Let’s say, hypothetically, that you run a site that appeals to raving misogynists given to launching into violent anti-woman rants at the drop of a hat. And let’s just say that you have gone to great trouble to organize a conference that is designed to play down the fact that a significant amount of your fanbase is made up of raving misogynists given to launching into violent anti-woman rants at the drop of a hat.
Well, you probably shouldn’t post a public announcement warning the raving misogynists who will be attending your conference to refrain from launching into violent anti-woman rants at the drop of a hat because someone might hear them. Because the fact that you feel it necessary to issue such a warning is kind of a giant clue that a significant number of the conference attendees are raving misogynists given to launching into anti-woman rants at the drop of a hat.
I bring this up because Paul Elam posted just such a warning on his site last night in a post that he labeled āImportant Message for AVFM Conference Ticket Holders.ā
[T]here will be ideological opponents to the MHRM, including some members of the media, present at the event. Some will be looking for anything they can to hurt us with. They will be listening, eavesdropping, and if they can, gathering things to harm us with.
For that reason, ANYONE sitting around trash-talking women, men, making violent statements, even jokingly, will be brought to the attention of security who will issue ONE warning (or less). After that, they will be directed by security to leave. There are no exceptions.
Please, for all here who are attending, keep this in mind with everything you do and say. Even at after-hours social events, if you hear anyone saying anything that can be used against us, or that makes our gathering toxic, pull them aside politely and say, āHey, you are hurting us with this. If you want to hang with this group you have to stop it.ā
Oh, I suppose I should acknowledge that technically Elam also warned his attendees not to ātrash-talkā men either, but the only kinds of men that ever get ātrash-talkedā on A Voice for Men are men that Elam and his cronies have decided have shown too much respect for women.
I’ve never run across this sort of warning at any other conference I’ve been to, or read about. I’m guessing that when the American Society of Cataract & Refractive Surgery holds its annual trade show it doesn’t have to warn attendees not to bad-mouth their sworn enemies: Ear, Nose and Throat specialists. Or that the Electronic Transactions Association has to specifically forbid its convention-goers from publicly threatening to kill people who still like to pay with cash.
Maybe they do. Maybe they’re just a bit more discreet about it.
At least one of AVFM’s misogynistic fans wasn’t thrilled by the ban on overt women-hating rants.
In the comments to Elam’s post, someone called MGTOW-man complained that,
Of course I understand why attendees can’t be honest about women and men while at venue but what is to stop those ideologues from cherry-picking and distorting things said on AVfM? What is the difference?
Also, bummer! Isn’t part of the reason mhra’s are gathering…to learn more about each other, confirm similarities, discuss philosophies and potential solutions, and forge bonds, etc—especially during socializing time? It will be excruciatingly hard to do this if attendees lips must be sealed.
Will attendees have to take their talk elsewhere if/when they need to be honest but in which outsiders obliviously cry ” hate” because they do not want the truth to be told?
How come outsiders will be allowed in socializing time? Will attendees be allowed any time to gather WITHOUT snooping idiots probing for things to be mean and clueless?
I feel for these poor fellows, trying to come up with topics of conversation that don’t involve how much women suck.
In the comments here on We Hunted the Mammoth, Sir Bodsworth Rugglesby III has offered some suggestions as to what AVFM conference goerscan can talk about if they can’t talk shit about women:
- the weather
- incomprehensible poster design
- the weather
- correct etiquette for eating cold stew from a can
- the weather
- hey do you think Warren Farrell is related to Colin Farrell or is it just a coincidence
- tie knots ā the Windsor vs the Esmay
- ellipses and the rule of two
- why all women are bloodsucking monsters. I mean the weather! The weather! Shit.
Hope that helps!
I kind of want to go to this conference to see what “issues” mras are “concerned” about.
Jacob, this isn’t a news site – it’s a blog dedicated to making fun of misogynists, using comedy. Hence the “enemy” ear nose & throat specialists – it’s much more absurd, and thus humorous, than using liberals and conservatives.
@LBT
hahahah XD
Ps: fade says that was possibly the best use of ‘checkmate, feminists’ ever.
In what universe does a ‘human rights’ conference need to remind its members about not hating on half the human race?
Now I remember why the word that keeps sticking on my tongue tip is ‘pathetic’.
