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Paul Elam to A Voice for Men conference goers: Don’t say terrible things about women in public, because someone might hear you

loose-lips-213

Let’s say, hypothetically, that you run a site that appeals to raving misogynists given to launching into violent anti-woman rants at the drop of a hat. And let’s just say that you have gone to great trouble to organize a conference that is designed to play down the fact that a significant amount of your fanbase is made up of raving misogynists given to launching into violent anti-woman rants at the drop of a hat.

Well, you probably shouldn’t post a public announcement warning the raving misogynists who will be attending your conference to refrain from launching into violent anti-woman rants at the drop of a hat because someone might hear them. Because the fact that you feel it necessary to issue such a warning is kind of a giant clue that a significant number of the conference attendees are raving misogynists given to launching into anti-woman rants at the drop of a hat.

I bring this up because Paul Elam posted just such a warning on his site last night in a post that he labeled “Important Message for AVFM Conference Ticket Holders.”

[T]here will be ideological opponents to the MHRM, including some members of the media, present at the event. Some will be looking for anything they can to hurt us with. They will be listening, eavesdropping, and if they can, gathering things to harm us with.

For that reason, ANYONE sitting around trash-talking women, men, making violent statements, even jokingly, will be brought to the attention of security who will issue ONE warning (or less). After that, they will be directed by security to leave. There are no exceptions.

Please, for all here who are attending, keep this in mind with everything you do and say. Even at after-hours social events, if you hear anyone saying anything that can be used against us, or that makes our gathering toxic, pull them aside politely and say, “Hey, you are hurting us with this. If you want to hang with this group you have to stop it.”

Oh, I suppose I should acknowledge that technically Elam also warned his attendees not to “trash-talk” men either, but the only kinds of men that ever get “trash-talked” on A Voice for Men are men that Elam and his cronies have decided have shown too much respect for women.

I’ve never run across this sort of warning at any other conference I’ve been to, or read about. I’m guessing that when the American Society of Cataract & Refractive Surgery holds its annual trade show it doesn’t have to warn attendees not to bad-mouth their sworn enemies: Ear, Nose and Throat specialists. Or that the Electronic Transactions Association has to specifically forbid its convention-goers from publicly threatening to kill people who still like to pay with cash.

Maybe they do. Maybe they’re just a bit more discreet about it.

At least one of AVFM’s misogynistic fans wasn’t thrilled by the ban on overt women-hating rants.

In the comments to Elam’s post, someone called MGTOW-man complained that,

Of course I understand why attendees can’t be honest about women and men while at venue but what is to stop those ideologues from cherry-picking and distorting things said on AVfM? What is the difference?

Also, bummer! Isn’t part of the reason mhra’s are gathering…to learn more about each other, confirm similarities, discuss philosophies and potential solutions, and forge bonds, etc—especially during socializing time? It will be excruciatingly hard to do this if attendees lips must be sealed.

Will attendees have to take their talk elsewhere if/when they need to be honest but in which outsiders obliviously cry ” hate” because they do not want the truth to be told?

How come outsiders will be allowed in socializing time? Will attendees be allowed any time to gather WITHOUT snooping idiots probing for things to be mean and clueless?

I feel for these poor fellows, trying to come up with topics of conversation that don’t involve how much women suck.

In the comments here on We Hunted the Mammoth, Sir Bodsworth Rugglesby III has offered some suggestions as to what AVFM conference goerscan can talk about if they can’t talk shit about women:

  • the weather
  • incomprehensible poster design
  • the weather
  • correct etiquette for eating cold stew from a can
  • the weather
  • hey do you think Warren Farrell is related to Colin Farrell or is it just a coincidence
  • tie knots — the Windsor vs the Esmay
  • ellipses and the rule of two
  • why all women are bloodsucking monsters. I mean the weather! The weather! Shit.

Hope that helps!

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JakeFromStateFarm
JakeFromStateFarm
6 years ago

I kind of want to go to this conference to see what “issues” mras are “concerned” about.

Fnoicby
Fnoicby
6 years ago

Jacob, this isn’t a news site – it’s a blog dedicated to making fun of misogynists, using comedy. Hence the “enemy” ear nose & throat specialists – it’s much more absurd, and thus humorous, than using liberals and conservatives.

