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Paul Elam to A Voice for Men conference goers: Don’t say terrible things about women in public, because someone might hear you

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Let’s say, hypothetically, that you run a site that appeals to raving misogynists given to launching into violent anti-woman rants at the drop of a hat. And let’s just say that you have gone to great trouble to organize a conference that is designed to play down the fact that a significant amount of your fanbase is made up of raving misogynists given to launching into violent anti-woman rants at the drop of a hat.

Well, you probably shouldn’t post a public announcement warning the raving misogynists who will be attending your conference to refrain from launching into violent anti-woman rants at the drop of a hat because someone might hear them. Because the fact that you feel it necessary to issue such a warning is kind of a giant clue that a significant number of the conference attendees are raving misogynists given to launching into anti-woman rants at the drop of a hat.

I bring this up because Paul Elam posted just such a warning on his site last night in a post that he labeled “Important Message for AVFM Conference Ticket Holders.”

[T]here will be ideological opponents to the MHRM, including some members of the media, present at the event. Some will be looking for anything they can to hurt us with. They will be listening, eavesdropping, and if they can, gathering things to harm us with.

For that reason, ANYONE sitting around trash-talking women, men, making violent statements, even jokingly, will be brought to the attention of security who will issue ONE warning (or less). After that, they will be directed by security to leave. There are no exceptions.

Please, for all here who are attending, keep this in mind with everything you do and say. Even at after-hours social events, if you hear anyone saying anything that can be used against us, or that makes our gathering toxic, pull them aside politely and say, “Hey, you are hurting us with this. If you want to hang with this group you have to stop it.”

Oh, I suppose I should acknowledge that technically Elam also warned his attendees not to “trash-talk” men either, but the only kinds of men that ever get “trash-talked” on A Voice for Men are men that Elam and his cronies have decided have shown too much respect for women.

I’ve never run across this sort of warning at any other conference I’ve been to, or read about. I’m guessing that when the American Society of Cataract & Refractive Surgery holds its annual trade show it doesn’t have to warn attendees not to bad-mouth their sworn enemies: Ear, Nose and Throat specialists. Or that the Electronic Transactions Association has to specifically forbid its convention-goers from publicly threatening to kill people who still like to pay with cash.

Maybe they do. Maybe they’re just a bit more discreet about it.

At least one of AVFM’s misogynistic fans wasn’t thrilled by the ban on overt women-hating rants.

In the comments to Elam’s post, someone called MGTOW-man complained that,

Of course I understand why attendees can’t be honest about women and men while at venue but what is to stop those ideologues from cherry-picking and distorting things said on AVfM? What is the difference?

Also, bummer! Isn’t part of the reason mhra’s are gathering…to learn more about each other, confirm similarities, discuss philosophies and potential solutions, and forge bonds, etc—especially during socializing time? It will be excruciatingly hard to do this if attendees lips must be sealed.

Will attendees have to take their talk elsewhere if/when they need to be honest but in which outsiders obliviously cry ” hate” because they do not want the truth to be told?

How come outsiders will be allowed in socializing time? Will attendees be allowed any time to gather WITHOUT snooping idiots probing for things to be mean and clueless?

I feel for these poor fellows, trying to come up with topics of conversation that don’t involve how much women suck.

In the comments here on We Hunted the Mammoth, Sir Bodsworth Rugglesby III has offered some suggestions as to what AVFM conference goerscan can talk about if they can’t talk shit about women:

  • the weather
  • incomprehensible poster design
  • the weather
  • correct etiquette for eating cold stew from a can
  • the weather
  • hey do you think Warren Farrell is related to Colin Farrell or is it just a coincidence
  • tie knots — the Windsor vs the Esmay
  • ellipses and the rule of two
  • why all women are bloodsucking monsters. I mean the weather! The weather! Shit.

Hope that helps!

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pallygirl
pallygirl
6 years ago

Right, so Paul posts a notice which effectively says that bigotry and hatefulness will not be tolerated

But only at the conference, in front of press people, otherwise they can carry on with their normal program of bigotry and hatefulness.

Yep, this is such a wonderful example of a human right’s movement.

strivingally
6 years ago

Got it in one, @pallygirl. If Paul Elam posted a notice on the AVfM website tomorrow that said they wouldn’t tolerate hateful speech against women there either, the entire organisation would be defunct within a week.

