Sometimes I hunt the misogyny, sometimes it wanders up right up to me and says hello.
Today’s post is an example of the latter. Below, a slightly edited comment that someone left for me this morning. It’s a response to a post of mine about a dreadful post on Return of Kings in which a fellow calling himself Billy Chubbs argued, with absolutely no evidence, that a recent high school shooter was driven to murder because of his “probable sexual frustration,” Chubbs went on to argue that young women are “selfish” because they don’t have sex with guys they’re not attracted to.
Anyway, my new commenter – posting under the name “whogoesthere?” – thinks that I and the other commenters here were being too hard on Chubbs’ “very good argument.” And so he deposited this giant rant, which in many ways is even scarier than Chubbs’ original.
He’s a tad verbose, so I’ve trimmed out some stuff that isn’t relevant to his general, er, thesis. And I’ve also taken the liberty of adding a few paragraph breaks and bolding a few of the best (i.e. worst) bits.
When men don’t get the women they want they turn to violence.
Not a good start here, because this just isn’t true. In this case, the phrase “not all men” is, for once, appropriate. Most men don’t get violent when they’re turned down.
This is established all over the animal kingdom and offers a good example about how it applies to humans, that snotty girls who keep their sexual treasures to all but a few males cause the remaining males to snap. …
Animals do all sorts of things that humans don’t do, and we can’t always learn from their behavior or assume that it relates to our own lives.
Or maybe the Evo Psych crew is just looking at the wrong animals. When banana slugs can’t find a partner to have sex with, they simply fertilize themselves. There’s a lesson here, I think, for the angry incels of the world: you can’t always get what you want, and when you can’t, sex with yourself is better than murder.
High school is a massively sexually charged winner take all environment. … Today’s high school is basically an ongoing audition for a porno video and the guys and girls who don’t make the cut can only sit at home and masturbate.
wat
It’s demeaning and hits a major blow to a person’s sexual identity to not be invited to frolic with the beautiful people.
Somehow most people, regardless of gender, manage to survive even if they’re not frolicking with Charlize Theron and/or Channing Tatum.
I’m sorry but almost no men go on wild shooting rampages if they have a beautiful female in their keep.
In their keep?! Also, no. Charles Manson was surrounded by beautiful young women. Yet he orchestrated multiple grisly murders.
The only guys that do so are bank robbers and thieves, generally guys at a later stage of life more fixated on money.
wat
Human beings naturally assess the amount of sex going around them and judge themselves in relationship to the amount and type of sex others are getting.
You know, you can’t actually tell how much and what kind of sex someone is having just by looking at them. Yes, there will always be people in the world having more sex with you. And some of these people are having sex with people you would probably like to have sex with. There are also people who are smarter than you, funnier than you, who can play chess or kickbox better than you, who have hundreds or thousands of times more money than you do.
That’s life. Life isn’t fair.
This makes sense because from a reproductive standpoint sex is coveted, and sex with beautiful thin, young women are the most coveted. Being the first to spoil these young women sexually is viewed reproductively as a guarantee of parentage, thus this is why males instinctively covet and burn with passion for these females.
Ah, yes, it was only a matter of time until the creepy pedo-justifying Evo Psych assfacts made their appearance. Not all men “burn with passion” in their pants for virginal high school girls.
This is why we have “morality” which is in its essence is a promise not to flaunt or indulge in sex moreso than the lowest man or woman in your tribe. This is what is meant when people say “morality went out the window.” They mean someone with more sexual prowess is openly indulging in sex and broadcasting it to stimulate the jealousy of the underclasses.
I’m pretty sure that’s not what people mean when they say “morality went out the window.”
This teen killed people cause he thought that beautiful girls were out of reach. The high school environment merely rubbed it in his face. Yes drugs to treat ADD might’ve eroded many of the impulse control functions in the teen, but the rage against the high school was still the gasoline.
[citation needed]
He might’ve had a picture or two taken with a girl next to him, but oftentimes those high school girls lie and simply eat up the male’s offerings without granting sexual access, but grant it to a random stud.
How dare young women choose who to have sex with, and who not to!
I’m not saying the girl he killed deserved it, it’s only that when you are in that frame of mind you cannot tell who is having more sex than others and you simply fill in the gaps with rage.
Wait, so if she had turned him down he would have been justified in killing her?
The beautiful girl simply represented everything that the teen couldn’t get. The steady love and wild sex of a valuable young girl.