Yeah, I go to a lot of conferences. I’ve been to various social justice conferences and animal training conferences and SAR conferences and religious conferences, and I have never heard anything like that little caution/policy. As others have said, there have been policies about people engaging in hateful or threatening speech, but it’s always approached from the, “We’re trying to create a safe space for everyone, so this kind of speech will not be tolerated,” angle.
Maybe if you have to warn your participants not to talk like they normally would lest the press think it represents you, your problems are a bit bigger than people “focusing on the bad.”
The MRAs are trying to be well dressed??
I’m picturing a fashion parade of MRAs in faux-fur coats and aviator goggles on one side and MGTOWs on the other side in stained sweatshirts and sock/sandal combos on the other.
@cloudiah
*waves back* Hi! š
@jared
Yeah it does sound like they are trying to do damage control, though a lot of damage has already been done. I just don’t get why the media reporting on this just don’t go read AvfM and see for themselves how hateful they are. Just go to the source. Even if they manage to be on their best behavior in their fanciest suits at the conference doesn’t change what is written on the site. Though I do recall some articles portraying them as the jerks that they are. I might have missed more since I try to avoid this issue now as it depresses me.
If you aren’t a hate group but you suspect there are people coming to your convention who want to say horrible, hateful shit, why not say to your fellow convention goers, “Hey, we aren’t a hate group. If you don’t think you can keep from saying bigoted, hateful shit at our convention, stay home. We don’t want you here, because we aren’t a movement for hateful bigots”?
If you are only admonishing people to behave decently because a sneaky feminist spy (The whole idea is so Secret Squirrel) might overhear you, you aren’t doing humans rights / social justice activism. You’re just having an old fashion hate-a-thon.
@Quackers
Yeah damage control it is. The whole conference is a public relations game.. It is like marketing their brand. The obnoxious Paul Elam is all about as we know about the so called “a voice for men brand”. Remember I think a few months ago there was a thread here how Elam wanted a new logo for his website. Then the conference and he attempted to fake everyone out by having claiming the seminars and workshops at his conference will have really important speakers in the field of mens issues. He is cunning and trying to make disgusting conference look like big national mens convention trying to make it look all suave and hip to the public but unfortunately the press will find out about the hateful comments about women and so many others on his vile blog.
He attempted to have it in a prominent hotel and now he is boasting how their so accepted and loved by the vfw hall. Elam is a liar and a hate monger. It is all about his so called brand like a hateful bitter concert promoter. But don’t worry Quackers the word will get out about all the bigotry and hate from Elam’s website. He seems like a promoting type personality with a type of mean charisma. I know how you feel it can be depressing. That is why I am supporting DarkHorseSwore and other who will protest because I live in New York City and I am not wasting plane ticket money and time off of work for Elam’s hateful garbage. But others who can make it hopefully can get the mainstream media to publish the truth that the conference is really a hate movement in disguise.
@jared
Well I suppose for me it’s depressing also because I’ve been following this stuff for a few years now. I don’t get involved or engage with MRAs besides commenting on this blog and with trolls back in the day when we had regular trolls on here like Antz. I’ve also been on plenty of MRA sites and read their stuff and watched some of their videos. I used to read AvfM often and it is one of the worst out there in the manosphere. Even r/MR isn’t as bad (and they’re pretty bad) There is only so much a person can take of such vitriol and especially if you yourself are a target so i avoid it now for the most part. I just get annoyed that the media can’t see them for what they are and don’t exactly bother to find out why feminists protest their events. But since MRAs have only become relatively mainstream in the last…year maybe? I suppose it makes sense that most people including those in the media who do not have the years of familiarity with the manosphere as David and most of the community here does, would not outright say with certainty that they are hateful reactionary group. I think the media and general public will eventually figure it out, but another thing I fear is that it will go fall for the fallacy of nuetrality. I see that amongst my peergroup a lot. “I don’t like MRAs but I don’t like feminists either they are both extremists” that type of thinking. I think it’s incorrect because while feminism does have it’s extremists they are called out and shoved off into their own little groups (like TERFS) and feminism has a lot more nuance and branches plus has actually helped women. That and it’s been around for decades longer than the MRM. You just can’t even compare the two but I guess I’d rather take the majority population disliking both groups rather than siding with MRA asslogic.
Those groups arenāt analogous at all. Those specialists wouldnāt be enemies, people donāt choose between their Eye, Ear, Nose and Throat specialists.
But that’s kind of the point. Why are women the “enemies” of MRAs? For that matter, why are feminists?