Marie
Marie
6 years ago

@LBT

My time has come! *throws off black cloak* I have been deceiving all of you Mammoths for years! I AM ZARAT! Also Owly, Tom Martin, and George Washington. CHECKMATE FEMINISTS.

hahahah XD

Ps: fade says that was possibly the best use of ‘checkmate, feminists’ ever.

House Mouse Queen
6 years ago

In what universe does a ‘human rights’ conference need to remind its members about not hating on half the human race?

Now I remember why the word that keeps sticking on my tongue tip is ‘pathetic’.

AK
AK
6 years ago

Yeah, I go to a lot of conferences. I’ve been to various social justice conferences and animal training conferences and SAR conferences and religious conferences, and I have never heard anything like that little caution/policy. As others have said, there have been policies about people engaging in hateful or threatening speech, but it’s always approached from the, “We’re trying to create a safe space for everyone, so this kind of speech will not be tolerated,” angle.

Maybe if you have to warn your participants not to talk like they normally would lest the press think it represents you, your problems are a bit bigger than people “focusing on the bad.”

katz
6 years ago

The other day I ran across a comment from one the mra bloggers I think it may have been mens rights reddit where some mra’s were telling that other mra that they were going wear nice suits and urging other mra’s to look their best an be well groomed.

The MRAs are trying to be well dressed??

Sir Bodsworth Rugglesby III
Sir Bodsworth Rugglesby III
6 years ago

I’m picturing a fashion parade of MRAs in faux-fur coats and aviator goggles on one side and MGTOWs on the other side in stained sweatshirts and sock/sandal combos on the other.

Quackers
Quackers
6 years ago

@cloudiah
*waves back* Hi! 😀

@jared
Yeah it does sound like they are trying to do damage control, though a lot of damage has already been done. I just don’t get why the media reporting on this just don’t go read AvfM and see for themselves how hateful they are. Just go to the source. Even if they manage to be on their best behavior in their fanciest suits at the conference doesn’t change what is written on the site. Though I do recall some articles portraying them as the jerks that they are. I might have missed more since I try to avoid this issue now as it depresses me.

Lea
Lea
6 years ago

If you aren’t a hate group but you suspect there are people coming to your convention who want to say horrible, hateful shit, why not say to your fellow convention goers, “Hey, we aren’t a hate group. If you don’t think you can keep from saying bigoted, hateful shit at our convention, stay home. We don’t want you here, because we aren’t a movement for hateful bigots”?

If you are only admonishing people to behave decently because a sneaky feminist spy (The whole idea is so Secret Squirrel) might overhear you, you aren’t doing humans rights / social justice activism. You’re just having an old fashion hate-a-thon.

jared
jared
6 years ago

@Quackers

Yeah damage control it is. The whole conference is a public relations game.. It is like marketing their brand. The obnoxious Paul Elam is all about as we know about the so called “a voice for men brand”. Remember I think a few months ago there was a thread here how Elam wanted a new logo for his website. Then the conference and he attempted to fake everyone out by having claiming the seminars and workshops at his conference will have really important speakers in the field of mens issues. He is cunning and trying to make disgusting conference look like big national mens convention trying to make it look all suave and hip to the public but unfortunately the press will find out about the hateful comments about women and so many others on his vile blog.

He attempted to have it in a prominent hotel and now he is boasting how their so accepted and loved by the vfw hall. Elam is a liar and a hate monger. It is all about his so called brand like a hateful bitter concert promoter. But don’t worry Quackers the word will get out about all the bigotry and hate from Elam’s website. He seems like a promoting type personality with a type of mean charisma. I know how you feel it can be depressing. That is why I am supporting DarkHorseSwore and other who will protest because I live in New York City and I am not wasting plane ticket money and time off of work for Elam’s hateful garbage. But others who can make it hopefully can get the mainstream media to publish the truth that the conference is really a hate movement in disguise.