Yeah, I think you’re confusing high school with porn again. His rampage lasted roughly a minute and a half. He shot her because she was there.
All the other theories posted on this site seem comical, self-righteous and weirdly off-point. It’s like you’re assessing the situation as an asexual senior citizen or righteous prude.
Not a lot of “prudes” here. Just people who find the “women need to have sex with ‘nice guys’ or these ‘nice gys’ will kill you all” to be a somewhat problematic argument.
Generally men want sex with young thin beauties who validate their existence.
Some men do. But most men, among those who are sexually attracted to women, aren’t as neurotically fixated on this small slice of the female demographic – women in their teens and early twenties who are somehow both virginal and sexually “wild” – as manosphere men seem to be. And most people don’t base their entire self-worth on whether or not they’re having sex with beautiful people.
Some men prefer women older than them. Some like women who are fat. Plenty of men don’t fixate on a particular physical type and are attracted to all sorts of different women. Believe it or not, whogoesthere, there are lots of men who are more interested in what’s in a woman’s head than they are in whether or not she matches up with some particular checklist of physical attributes.
If society removes all of the social pathways to attaining such a beauty, such as making prostitution illegal, increasing shame for men who seek sex, rewarding females and males called manginas who identify and mock the sex seekers and so on… this will lead to depression in men and all of the behaviors surrounding it, including shootings. Sounds pretty much like a logical line of reasoning to me.
And that’s the problem. It’s not actually a logical line of reasoning at all. It’s more like a sort of blackmail.
Men don’t kill women because they can’t have “the steady love and wild sex of a valuable young girl.” Sometimes men kill women because they feel entitled to have sex with these “valuable young girls” and become bitter and enraged when they can’t find a “valuable young girl” who agrees with them on this particular point.
It’s not the lack of “sexual access” that’s the problem. It’s the notion that your desire for “sexual access” means more than the right of that person to say “no.” It’s the notion that society has done you wrong because you can’t (at least at the moment) get laid. It’s the idea that your desire to have sex with a particular kind of woman somehow trumps the right of other people to live.
I mean, what the fucking fuck.
Oh, by the way, there’s no evidence that the shooter in question – Karl Halverson Pierson – was motivated by sexual frustration. His intended target was the school librarian, who is also the school’s debate coach. Pierson was obsessed with debate, and had some sort of grudge against the coach.
RE: undfreeland
ya’ll have pretty amazing lives, it seems. And you wonder why you don’t worry about women?
You’re confusing cause and effect, undfreeland. Take me for instance. I’m poor. Disabled. Severely mentally ill, but thankfully no longer homeless. (That’s a recent development.)
My life is pretty fucking amazing, though. Ask any of the Mammoths here, and I think any of them who’ve known me a while will admit I’ve led an interesting life. But I don’t worry about women because I have an amazing life; having friendships with women has deeply enriched my life! How could it be amazing without my wonderful friends and system members?
I am boring, unattractive and lead a life no where as interesting as some on this forum.
Dude, I’m a pretty freaky person, and I have never met someone who was truly boring, once I got to know them. They might’ve been UNPLEASANT, but never boring. Even the most boring person on earth becomes perversely fascinating to me purely because of how astonishingly dull they are. Hell, I’m fascinated by Woody here, purely because I’ve yet to see him express a single opinion or interest that’s solely his own! I’m sure he has them (I HOPE he has them) and I’m really curious to know what they are. Collecting velvet Elvises? Making upholstery out of roadkill? It has to be SOMETHING.
It’s not that you’re boring, unfreeland. It’s that you’re an ass. You’ve even said so. What’s worse, you seem unaware of it, which means you are unlikely to change.
Also, note that I didn’t win my husband’s affections with money or my hot bod. He fell in love with me because I was there for him during the worst period of his. Er. Death. Because we were compatible. Because I’m the work, and he’s the play.
It had nothing to do with money. Hell, our looks didn’t have much to do with it either; I’m a short, hairy trans bear, and I’d never been attracted to anyone before I met him, despite seeing many a man in my life.
You’re barking up the wrong tree, undfreeland. I’d feel sorry for you except you’re so determined to stay there.