@Quackers
Yeah I understand what you said about being annoyed at the media. There really is not that much exposure at least in the mainstream media about the manosphere and the rise of hateful mens rights blogs in the last few years online. I totally understand Quackers about how much can one take and the vitriol of blogs like a voice for men and the spearhead. The good news is a lot of the bigoted mens rights blogs have died out as well.
But that is what makes a voice for men so despicable. Elam thinks the conference in Detroit will make him mainstream. Elam is so egotistical a been recently boasting that this is the first time mgtow’s in the so called manosphere will have some sort of convention and he is trying to have these complete loser lowlife idiots look good and be on their best behavior. Plus Elam seems to be getting more and more women on his blog and he loves to exploit the fact that some women like Karen Straughn are allowed to be a part of the avfm community.
I think the media will expose these guys at avfm as a hateful reactionary group. I agree with you that feminism has some branches that help men such as the work of Michael Kimmel and Rob Okun. But Elam is an sly opportunist who has tried to carve a niche on the internet for bitter angry hateful men. He thinks this conference is going to transform the mens movement. But after the media gather hateful comments from the men there, and some protesters, it will be exposed for the vile hate movement it is. The word will get out that a voice for men is bigoted is not a legitimate mens advocacy organization their claiming to be.
I keep thinking that on some conscious level they know what they are doing is evil. If they didn’t why would they want to cover it up?
@Robert Ramirez – I agree. They realize that if people knew how they usually act, they’d be despised (which they’d probably rationalize as being oppressed by the matriarchy for their bravery in speaking the truth), which is why Elam is banning the sort of anti-women rhetoric that he usually indulges in and encourages others to as well. And as others have so ably pointed out, Elam’s focus isn’t on scolding people for saying those things on a moral basis (because he relies on exactly that sort of whipped-up hatefulness) but rather on scolding people for saying those things publically at his event and making him personally look bad.
The last I heard Sworeby wasn’t going to be allowed into the conference. Has that changed?
Whaaaaaaaaaaat?
Sworebytheprecious. I’m not sure from the gist of some comments whether AVfM has relented and decided to let her in. Last I heard after her 4 AM convo with Dean Esmay Elam and JB reneged on letting her in. Has that changed?
I guess time will tell. In the meantime, I’m glad to see you here, MarineRachel. I hope you are feeling a lot better.
Thank you. Not feeling any better yet though. Having a very ugly morning.
“If you did not get this email, check your spam folder.”
Hahahahahahah. Guess that was written in a hurry.
From what I on saw on her dialogue with Dean Esmay on you tube site, Esmay claims he personally supports her reporting on the conference but Elam and the others at avfm don’t want her there because they think she will deliberately make the conference look bad. Go figure? Elam is afraid that the truth about his hate movement will be reported so he is attempting to block entry for her. On one hand Esmay keeps reiterating how the various workshops and seminars at the conference will be so groundbreaking but then he gets all paranoid and won’t discuss any of the specifics of what is actually going to go on inside. It seems like their so darn secretive about this event and then they expect a lot of men to show up. I do hope Elam allows Esmay to let her in the conference. She even promised them she would cause no problems. It is so crucial to have at least one or two objective reporters to get in their because it is important that the truth about this conference of hate and bigotry has to be exposed. We’ll just see what unfolds.
@marinerachel I hope you feel better and be good to yourself . Whose better than you? right try to enjoy the weekend. I know I will try despite the daily aggravations in life. That is why I like this blog- it is a catharsis effect for me.
I knew someone who went to a conference in China who was told upfront that his interpreter wouldn’t translate anything overtly political or anything derogatory about either China or his home country (the UK). But that’s not quite the same thing.
@Chris Wilson
The latest info I can find is this from Dean Esmay in the AgainstMensRights subreddit:
Too bad.
Does this mean Elam isn’t going to wear his “FTSU” t-shirt to the conference? After all, it applies to feminists, not women… right?
(sarcasm)
Yet asking his drones not to trash-talk women is like telling dogs not to bark at strangers walking by it’s front yard — a near impossible feat. This is what anti-fems in his circle do; this is who they are. This is what they’ve being encouraged to do all this time and now suddenly they’d have to hold their breath at the conference…
As much as I am oppose to Avfm staffers being at this con, a part of me wants them to be there just so they can fuck their own shit up. If not the drones, the staffers will — hopefully.
Though I do hope Dean Esmay wears his clownish long tie :p