Quackers
Quackers
6 years ago

@jared

Well I suppose for me it’s depressing also because I’ve been following this stuff for a few years now. I don’t get involved or engage with MRAs besides commenting on this blog and with trolls back in the day when we had regular trolls on here like Antz. I’ve also been on plenty of MRA sites and read their stuff and watched some of their videos. I used to read AvfM often and it is one of the worst out there in the manosphere. Even r/MR isn’t as bad (and they’re pretty bad) There is only so much a person can take of such vitriol and especially if you yourself are a target so i avoid it now for the most part. I just get annoyed that the media can’t see them for what they are and don’t exactly bother to find out why feminists protest their events. But since MRAs have only become relatively mainstream in the last…year maybe? I suppose it makes sense that most people including those in the media who do not have the years of familiarity with the manosphere as David and most of the community here does, would not outright say with certainty that they are hateful reactionary group. I think the media and general public will eventually figure it out, but another thing I fear is that it will go fall for the fallacy of nuetrality. I see that amongst my peergroup a lot. “I don’t like MRAs but I don’t like feminists either they are both extremists” that type of thinking. I think it’s incorrect because while feminism does have it’s extremists they are called out and shoved off into their own little groups (like TERFS) and feminism has a lot more nuance and branches plus has actually helped women. That and it’s been around for decades longer than the MRM. You just can’t even compare the two but I guess I’d rather take the majority population disliking both groups rather than siding with MRA asslogic.

Shaenon
6 years ago

Those groups aren’t analogous at all. Those specialists wouldn’t be enemies, people don’t choose between their Eye, Ear, Nose and Throat specialists.

But that’s kind of the point. Why are women the “enemies” of MRAs? For that matter, why are feminists?

jared
jared
6 years ago

@Quackers

Yeah I understand what you said about being annoyed at the media. There really is not that much exposure at least in the mainstream media about the manosphere and the rise of hateful mens rights blogs in the last few years online. I totally understand Quackers about how much can one take and the vitriol of blogs like a voice for men and the spearhead. The good news is a lot of the bigoted mens rights blogs have died out as well.

But that is what makes a voice for men so despicable. Elam thinks the conference in Detroit will make him mainstream. Elam is so egotistical a been recently boasting that this is the first time mgtow’s in the so called manosphere will have some sort of convention and he is trying to have these complete loser lowlife idiots look good and be on their best behavior. Plus Elam seems to be getting more and more women on his blog and he loves to exploit the fact that some women like Karen Straughn are allowed to be a part of the avfm community.

I think the media will expose these guys at avfm as a hateful reactionary group. I agree with you that feminism has some branches that help men such as the work of Michael Kimmel and Rob Okun. But Elam is an sly opportunist who has tried to carve a niche on the internet for bitter angry hateful men. He thinks this conference is going to transform the mens movement. But after the media gather hateful comments from the men there, and some protesters, it will be exposed for the vile hate movement it is. The word will get out that a voice for men is bigoted is not a legitimate mens advocacy organization their claiming to be.

Robert Ramirez
Robert Ramirez
6 years ago

I keep thinking that on some conscious level they know what they are doing is evil. If they didn’t why would they want to cover it up?

Jenny (@dontgiveah00t)

@Robert Ramirez – I agree. They realize that if people knew how they usually act, they’d be despised (which they’d probably rationalize as being oppressed by the matriarchy for their bravery in speaking the truth), which is why Elam is banning the sort of anti-women rhetoric that he usually indulges in and encourages others to as well. And as others have so ably pointed out, Elam’s focus isn’t on scolding people for saying those things on a moral basis (because he relies on exactly that sort of whipped-up hatefulness) but rather on scolding people for saying those things publically at his event and making him personally look bad.

Chris Wilson
6 years ago

The last I heard Sworeby wasn’t going to be allowed into the conference. Has that changed?

marinerachel
marinerachel
6 years ago

Whaaaaaaaaaaat?

Chris Wilson
6 years ago

Sworebytheprecious. I’m not sure from the gist of some comments whether AVfM has relented and decided to let her in. Last I heard after her 4 AM convo with Dean Esmay Elam and JB reneged on letting her in. Has that changed?