Really? Baldness is conventionally attractive? Beards are conventionally attractive? How about tubby bellies or hairy backs? Because those have been features of my best sexual partners. Hell, these are men who made my preferences expand. Besides, when men are fuzzy, they tickle. :3
THUMB WARS ARE THE GREATEST! I can’t do arm-wrestling, but with thumb-wrestling you lock hands with the other person and you have to pin the other person’s thumb before they pin yours. I’m a champ!
Okay, I want to add to the positive experiences being shared here.
First casual partner (TMI warning?): My ex boyfriend of six years had broken up with me ten months previous and had found another girlfriend. I don’t meet people easily, but that was sort of my impetus to do *something*, so I turned to online dating, with the sole purpose of getting laid. I was not ready for another relationship at that point.
One of the first people I talked to was really funny. His body type intimidated me, but I didn’t want to hold that against him. We met for sushi where he continued to be funny and I got to be more comfortable with him, and kind of told him something I probably shouldn’t have, but I guess I just wanted to gauge his reaction. I’m not sure how it came up in conversation, but if you tell a dude you just met that you’ve had an abortion and they don’t flip, I figure there’s a chance they’re okay.
So after the restaurant (I paid for my half, by the way, and he didn’t insist otherwise), we went back to his apartment and watched old Spiderman episodes. At one point he tickled me and noted that while I squirmed I didn’t resist and that was because I’d forgotten how much fun that could be (ex had never tickled me).
Things got heated (the good kind), though I have to say I was nervous as all hell. I’d only started having sex that year, and only with my ex. And I still found initial penetration painful. I let him know this and told him I didn’t really know what I was doing. He wanted me on top (unexpected) and offered to go slow, asking if I was okay. Well, I was pleasantly surprised because that was the first truly enjoyable sex I’d had at that point. I did get tired of the position, though, so he got on top…and that’s how I learned it is totally possible for someone to sexually tease you when you’re already having sex. 😛 He liked to joke and tease.
Honestly, I feel I lost my virginity to him, rather than to my ex. He did a lot for me that he doesn’t even know, in terms of my sexual self-acceptance and in erasing my lingering fear of big men with big hands. Which is good because just because a man is big doesn’t mean he’ll hurt me, and just because a man isn’t doesn’t mean he won’t. I mean the reason I feared big men with big hands is because when I was a child the men who hurt me were a lot bigger than me…even though now that I’m an adult my stepfather for one is actually barely my height. So…trusting my first casual partner freed me in a lot of ways.
Ok, coming in late to the party but
And you shrugged your shoulders and said ‘go figure’. No, wait, you made it part of your misogynistic doctrine, and brought up the anecdote to back up that world view.
Oh nice! Lovely little bit of moral backhand. “I was being an ass, but I don’t blame women for preferring that.” With a neat pivot on the balls of his feet the blame is transferred and in a neat coup de grace it is forgiven! How humble! How polite! Does make you look kind of like an ass, though. You might want to consider just how different your politeness actually is from your assishness.
So, quite unsolicited, you mention your thoughts in this place, but never in any place like it. Why would anyone not just assume that?
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha no. No no no no no. Your views are extremely common, just most people have better things to do than dress them up in pretentious nonsense.
Yeah, those network TV watchers. You’re so much more interesting than them, right? I wonder how many of them are in satisfying relationships.
This implies that you are a feminist, which you are not. Feminism is a pretty big tent, but men who believe that feminism is to blame for some men’s sad boners do not have a place inside it. If this thread has not already made this sufficiently clear, let me do so now – you have been unanimously voted off the island.
PS – We noticed that you weren’t claiming to be a feminist earlier, and that the goalposts have now shifted for the umpteenth time. If you’re under the impression that people don’t realize that you’re trolling then damn, dude, you’re an even sadder case than you’re pretending to be.
Go back to troll school and retake your 101 classes.
STOP. CALLING. YOURSELF. A. FEMINIST.
If you honestly can’t understand why your One True Measure Of Status mindset is profoundly anti-feminist, after seeing an entire thread about non-traditional beauty, the value of things other than visual attractiveness and financial security, the flaws in your ideas about what constitutes “normal” interaction between men and women, and a whole bunch of us flinging very basic feminist ideas at you that you seem determined to deflect before they make it to your brain, then you should just stop commenting here and spend a few days on Finally, A Feminism 101 Blog.
Also, putting women on a pedestal is just as harmful to women (and men) as trying to keep them in the kitchen, just FYI.
So, in conclusion…
Also this: Allies, In Theory
You’re not fooling any of us.