Robert Ramirez
Robert Ramirez
6 years ago

@Woody A human rights conference? Oh puh-leaze. Try Klan meeting.

Leum
Leum
6 years ago

Right, so Paul posts a notice which effectively says that bigotry and hatefulness will not be tolerated

Yes, but not to create a safe space, but to ensure the movement doesn’t look like the sort of movement that has a lot of bigotry and hate in it, which it is.

jared
jared
6 years ago

Pau Elam is self destructing. He is making avfm look worse. By banning reporters like sworebytheprecious and others he is putting forward censorship of the media. That is not right. I have witnessed many conferences and gatherings by different groups allow reporters with differing views. That is what makes a free democracy. But Elam doesn’t see that he has this myopia being paranoid of letting people report on the convention.

He doesn’t realize he could even make himself “look good” by allowing a different perspective such as feminist one and it shows that in reality these so called mens rights guys should be working together with feminists to help better our world for not only men but all humanity. But Paul and his mra cohorts are blind to that and choose to censor and continue a hateful movement. Heck apparently even mgtow’s are supposedly emailing sworebytheprecious that they think she should be allowed to observe the conference. But Elam is self sabotaging his own ambitions and he will pay a price for this.

mildlymagnificent
6 years ago

He’s got the podium for forty-five minutes; I wonder how many times he’ll manage to mention his blog.

Someone should have one of those clicker type traffic counters and record how many times he says the word challenge. It’s the first thing I noticed about his “style” (over at Ally Fogg’s blog) and he seems totally unable to vary it.

strivingally
6 years ago

@mildlymagnificent: if the livestream didn’t involve paying $20 to AVfM I’d suggest that sounded like a drinking game. 😀

pallygirl
pallygirl
6 years ago

Drink every time he says “challenge” and refill every time he mentions his blog?

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

Are you trying to kill us all? I’m only 5ft2, there’s a limit to how much booze I can take.

LBT
LBT
6 years ago

RE: thebewilderness

Tragical that ANTZ cannot attend. I am sure he would be as big a hit there as he was here.

Impossible. He was… okay, he wasn’t my favorite troll, but he might warrant the top ten!

RE: Marie

Ps: fade says that was possibly the best use of ‘checkmate, feminists’ ever.

I’m so sad that nobody believed me. I got the black cloak for my dramatic reveal and nobody noticed! *weeps*

RE: Dan

I find it hilarious that none of you adress any of the arguments these mens rights activists make, instead attacking them as misogynists, rather than listen or considering what they say.

You realize the header bar says, “The New Misogyny, tracked and mocked,” not, “The new misogyny, analyzed and academically discussed,” right? Can you not read? If you want analysis, go to a fucking analysis website, the whole wide Internet can surely accommodate you.

RE: Auntie Alias

Dr. Tara Palmatier – The crisis relationship

What is this? Are there any more details you could share on this? Is it about partner abuse or crisis management or what?

RE: Woody

Right, so Paul posts a notice which effectively says that bigotry and hatefulness will not be tolerated, and this gets him mocked on We Hunted the Mammoth. It’s good to know what is considered mock-worthy around here.

Nope! Thanks for playing, Woody. We can always count on you speaking on Elam’s behalf.

brooked
brooked
6 years ago

15:00 — 17:00 Press conference

That’s ambitious and should go swimmingly, especially if JudgyB is still their PR director.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
6 years ago

Erin Pizzey on DV and Feminism, Karen Straughan on Antifeminism. Sounds like a hoot.

Yuli
Yuli
6 years ago

“Erin Pizzey – Domestic violence and feminism

Barbara Kay – Misandry in media

Karen Straughan – Antifeminism”

I bet those will be the most attended.

And it seems like they chose women (cis) to talk about the most sensitive matters, so trash-talking women will be hard… Oh wait…
Even if they do so, a women saying women want to be beaten/raped will never look as bad to the audience as men (cis) saying it.

Auntie Alias
Auntie Alias
6 years ago

@pallygirl

Their press conference is two hours long. Do you think they will be able to follow their own “don’t talk normally” instructions for two hours? LOL

That’s the delicious irony of it. Once they get rolling on the AVFM talking points, they’re doomed, like Dean Esmay was on the Detroit Fox affiliate. As for which press, they’ve mentioned ABC, Time, and the Washington Post. (Let’s hope the WP doesn’t send George Will on a road trip.)