Chris Wilson
6 years ago

I guess time will tell. In the meantime, I’m glad to see you here, MarineRachel. I hope you are feeling a lot better.

marinerachel
marinerachel
6 years ago

Thank you. Not feeling any better yet though. Having a very ugly morning.

banshee
banshee
6 years ago

“If you did not get this email, check your spam folder.”

Hahahahahahah. Guess that was written in a hurry.

jared
jared
6 years ago

From what I on saw on her dialogue with Dean Esmay on you tube site, Esmay claims he personally supports her reporting on the conference but Elam and the others at avfm don’t want her there because they think she will deliberately make the conference look bad. Go figure? Elam is afraid that the truth about his hate movement will be reported so he is attempting to block entry for her. On one hand Esmay keeps reiterating how the various workshops and seminars at the conference will be so groundbreaking but then he gets all paranoid and won’t discuss any of the specifics of what is actually going to go on inside. It seems like their so darn secretive about this event and then they expect a lot of men to show up. I do hope Elam allows Esmay to let her in the conference. She even promised them she would cause no problems. It is so crucial to have at least one or two objective reporters to get in their because it is important that the truth about this conference of hate and bigotry has to be exposed. We’ll just see what unfolds.

@marinerachel I hope you feel better and be good to yourself . Whose better than you? right try to enjoy the weekend. I know I will try despite the daily aggravations in life. That is why I like this blog- it is a catharsis effect for me.

Wetherby
Wetherby
6 years ago

I knew someone who went to a conference in China who was told upfront that his interpreter wouldn’t translate anything overtly political or anything derogatory about either China or his home country (the UK). But that’s not quite the same thing.

Auntie Alias
Auntie Alias
6 years ago

@Chris Wilson

The latest info I can find is this from Dean Esmay in the AgainstMensRights subreddit:

I did as-promised go to bat for her. Several things had the team vote against me. I will still meet her for lunch or late dinner at some point while she’s in town as I told her, if she wants to.

Too bad.

Felisha
Felisha
6 years ago

Does this mean Elam isn’t going to wear his “FTSU” t-shirt to the conference? After all, it applies to feminists, not women… right?
(sarcasm)

Yet asking his drones not to trash-talk women is like telling dogs not to bark at strangers walking by it’s front yard — a near impossible feat. This is what anti-fems in his circle do; this is who they are. This is what they’ve being encouraged to do all this time and now suddenly they’d have to hold their breath at the conference…

As much as I am oppose to Avfm staffers being at this con, a part of me wants them to be there just so they can fuck their own shit up. If not the drones, the staffers will — hopefully.

Though I do hope Dean Esmay wears his clownish long tie :p

Faint Praise
Faint Praise
6 years ago

“tie knots — the Windsor vs the Esmay”

I must have missed an Esmay outfit. Or does this refer to a logical knot?

Kootiepatra
Kootiepatra
6 years ago

The closest I’ve ever come to having this kind of memo is when I attended a protest. Because a protest is, 1) by its very nature, controversial, 2) prone to attracting tinfoil-hat-types from all sorts of ideological backgrounds, and 3) likely to draw some hostile pushback, the organizers asked us to not answer media questions on behalf of the protest. We could share our own feelings (e.g. “What brings you here? How did you hear about it?” etc.), but any questions pertaining to “What is [organization] about? What do you hope to accomplish?” was to be sent to the media liaisons.

But really, in the end, all that means is “Please don’t speak to the media on our behalf unless we have specifically given you that job,” not, “Try not to say hateful swill in public.”

Dan
Dan
6 years ago

I find it hilarious that none of you adress any of the arguments these mens rights activists make, instead attacking them as misogynists, rather than listen or considering what they say. It’s pretty clear bigotry to me. Bigotry and prejudice. You judge them before you even listen. It’s pretty typical of self described feminists .

cloudiah
6 years ago

Sorry, I haven’t read through current comments. Has anyone posted this yet?

GrumpyOldMan
GrumpyOldMan
6 years ago

@Faint Praise: Esmay appeared on a TV interview with a tie so long it looked like he might accidentally zip it into his fly.

Auntie Alias
Auntie Alias
6 years ago

@cloudiah

Nice!

marinerachel
marinerachel
6 years ago

Kinda looked like he could have wiped his ass with that tie.

