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Paul Elam to A Voice for Men conference goers: Don’t say terrible things about women in public, because someone might hear you

loose-lips-213

Let’s say, hypothetically, that you run a site that appeals to raving misogynists given to launching into violent anti-woman rants at the drop of a hat. And let’s just say that you have gone to great trouble to organize a conference that is designed to play down the fact that a significant amount of your fanbase is made up of raving misogynists given to launching into violent anti-woman rants at the drop of a hat.

Well, you probably shouldn’t post a public announcement warning the raving misogynists who will be attending your conference to refrain from launching into violent anti-woman rants at the drop of a hat because someone might hear them. Because the fact that you feel it necessary to issue such a warning is kind of a giant clue that a significant number of the conference attendees are raving misogynists given to launching into anti-woman rants at the drop of a hat.

I bring this up because Paul Elam posted just such a warning on his site last night in a post that he labeled “Important Message for AVFM Conference Ticket Holders.”

[T]here will be ideological opponents to the MHRM, including some members of the media, present at the event. Some will be looking for anything they can to hurt us with. They will be listening, eavesdropping, and if they can, gathering things to harm us with.

For that reason, ANYONE sitting around trash-talking women, men, making violent statements, even jokingly, will be brought to the attention of security who will issue ONE warning (or less). After that, they will be directed by security to leave. There are no exceptions.

Please, for all here who are attending, keep this in mind with everything you do and say. Even at after-hours social events, if you hear anyone saying anything that can be used against us, or that makes our gathering toxic, pull them aside politely and say, “Hey, you are hurting us with this. If you want to hang with this group you have to stop it.”

Oh, I suppose I should acknowledge that technically Elam also warned his attendees not to “trash-talk” men either, but the only kinds of men that ever get “trash-talked” on A Voice for Men are men that Elam and his cronies have decided have shown too much respect for women.

I’ve never run across this sort of warning at any other conference I’ve been to, or read about. I’m guessing that when the American Society of Cataract & Refractive Surgery holds its annual trade show it doesn’t have to warn attendees not to bad-mouth their sworn enemies: Ear, Nose and Throat specialists. Or that the Electronic Transactions Association has to specifically forbid its convention-goers from publicly threatening to kill people who still like to pay with cash.

Maybe they do. Maybe they’re just a bit more discreet about it.

At least one of AVFM’s misogynistic fans wasn’t thrilled by the ban on overt women-hating rants.

In the comments to Elam’s post, someone called MGTOW-man complained that,

Of course I understand why attendees can’t be honest about women and men while at venue but what is to stop those ideologues from cherry-picking and distorting things said on AVfM? What is the difference?

Also, bummer! Isn’t part of the reason mhra’s are gathering…to learn more about each other, confirm similarities, discuss philosophies and potential solutions, and forge bonds, etc—especially during socializing time? It will be excruciatingly hard to do this if attendees lips must be sealed.

Will attendees have to take their talk elsewhere if/when they need to be honest but in which outsiders obliviously cry ” hate” because they do not want the truth to be told?

How come outsiders will be allowed in socializing time? Will attendees be allowed any time to gather WITHOUT snooping idiots probing for things to be mean and clueless?

I feel for these poor fellows, trying to come up with topics of conversation that don’t involve how much women suck.

In the comments here on We Hunted the Mammoth, Sir Bodsworth Rugglesby III has offered some suggestions as to what AVFM conference goerscan can talk about if they can’t talk shit about women:

  • the weather
  • incomprehensible poster design
  • the weather
  • correct etiquette for eating cold stew from a can
  • the weather
  • hey do you think Warren Farrell is related to Colin Farrell or is it just a coincidence
  • tie knots — the Windsor vs the Esmay
  • ellipses and the rule of two
  • why all women are bloodsucking monsters. I mean the weather! The weather! Shit.

Hope that helps!

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Stuffed Fantod
6 years ago

They clearly need hall monitors. Dressed a la Esmay.

leftwingfox
6 years ago

And another major difference between “AVFM” and actual social justice movements.

Social Justice: Don’t say X because X is false, hurtful or regressive.

AVFM: Don’t say X because X might make us look bad.

LBT
LBT
6 years ago

I’ve never run across this sort of warning at any other conference I’ve been to, or read about.

I did see a “please be mindful of others’ needs” at WisCon38, which is a sci-fi/fantasy con devoted to… well, basically all people that mainstream sci-fi ignores. But that was just a gentle reminder that some people need space for their wheelchairs. There was absolutely nothing about “please don’t bash white straight cis able-bodied men because they might hear us, teehee.”

Note that at least one of the panelists at WisCon got a ton of death threats, doxxing attempts, and other attacks by white supremacist groups, just for daring to attend and say Europe wasn’t entirely white throughout all of history. And that was just ONE PERSON. I’m positive other folks did too.

So yeah, I’m not buying for one moment that these guys are actually serious about human rights. They’re just using paranoia to close their ranks and fuel their people’s martyr complex.

Melissia
6 years ago

MRAs are always afraid that people will find out the truth, it seems…

deniseeliza
deniseeliza
6 years ago

Yeah, usually when a conference or a convention puts up behavior or harassment warnings, it’s because they disagree with that kind of behavior. Not because it makes them “look bad”.

C’mon, AVFM. Have some decency. Declare hateful and violence speech verboten because you are against hateful and violent speech, not because feminist spies will be eavesdropping.

sadiesummer
6 years ago

Another Quote from the comment section:

“Anthony Zarat MGTOW-man • 11 hours ago
Feminists are not as stupid as you think. What if a male feminist plant attends the conference under my name, and then invites you to a “get it off your chest” chat in a local bar? I have been pretty open about how much I regret that I can’t come, so the feminist would know that there is nobody there to spot them as a plant.
What if after a few drinks you start to loosen up, not knowing that the man is wearing a wire? What if the feminist tells you a made up shocking story of family court abuse, and solidarity compels you to “join in” a session of trash talking women? If this happen, the ONLY thing that you will hear in the media about this conference will be those words.”

