just sexism. instead of “not sexism” typo. I have a terrible habit of words being right in my head but then no typing them
@ WWTH
I was thought very highly of Douglas et. all. until I did some reevaluation of there process. I still think the FBI does good work but I am more interested in the work of Brent Turvey. He actually wrote a text book on the subject of profiling. I am guessing you like it very much I read the thing for fun. it’s called Criminal Profiling: An Introduction to Behavioral Evidence Analysis, 4th Edition. check it out
“Canada’s level of giving a fuck depends whether the victims are indigenious (color me surprised).”
This seems to be the case in the US also. 🙁
Speaking of victims no one cares about, the fact that the Ripper’s victims were largely poor and sex workers greatly impacted how long the killings went on. BTK got so many victims by preying on a similar population. Basically, systemic misogyny interacting with the killer’s misogyny in a really bad and effective combo
Skye — yeah, I’d say it’s worse here really (US) since Canada at least knows whose jurisdiction it is. But really, I was singling out Canada just because it’s where the highway of tears shit is happening. And yep, targeting sex workers also makes the cops take longer to give a fuck.
Ken — lol, I do that all the time! No worries! Btw, you can just call me Argenti 🙂
Absolutely effing shameful and ongoing tragedy.
On another note, my emotionally abusive ex used to tell me — in the early days, when he was buttering me up — that I was way too hot for him, and that it was lucky that he met me online because he would never have found the courage to talk to a hot girl like me in a club (because hot girls are bitches!) and wasn’t he lucky that I was good-looking and willing to give a Nice Guy a chance.
@Skye
BTK actually went after more middle-class women and broke into their houses to attack them. None of his victims were sex workers, which is uncommon for a serial killer.
Closest connection to a serial killer I have is that one of the people I worked with went to high school with Paul Bernardo.
The co-worker said he was a really creepy guy even then, and she was not at all surprised when the news hit about him.
Brooked, sorry, wrong murderer. I meant the Green River killer. You’re right
And who went to college with Paul Bernardo?
Murderer Russ Williams.
Oh, Canada!
I worked at a hardware store Willie Pickton’s brother frequented. What an asshole,
I do think that the police wanted to solve the Green River killing, it’s just difficult to solve stranger murders of street sex workers. The police’s bias against sex workers is a much bigger problem when it comes to assault, rape or missing person cases. If their is a body count people care about it, if they’re alive or missing they’d rather not bother.
LBT: Awesome! I thought your pocket zine was really good. I think it could help a lot of people.
Brooked, that’s a fair point.
Good luck, LBT
You know, I was pretty conventionally attractive when I was young, and even then I never expected potential partners to worship and adore me in the way that undfreeland seems to expect because, seriously, who expects that? That’s not a boy/girlfriend, that’s a fan, and if you want one of those you’re probably going to have to become famous.
I always feel like telling guys like that to learn to play the guitar. I don’t like the dynamic that tends to occur between rock/indie bands full of dudes and their female fans (mostly because of the ways the guys tend to take advantage of it), but if you really want women following you around making awed faces, that does seem to be the way to achieve it.
@ bluecatbabe
Eek! That must have been terrifying when all the news about the West murders was coming out.
About the female serial killer thing in general, I’m not sure if most of the ones with male partners count since it’s hard to figure out what was going on and who was calling the shots there (mostly because who can tell what’s true about what happened based on the word of people who were serial killers?). So I wouldn’t include Rosemary West. Hindley and Karla Homonkula (sp?) maybe, but the only real stand-alone serial killer who killed strangers seems to be Wournos.
Closest connection I have to a serial killer is when bodies were found in an apartment block in a particular part of London, and I said to myself “that’s funny – I’m sure that’s one of the blocks overseen by a close friend who works in the local housing department”.
And it turned out that not only was I correct, but that it was specifically my friend who housed him. And he felt really bizarrely guilty about it, even though he couldn’t possibly have known in advance what was going to happen.
(I think it was this guy).
That’s not actually the message, and I’m sorry I distorted it. She doesn’t say you can CURE autoimmune disorders through diet, but that you can manage a lot of the symptoms through diet and stress management, among other interventions.
However, there are 3 things required to develop an autoimmune disorder: 1) genetic predisposition, 2) environmental trigger and 3) leaky gut. The literature is pretty clear (Ballantine says) that a leaky gut is present in pretty much all 130+ autoimmune disorders. Even the ones that don’t centre in your GI system.
And now I’m going to stop talking about it, because I don’t want the thread to go down in dietary flames. If anyone is curious to find out more, Dr. Ballantine blogs at thepaleomom.com
Woah. Congratulations, that’s wonderful for you and them! Everyone wins.