Isabelle
Isabelle
6 years ago

There is pretty much always some sort of pre-demonstration, pre-strike talk about how to handle situations with the public and the police, but its not about looking “good”. More like, stay cool, stay safe and don’t escalate shit. I never attended any sort of conferences where you have to warn the attendees to behave. It reminds me the rumors years ago on how the KKK was coaching its member in politically correct talk.

jared
jared
6 years ago

@cloudiah

Thanks for the link that is an interesting anti mra banner. It clearly seemed to pinpoint some of the basic bigoted stances that a voice for men supports. The group that made that link is also going to have some type of mra hate watch facebook page to track their stuff down. I also like the link for the legitimate men site http://robokun.net/voice-male/ as a resource along with a male rape survivor resource. This gives people who truly want to help men in their lives but have come across mra stuff an alternative resource. Good interesting link.

Louise McOrmond-Plummer

The thing is, they’re such low-hanging fruit it isn’t necessary to try very hard to find something that makes them look like crap – and they’re worried NOW about their public image?

Sworebytheprecious (@DarkHorseSwore)

oh lorde.

you know, i got a real nice 50s style dress for the conference and everything. plan to curl my hair, wear heels, all that jazz. i can clean up pretty well. give them a nice little monster.

and here they want to deny themselves… what, their purpose? i simply don’t know how they plan to hold a conference dedicated to an organization founded, funded, and perpetuated by woman-bashing and feminist hate-mongering while going out of their way not to bash women. this would be like holding PAX during an electrical outage; you could do it but everyone would just we wondering what happened to the power the whole time. so i predict an even split here.

Farell might be able to pull it off. Cools could maybe pull some rabbits out of a hat and distract the audience with some kind of plea for Canadian rule of law. Esmay is full of surprises. Pizzey i’m sure could find the will. the rest are a toss up; that’s it though. just try making GirlWritesWhat, Molyneux, Bloomfield, and Elam toe this line. regardless of what he wants, Elam can’t stop bashing women for a single blog post. an entire conference of good behavior towards women is a hard sell to make on a man who uses phrases like “Mary Jane Rottencrotch” when describing divorcees.

and i have heard from more than (counts screencaps) twenty two MRAs who not only want me at the conference outside and want to be interviewed, but think it would be cool to see me inside recording and documenting. a bunch asked me to do an AMA on Reddit /r/mensrights for some reason. what is AVfM afraid of? what horrible thing do they possibly think they can say which has not already been said and will shock everyone into madness? is it worse or better than getting Sleazy to write a front page op-ed on Rodger?

i’m not the one who needs to do damage control here. they do. and damage control seems to be asking people to be quite. that’s never a good sign.

Auntie Alias
Auntie Alias
6 years ago

For anyone who doesn’t want to go to AVFM for the conference agenda, here it is minus the breaks.

Thursday, June 26th

13:00 — 17:00 Warren Farrell, Ph. D. – Workshop: On modern fatherhood
15:00 — 17:00 Press conference

Friday, June 27th

08:45 — 09:30 Registration

Men in families
09:30 — 09:45 Paul Elam – Welcome
09:45 — 10:30 Hon. Anne Cools, Senator – The law: Fathers, children, and their well-being
10:30 — 11:15 Erin Pizzey – Domestic violence and feminism
11:45 — 12:30 Dr. Tara Palmatier – The crisis relationship
12:30 — 13:15 Mike Buchanan – Let’s get political!

Men in society
14:30 — 15:15 Fred Jones, JD – Cultural bias
15:15 — 16:00 Barbara Kay – Misandry in media

Men in their personal lives
16:30 — 17:15 Tom Golden, LCSW – Men’s unique way of healing
17:15 — 18:00 Paul Elam – Blue collar invisible man

Saturday, June 28th

08:45 — 09:00 Attila Vinczer – Welcome

What are we doing about it?
09:00 — 09:45 Warren Farrell, Ph. D. – The Men’s Movement
09:45 — 10:30 Karen Straughan – Antifeminism

What is the law doing about it?
11:00 — 11:45 Carnell Smith – Paternity fraud
11:45 — 12:30 Robert Franklin – Family courts

What are we doing to our kids?
13:45 — 14:30 Terri Pop – Men in the military
14:30 — 15:15 Dr. Miles Groth – Young men in education
15:45 — 16:30 Stephan Molyneux – Circumcision
16:30 — 18:00 Panel session

leftwingfox
6 years ago

I find it hilarious that none of you adress any of the arguments these mens rights activists make, instead attacking them as misogynists

You must be new here.