@LBT

Sorry, I don’t know any other details. From what I’ve seen on AVFM, Dr. Tara Palmatier demonizes mentally ill women who were/are in relationships with men. “The Crisis Relationship” sounds right up her alley. 🙁

GrumpyOldMan
GrumpyOldMan
6 years ago

I think George Will (in his current “being raped confers coveted status” mode) is exactly the man to cover this conference.

brooked
brooked
6 years ago

@Aunty Alias

Sorry, I don’t know any other details. From what I’ve seen on AVFM, Dr. Tara Palmatier demonizes mentally ill women who were/are in relationships with men. “The Crisis Relationship” sounds right up her alley.

It’s been a while since I strapped on my hip waders and made my way through AVfM, but IIRC Dr Tara specifically helped men in relationships with bi-polar women and, oh boy, did she and her readers have a lot to say about bi-polar women.

inadvertentfeminist
inadvertentfeminist
6 years ago

Um. Yeah. You don’t tend to see people posting a blatant attempt to restrain the usual chatter, unless even THEY know that the usual chatter is a “bad thing, mmmkay?”

Flying Mouse
Flying Mouse
6 years ago

Um. Yeah. You don’t tend to see people posting a blatant attempt to restrain the usual chatter, unless even THEY know that the usual chatter is a “bad thing, mmmkay?”

I’ve been thinking the same thing. Usually rational, thoughtful adults don’t need reminders to behave well in public.

inadvertentfeminist
inadvertentfeminist
6 years ago

I’d give an awful lot of the discretionary income I don’t have to be in attendance at that conference, wearing a wire, and some of those nifty hipster glasses with the camera in the frame.

Phoenician in a time of Romans
Phoenician in a time of Romans
6 years ago

‘Please, for all here who are attending, keep this in mind with everything you do and say. Even at after-hours social events, if you hear anyone saying anything that can be used against us, or that makes our gathering toxic, pull them aside politely and say, “Hey, you are hurting us with this. If you want to hang with this group you have to stop it.”’

Oh, the bar banter is going to be classic…

“What do you tell a woman with two black eyes?”
“Domestic violence is a crime. She should leave her abusive partner and seek help.”

“What do you call a woman between two houses? ”
“Her name.”

“So a black woman, a Mexican woman, and a Jewish woman are walkign down the street. They were in a parade celebrating racial equality.”

katz
6 years ago

“What do you call a black man flying a plane?”
“A pilot, you fucking racist.”
-A joke my lab partner told me at college

strivingally
6 years ago

“How many feminists does it take to change a light bulb?”
“One, and she does it just as well as a man.”

“What’s the one guaranteed way to make your woman say yes?”
“Ask her if she’d like you to do an equal share of the housework.”

Yeah, it’ll be SO NATURAL and CASUAL, just a bunch of guys hanging out and chilling and talking about stuff.

Phoenician in a time of Romans
Phoenician in a time of Romans
6 years ago

“What have women and condoms got in common?”
“Neither of them had national voting rights before 1920. Condoms still don’t.”

“What s the difference between a woman with PMS and a pit bull?”
“Quite a lot, really.”

“How many women does it take to change a light bulb?”
“One. Unless she needs someone to help hold a stepladder, which is good safety practice regardless of gender.”

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

I suspect it will be more like.

“So, divorce. We all know that women only initiate divorces because they want to ride the…”

“Um, Dave? Dave! Remember the policy?”

“Shit. Well, OK, but you have to admit that most rape accusations are false because…”

“Fuck, we can’t say that either, can we?”

“Yeah but I mean, women’s voices, they’re so annoying, wouldn’t it be great if we could just cut out their…”

“Dave!”

“Well, shit, what are we supposed to talk about, then?”

Phoenician in a time of Romans
Phoenician in a time of Romans
6 years ago

CK, they’re not going to be able to help themselves. They’re going to couch their words in what they think is objective, neutral tones, but their underlying misogyny will be dripping out.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

If they’re not allowed to say misogynist things then they’re going to end up sitting around in awkward, resentful silence punctuated by the occasional comment about the weather.

Phoenician in a time of Romans
Phoenician in a time of Romans
6 years ago

Mmm – high blood pressure, increased stress – this conference could be actively dangerous for their health. Doesn’t anybody think about the men?