She went away for a research project and never contacted me again. I assume she was only with me because I was convenient to her for a short time. Demanding nothing from her, but providing company and sex while she hurried through some work she had to do.
I thought she “adored” you. Now she had no feelings for you and was just hanging around because it was convenient? Your stories change a lot.
A convincing liar is a problem, but an unconvincing one is just sad.
undfreeland: Fibinachi, pecunim, ya’ll have pretty amazing lives, it seems*. And you wonder why you don’t worry about women?
I don’t wonder. I don’t worry about women because… I don’t worry about women. I’ve had dry spells (the longest was about a year). What I see, related to you, is a lot of special pleading. Everyone who has success is, in some way, “extraordinary”.
I also see, when all the various things you mention as being “special”, and so defined as, “attractive”, or “wealthy”, or “charismatic” is there is one thing about your situation which doesn’t change. You.
As to those using my past experiences with women to say I’m not a feminist. As I said, I did not intentionally “neg” them. I was just being kinda an ass and you don’t feel badly about it.
That’s pretty damning. Because if you don’t feel badly about it the implication is you wouldn’t feel badly about doing it again.
I also think it’s bizarre that anyone would assume I ever mention any of the thoughts I’ve expressed here to anyone but highly cynical men.
More admissions of your misogyny. You know that sharing your opinions with people is going to be treated harshly, but unlike your racist slip up, you don’t really feel badly about sharing it with us.
The thing is, I don’t think you are as good at hiding it as you think. Those same little tells that had us going, “asshole” from the beginning, are almost certainly there in your everyday behavior too. Yes, you can probably hide it for an evening, but regular contact is likely to let it slip. That, my dear boy, is no small part of why women avoid you.
*Yes, I do. Some of it has been incredible good fortune. Some of it has been worked for, with years of labor and effort. But the greatest part of it is that I enjoy what’s before me (mostly, I’m not perfect, and there have been some grim times. I’ve been homeless, and I’ve been heartbroken. I’ve had jobs fails, aand lovers leave me. I’ve had abusive partners and I’ve had loved ones die, those have all put me in the dumps).
I don’t get the feeling you can find validation inside yourself. Which means you are likely to never find it, and so the incredible journey which is life is going to be less fun for you than me. That’s on you.
Nope!
Truth!
Though slightly wilted purple tees that have been relegated to gardening duty aren’t bad, either.
LOL about amazing lives. My earthly life is extremely mundane (no pun intended) and probably quite dull by many people’s standards. The amazingosity is all from otherworldly stuff, and even there, we live a very quiet life.
re stories about meeting loved ones: I have an ex who was, when I met her, happily seeing someone else. It being a bantering sort of place; and we having a friendly, flirty, relationship, I said that, should she ever be single, could feel free to look me up.
Skip ahead a couple of years. I had just been dumped by a woman I’d been starting to see. I wasn’t actually, feeling all that interested in chasing after anyone; and wanted a day off (I was working a renaissance faire), so I spent a fair bit of it with her because 1: she was seeing someone and 2: not into boys.
Somehow, in the course of that day it came up that 1: she was single again, and 2: boys were just fine with her. In the course of the evening some snuggling happened, and a friend of ours was being creeped on by someone who was puppy-dogging my ex. So she took him away, and ditched him.
We made plans to get together later; because she had horses, and I like to ride. One thing led to another and we were together for years.
But, she did say, at one point; that she never should have slept with me the first time, because she’d not been having trouble finding lovers (she was seeing several men when we first slept together), but no one ever wanted to go riding with her.
(and before you go off about my good looks, and potent earnings… I’ve usually been the lowest paid part of a relationship; which is true even now. My Wife’s unemployment is more than my monthly income. Our other partner makes as much as the both of us put together. As to looks, yeah, my partners have liked mine. That’s sort of tautologic)
I’ve told men explicitly not to put me on a pedestal. One argued that might hard because I was so peerrrrfect. I told him, “You put me on a pedestal and I promise you I will fall off spectacularly. Hell, I might even jump off, probably chasing after a kitty or something shiny”. He never responded after that. :/ Don’t fucking do it. Women are not marble statues. We are people. We cry, we sweat, we poop, we scream, many of us shed tissue and blood once a month, some of us are hairy (even amongst women who shave regularly, stubble’s going to happen and you’re going to see it), we get sick, we get overwhelmed, we get tired, we get blemishes, we sneeze, we get ear wax, we get cavities, we trip over our words, we fart, we burp (I are best burper), if we have curly hair…lol I can’t even get into that here; not easy to manage, we’ll leave it at that. Oh! We shed! Or at least I do. There are curly strands of my hair pretty much everywhere I’ve been! But you notice how all of these things can apply to men too (yeah, trans men get periods)? It’s called being human! And it ain’t limited to one gender or another. No. Damn. Pedestals.