Auntie Alias
Auntie Alias
6 years ago

Barbara Kay is a journalist for the National Post, a prominent right-wing Canadian newspaper that’s published blatantly racist, transphobic, and misogynistic articles and opinion pieces. MRAs love her and flock to the comments section when she writes about teh poor menz or “rape culture hysteria”. Reading her condescending bigotry makes me very, very angry.

I predict she will wring her hands over the “politically correct” media not telling the real truth about men’s issues.

Auntie Alias
Auntie Alias
6 years ago

I find it hilarious that none of you adress any of the arguments these mens rights activists make

Oh look. Another butthurt mister. You call those hateful screeds arguments?

Leum
Leum
6 years ago

I find it hilarious that none of you adress any of the arguments these mens rights activists make, instead attacking them as misogynists

We have addressed the arguments. We did it a long time ago and don’t feel a need to rehash our address of them every time the MRM does something new. When you advance new arguments, David notes it and we do discuss them.

A Wolverine
A Wolverine
6 years ago

I’m surprised Molyneux isnt hosting a panel on some form of economic crankery, but knowing him he’ll probably go into some ridiculous anti-Semitic/Muslim tangent

Flying Mouse
Flying Mouse
6 years ago

I enjoy the exclamation mark at the end of Mike Buchanan’s lecture title (Let’s get political!) I feel it adds some can-do spirit without sacrificing gravitas.

He’s got the podium for forty-five minutes; I wonder how many times he’ll manage to mention his blog.

Flying Mouse
Flying Mouse
6 years ago

you know, i got a real nice 50s style dress for the conference and everything. plan to curl my hair, wear heels, all that jazz. i can clean up pretty well. give them a nice little monster.

BRB, swooning from Sworebytheprecious’ awesomeness.

strivingally
6 years ago

@Swore: for a bunch of guys who keep saying their group isn’t built on hate, and they are just trying to disseminate ideas, they sure are determined to keep out the sunlight, aren’t they? Is Vice still covering the event, do you know?

pallygirl
pallygirl
6 years ago

Their press conference is two hours long. Do you think they will be able to follow their own “don’t talk normally” instructions for two hours? LOL

I’m curious to know who will be at the press conference, talking, from the AVfM/MRA side. And which press.

Woody
Woody
6 years ago

Right, so Paul posts a notice which effectively says that bigotry and hatefulness will not be tolerated, and this gets him mocked on We Hunted the Mammoth. It’s good to know what is considered mock-worthy around here. Meanwhile, the AVfM staffers will be hosting a human rights conference in Detroit.

Robert Ramirez
Robert Ramirez
6 years ago

If I were a journalist I would try to bait them every chance I would get at the press conference. Probably some will because if you ask a kid to keep away from the cookies, chances are that kid is not going to keep away from the cookies. You know some of those MRA’s are just itching to spout off to the press. This is their time to shine like the misogynistic diamonds they are. Cameras will be on them and every one of them wants to be a star!

strivingally
6 years ago

@woody: come on, you have to actively try to miss the point that hard.

We’re not mocking him for saying bigotry won’t be tolerated – we’re laughing because he’s trying to pretend that his entire group isn’t BUILT on bigotry. If you have to tell your followers to keep their traps shut so some of their hatred against women doesn’t slip out, because non-believers might overhear it, then you’re not honestly representing your group, you’re trying to sugar-coat it.

strivingally
6 years ago

Robert: nobody has to bait anybody. It’s like a Tea Party rally: all you have to do to make them look bad is give them a chance to speak, and quote their words verbatim. But I’m sure there’ll be some claims about “gotcha journalism” and “entrapment” and other garbage when some reporting from this conference does get out.