Good recipe, Falconer. I used to use them as conditioner for my spiritus but I’ll have to try your idea too! Delicious.
One sunny day three years ago, someone dragged me aside and we had the following conversation:
“Yo,Fibi. I need a wizard”
“What”
“And you mumble and talk quickly and know words like “indefinite” and “thaumaturgical”. ”
“Where is this going and can I get back to my book now?”
“Do you want to be a wizard?”
“In no world am I answering no to that question”
“Okay. Put on this robe and get in the car, we have to be 300 kilometres away from here in five hours”
And I’ve since, I’ve been loosed affiliated with a company that specializes in event work. It’s not so much a theme-park (although we do show up at those) as it is a kind of… we have a warehouse full of costumes (like this and we show up and bum about doing the kind of thing people might want us to do.
So sometimes, I am an actual knight in shining armor being an honorguard for a mayor and at other times (only once and never, never again) I get an Edward Cullen Haircut and lather glitter all over my face and play a guy from Twillight to do activities with a gaggle of 14 year olds. Or I’m in said minotaur get up inside a combat arena and people show-fight me with swords.
I guess you can think of it as LARP’ers for hire?
How this all ties into my economic and biology studies and my on-going work with taking a bachelor in Middle-eastern relations I will never know.
THE OP:
Undfreeland:
or
or god forbid
Wait. Balls. That last one is Warren Farrell.
I meant to quote this:
It’s just… weird.
As a base strategy for other people, the underlying assumption that there must be some kind of Tactic towards getting the Attention someone Desires (mra capitals!) seems to be one damn good indicator that they’re not, generally, the kind of person who will end up having what they desire with other people. They’ll constantly end up changing things around and trying to satisfy some giant hole that nonetheless only exists in their heads.
And it’s always some weird half accusation like “Oh, you OTHER PEOPLE seem to have such AMAZING LIVES, but I, I suffer in the dark of loneliness”.
and so you go
“So, do you actively try to do anything about that dark dank of loneliness without “female beauty”?”
“Yes, sometimes I prowl the bushes with binoculars in order to catch glimpses of people”
“Other than that, I mean”
“What other thing could I possibly do? Man, you don’t know how lucky you are. Some people are just born not to be attractive, and you get to have beautiful people in your life all the time”
“Yeah, well, when I get hit in the face with a sword and almost break my own nose I don’t really care so much that there’s some otherwise beautiful model in elf clothes nearby. And at all other times I’m pretty focused on my job, and also, archery is so much fun”
“Oh, no woman wants me. I dated someone beautiful once. Happiest moments of my otherwise miserable, short life”
“Well what about This Other Person? They find great, lasting joy in their art and teaching people useful coping things with mental issues. A lasting sensation of bliss from helping others and from creating things?”
“Yeah, but beautiful women are just so wonderful because they can turn you on just by being in the room… and… sigh… I never get the attention from them I want, thats the kind of bliss I desire”
“but what about That Other Person who is doing an involved study based on old historical sources that must be translated by gathering together odd linguistic clues, and which helps enlighten a whole host of fascinating economic systems in relation to the nature of bees?They get their bliss fro—”
“YES BUT BEAUTIFUL PEOPLE GIVE ME THE BLISS I WANT AND I’M GOING TO GO OUT INTO THE BUSHES AND LOOK AT THEM THROUGH A BINOCULAR AGAIN NOW!”
“argh!”
———–
Boner notes! Boner notes abound.
Oops, I fibbed. One more thing: a leaky gut is not the same thing as digestive problems. Leaky gut is simply microscopic openings in the lining of the small intestine which allows pathogens, parasites, food particles, and other things to enter the blood stream. It may or may not be accompanied by noticeable digestive issues.
@Unimaginative
I guess The Camden Ripper goes on the same pile with Jack and The Yorkshire. You Brits and your Rippers.
Whoops! I meant @Weatherby! Sorry about that.
I showed this to my wife, who laughed so hard that she nearly ruptured a vital organ, and then said that if I was even under the vaguest impression that our relationship ran along those lines, I was to let her know so that she could tip a bucket of freezing water over me.
She was also highly amused to hear that I was wealthy, intensely good looking and a sophisticated European (well, the last word is true). Possibly sporting a monocle and plus-fours as I drive off in my Ferrari for a round at one of the more exclusive golf clubs.
I must be a sad disappointment to her, but she hides it well.
I wonder if I’m good-looking enough that my husband lives a life of constant uncomplicated bliss and sublime joy by basking in my supernal glow, or if he’s one of the men enduring endless grueling misery and oppression because he couldn’t pull one of the Beautiful People and had to settle for a just kind of cute lady instead. I’d better ask.