Q: “What do you call the useless bit of flesh around a pussy?”
A: “The amniotic sac. But since the mother cat eats it just after the kitten is born and it may contain hormones that help lactation, it’s premature to regard it as useless.”

kittehserf
6 years ago

Q: “What do you call the useless bit of flesh around a pussy?”
A: “The amniotic sac. But since the mother cat eats it just after the kitten is born and it may contain hormones that help lactation, it’s premature to regard it as useless.”

Not a chance. That would mean one of them knows some basic biology. 😛

katz
6 years ago

Q: Why is a woman like a bowling ball?
A: You would find both of them in a bowling alley if a woman decided to go bowling.

strivingally
6 years ago

Maybe they’ll try to circumvent it by telling Blonde jokes – since 90%+ of them are are about the “dumb blonde woman” stereotype, perhaps they’ll try to claim they’re not sexist. And then perpetuate the same terrible stereotypes with what they think is a veneer of plausible deniability.

VPumpkins
VPumpkins
6 years ago

OMG, those jokes are GOLD. The lack of an offensive punchline is way funnier because you’re challenging a conceived pattern when it comes to those types of jokes. A lot of jokes are funny because the the ‘surprise’ factor, so when a joke goes a different way than what you were expecting, it often makes the joke better.

lensman
lensman
6 years ago

So… does this mean that AVfM is going to eventually adopt the ADA Initiative’s Code of Conduct for their conference?

Sorry, but this sort of development would be really funny.

So, uhm…

…Since I have recently relapsed into “MRA Mode”, what’s the troll challenge so that I can post here? I am guessing it’s the sexist-joke-change thing.

If that’s the case, I’ve got one…

“What do you do when your wife is staggering?”
“You give her a hug, comfort her, ask her what happened, and if necessary call the police and/or an ambulance.”

(I am sorry, I know it sucks. I kept perusing a “Sexist Joke Catalogue” -I don’t personally know many overly offensive sexist jokes- to see which one I could change and this is the best I can currently come up with)

kittehserf
6 years ago

…Since I have recently relapsed into “MRA Mode”,

Wut? I missed that!

Hey, your joke’s still a whole lot better than the original! 😀

Louise McOrmond-Plummer

Erin Pizzey, she who refers to feminists as “smell lesbians” and contends that women like being smacked around, is a poisonous, dessicated reptile desperate to hang onto whatever credibility she has left – if she ever had any to begin with.

kittehserf
6 years ago

“Smell lesbians”? What’s that translated from Pizzey-speak to English?

Louise McOrmond-Plummer

God only knows, Kitteh, though I imagine it’s probably what Pizzey thinks is a witty reheating of the “feminists don’t shave and are too ugly to get a man” thing.

I think one possible consequence of the “conference” will be that the drivel offered by these intellectual mice will be neatly – and easily – deconstructed in future writings by people who have much more credibility. I look forward to reading them. I’m sure that Elam and his co-horts all have diamond-cutter boners imagining the appeal they’ll gain, but I honestly think they’ll do themselves further damage, if that’s even possible. Hoisted on their own petard and all that 🙂

Louise McOrmond-Plummer

…It also of course strongly underscores Pizzey’s homophobia

jodiethalegend
6 years ago

But hang on… since they think that their sexist, misogynistic, violent and generally hateful opinions are in fact the truth, they are not going to realise that the things they are thinking are offensive and they will say them anyway. There might be a bit of ‘we shouldn’t use the word ‘bitch”, or ‘I don’t think we are allowed to make jokes about rape’, but for the most part these are going to be a bunch of passionate, opinionated and like-minded ‘people’ who are just not going to be able to help themselves once they get started. That nastiness is going to flow like a river, and they won’t give a damn who hears because they are so sure that they are RIGHT! They will be at the conference specifically to have their horrible beliefs vindicated by others who think the same way and there is no way that a warning like this is going to keep any of them from saying exactly what they think.

Louise McOrmond-Plummer

Also, “Men’s Unique Way of Healing”…I must admit my curiosity is piqued.

Phoenician in a time of Romans
Phoenician in a time of Romans
6 years ago

Also, “Men’s Unique Way of Healing”…I must admit my curiosity is piqued.

Women are like “Cure Light Wounds. You fixed? Oh, here, another Cure Light Wounds.”
Men, real Men(*), are like “Have a Heal, dawg.”