Everyone here has a better life than undfreeland. Note that I don’t actually need to know anything about some of your lives to make this assumption, it’s just kind of obvious because, well, I mean, just look at what he’s doing.
I think talking about fun sexual encounters is totally okay! I’m joining the fun!
Of course, I can’t claim hubby isn’t conventionally attractive. He’s EXTREMELY so; I noticed that when I first met him, it just wasn’t what attracted me to him. (If that were the case, I would’ve been hot for him instantly, rather than months later.)
Now, note that we had banged a few times before hubby managed to broach the subject of introducing me to the concept of fun orgasm. At the time, I’m sad to say, orgasm was my biggest trigger, so much so that I preferred NOT to get too turned on during sex because it would only end in tears. Unfortunately, at the time, neither of us knew much on the matter, so my first time coming with him went… rather poorly, with me having a dissociative episode and hubby worrying he’d assaulted me. (He didn’t, and I was positive of it from the beginning. It wasn’t his fault that neither of us knew what triggers and flashbacks were!)
After that, I think hubby thought I’d never want to do the do with him again. He underestimated his awesomeness. Even though we’d hit a snag, he’d still been way more gentle and understanding than anyone else I’d met, and if anything, his kindness made me only want in his pants MORE.
At the time, I was in college, and about the only class hubby had even the slightest interest in at the time was our art history class. (I mean, not MUCH interest, but at least he would join in sometimes.) So one day, here I am taking notes on Impressionism, or whatever, and hubby was flirting, as he was wont to do. Flirting, at least, was safe, and well, I’d never had someone flirt with me before.
Well, the flirting escalated (sort of a game of hubby trying to distract me from a class he was only slightly interested in) and the moment class ended, I basically bolted out the door to cart his flirtatious ass to bed. I figured there would just be much making out and perhaps hubby getting off, but well, one thing led to another, and it ended up being mutual. And much to my surprise, there were no triggers that time. It was just… fun. Something I’d never gotten to experience before, sex being FUN. And hubby was the one who made it happen. He was sweet and considerate and is it any wonder I’m still with him after seven years?
As to my “amazing life”: These days it centers around the garden, and the spinning wheel, and the kitchen; with some time spent selling cookware. I don’t spend enough time playing instruments, nor motorcycling.
I’m become a “dull married person”. The kind who spends half an hour staring at caterpillars eating his dill, rapt in the wonder of grapes on the vine.
Because, again, I’m happy in my skin. You aren’t.
Quiet lives can be the most amazing, no matter where they take place. All you need is the right person (even if that person is a great friend, or even just yourself).
That’s an odd way of phrasing it. “My own complaints […] about not being attractive to the women…” almost sounds like you’re blaming women for not reprogramming themselves to suit your personal whims.
Did you mean to say something like, “My complaints are about not being attracted to the women who would like to have sex with me the most”? Or “My complaints are about having been socially programmed with unrealistic expectations about what would fill me with purpose”?
If so, you’re incredibly lucky! You don’t need to try to fix other people, you just need to figure out how to free yourself from that sort of social programming. It’s a lot of work but it’s possible if you’re sufficiently motivated.
Being a dull married person is often underrated, imo. I loved being a club kid when I was one, but this life stage is pretty great too. I suspect that the keys here are living in the moment and being a person who other people like being around, which tends to result in being able to spend lots of time around people who you like.
LBT,
That’s awesome. 🙂 I love reading the stories people are posting in this thread. It makes me feel all warm.
undfreeland,
Fuck you.
Not enough time on the motorcycle eh? *cough*YouOweMeARide*cough*
I’m a dull not married person. *glances at violin* at least it’s electric and doesn’t need to be played regularly…
Fish though? Better than TV. (Damnit 55g get an ammonia cycle going, I wanna put FISHIES in you!)
@Shaenon, She did act as if she admired me. And I enjoyed it, but I assume she was only channeling those emotions to get herself off in some way. I’m not naive enough to think I could have been anybody.