(*) Any male less than level 11 is a mangina.

lensman
lensman
6 years ago

“Why are hurricanes named after women?”

“Hurricanes are not named. Tropical storms are named, and they retain their given name if they develop into a hurricane. And, no, they aren’t all named after women. About 50% of tropical storms are named after men. I hereby conclude that you are a mindless moron who couldn’t spend 5 minutes googling Hurricane Naming before cracking a sexist joke”.

(Yes, I DO have a citation for this:
http://geology.com/hurricanes/hurricane-names.shtml)

@kittehserf

I recently posted a comment on AVfM again and I feel like a traitor because I really like some of the people here. It seems I still have some issues with feminism (though I still don’t think I can call myself an MRA because I haven’t done any sort of meaningful Men’s Rights Activism). Hopefully, you guys will properly shoot them down when I decide to post them.

@Louise McOrmond-Plummer

If Tom Golden’s youtube channel and interviews are any indication, his lecture is going to be about how men process grief in a much different way than women (from what I understood men tend to keep themselves occupied) and about how the current psychology field is ill-equipped to handle it. He is basically going to argue for a more work/activity-based grieving process for men.

Arctic Ape
Arctic Ape
6 years ago

“So a black woman, a Mexican woman, and a Jewish woman are walking down the street.

…She’s on her way to lecture about intersectionality.”

Phoenician in a time of Romans
Phoenician in a time of Romans
6 years ago

Lensman: I hereby conclude that you are a mindless moron who couldn’t spend 5 minutes googling Hurricane Naming before cracking a sexist joke”.

I think the anti-jokes are funnier if you imagine yourself delivering them absolutely straight-faced at a bunch of mouth-breathing MRA-types beside themselves with frustration at you missing the point of the misogynist setup line. No lecture needed.

strivingally
6 years ago

@jodie:
It’s like the racists in the USA who think you can’t be a racist if you’re not using ethnic slurs. As if a handful of reprehensible words is all that constitutes prejudice and discrimination. I think a lot of the AVfM crowd will honestly think they’re out of the woods if they avoid rape jokes and try not to call anybody “cunt” or “slut”. Once again, their utter lack of self-awareness is the one good quality they have.

lensman
lensman
6 years ago

@Phoenician in a time of Romans

OK, I got it, like this?

“What do women and screen doors have in common?”
“Inevitably insects will bang on them if the wind is too hard”

strivingally
6 years ago

@Phoenician:
I think a “Heal Red-piller” spell would need to have a fist-bump as its gestural component. 😉

strivingally
6 years ago

@lensman:
Yeah, that’s the right idea – take the assumption of woman-hating in the initial setup and completely no-sell it.

“What’s the first thing a woman does when she gets out of the battered wives’ shelter?”
“Find a good supportive counsellor and install high-quality locks on her doors and windows.”

kittehserf
6 years ago

God only knows, Kitteh, though I imagine it’s probably what Pizzey thinks is a witty reheating of the “feminists don’t shave and are too ugly to get a man” thing.

Argh, I just sprained my eyes rolling them!

Also, “Men’s Unique Way of Healing”…I must admit my curiosity is piqued.

Band-aids are for wimps!

Fibinachi
6 years ago

See, I’m thinking that’s one way it’ll go down.
The other way is this:

[stage, bar. Smoke curls around a low ceiling. Glasses clink together]
“So, hey, I was just wondering if any of you guys ever noticed how the sun only shines on some days”
“Huh? Wassat, Steve?”
“It’s just, y’know, the… weather. The sun only ever shines on some days and all the other poor days just get rain. Think about deserts for a second… No clouds. The sky doesn’t cover up around there. What’s so special about sand, man? How come I have to look at fucking sun-teasers all day witb enough low level cloud coverage to block every trace of blue sky? I didn’t deserve that cirriform haunting me.”
“Yeah man I know what you mean! All men deserve the right to see the naked, vulnerable … sky. Probably through some kind of high powered telescope”
“Fuck dude, I tried that and I ended up with a restraining order… All the sky ever does to me is rain on me. Bunch of evaporative sluts”

strivingally
6 years ago

“Don’t like the look of those clouds. We might be in for some more nasty weather. My car copped some hail damage the other day -”
“FUCK YOU! Not all clouds hail on things! Can’t clouds just be clouds without you hating them!? And what about all the clouds that never rap- I mean hail! You mis-cloud-ist!”