Dat paranoia

deniseeliza
deniseeliza
6 years ago

“I have been pretty open about how much I regret that I can’t come, so the feminist would know that there is nobody there to spot them as a plant.”

Wait, so is he claiming that he has super feminist spotting powers that the rest of the HMHRHMH lacks?

cloudiah
6 years ago

Obviously the only way to be “honest” about women is to trash talk them. Not letting men talk shit about women is literally Hitler. Or literally Abraham Lincoln, on Reddit.

cloudiah
6 years ago

ohmydog, Anthony Zarat is still commenting there? Awesome. I miss the days of talking to him about sex robots and splitting the country in two and putting men on one side and women on the other. I’m glad to see he is as paranoid and angry as ever. I was sort of worried he would have imploded in white hot rage by now.

bunnybunny
6 years ago

AVFM is full of women-bashing rants. Putting the kibosh on offline hate speech for a weekend isn’t exactly preventing anyone, including media representatives, from looking up the movement and encountering the bounty of anti-female rhetoric that makes up their website.

jared
jared
6 years ago

I read something like this and that’s why I want to donate even more to DarkHorseSwore. Elam and his crew may be terrified of bad public relations. If some media outlet like 20/20 or another mainstream media outlet got hold of hateful statements directed at women or others, it will confirm a lot of peoples opinions. The mens rights groups will publicly affiliated rightfully so with extremists or other fringe hate groups like the kkk or skinheads. Ironically Dean Esmay claims he is a liberal how the heck can he be a part of an extremist right wing organization like avfm.

I think Elam is doing some type of damage control at this point. It seems he desperately want to present a distorted image to the public that avfm is not hateful and supports women as well. He knows it will not work because the anchorpeople for the networks will surely interview a lot of men who will say stupid comments. This conference will make Elam look really bad to the general public. He is in state of some type of panic. I am sure he Elam will try to point out to the media that there are women (I heard their called honey badgers) mra’s. It should be interesting next week but Elam is scared that the hate against women and other groups at his website will finally be leaked out. I read on another blog that the men attending were also told to dress in suits and be well groomed to portray themselves to look good in the media. What a joke this is.

weirwoodtreehugger
6 years ago

I love how Anthony Zarat is so scared they’ll be tricked into going on misogynist rants. I’ve been drunk many a time. It didn’t turn me into a bigot. In fact, I just get more vocal when I do hear someone say something bigoted. If he wasn’t a misogynist, he wouldn’t be able to be baited into saying something misogynistic by a mole pretending to be an MRA.

Nobody with half a brain bought the tricked into bigotry excuse from Donald Sterling. They aren’t going it buy it from MRAs either.

Amanda Ching
6 years ago

This is going to be like the Monty Python Spam Spam Eggs and Spam skit, if trash talking women is the word Spam.

A Wolverine
A Wolverine
6 years ago

Wont make a difference anyway, Mras idea of what is misogynist doesn’t match the average persons so they’ll just say awful shit without even realizing it

fromafar2013
6 years ago

I’ve been drunk many a time. It didn’t turn me into a bigot. In fact, I just get more vocal when I do hear someone say something bigoted.

One time I was black out drunk at a party in college. Was told the next day that I started ranting about how band aids are racist because my friend cut himself and I went to go get a band aid and all we had were ‘skin tone’ and rainbow unicorn. So I brought him a rainbow unicorn band aid cause “the other ones were being racist.”

LBT
LBT
6 years ago

RE: sadiesummer

“Anthony Zarat MGTOW-man

OMG ANTZ IS BACK! The dude who thought the genders should be separated down the Mississippi River! I wrote a story in his honor, back in the start of my writeathoning!

Dvärghundspossen
6 years ago

“I have been pretty open about how much I regret that I can’t come, so the feminist would know that there is nobody there to spot them as a plant.”

Wait, so is he claiming that he has super feminist spotting powers that the rest of the HMHRHMH lacks?

I think his idea was that if he came, and there were also a feminist there pretending to be Zarat, then the conference would suddenly have two Zarats, and people would realize something fishy was going on… But since Zarat has announced that he’s gonna stay at home, there’s an opportunity for a feminist spy to take his place and pretend to be him.

Anyway, it’s still completely paranoid.

damselindetech
6 years ago

This is one of the reasons they whinge so virulently when people tell them they shouldn’t tell rape jokes. Thinking before you speak is misandry and censorship and hard! “What? Consider the impact of my words like an adult? YU SO HILTER?!!!” I really can’t imagine Paul’s requests for them to mind their P’s and Q’s going over terribly well.

GrumpyOldMan
GrumpyOldMan
6 years ago

If they’re forbidden to say nasty things about women, it will be one hell of a quiet conference.

Chaos-Engineer
Chaos-Engineer
6 years ago

For that reason, ANYONE sitting around trash-talking women, men, making violent statements, even jokingly, will be brought to the attention of security who will issue ONE warning (or less). After that, they will be directed by security to leave. There are no exceptions.

Please, for all here who are attending, keep this in mind with everything you do and say. Even at after-hours social events, if you hear anyone saying anything that can be used against us, or that makes our gathering toxic, pull them aside politely and say, “Hey, you are hurting us with this. If you want to hang with this group you have to stop it.”

Wait a minute. So if people make remarks that women might find offensive, then convention staff is going to throw them out? And the ordinary convention-goers are going to be encouraged to help enforce the policy when convention staff isn’t around? And they’re all OK with this?

This is rather…unexpected. I would have expected a lot of howling about the “PC Police”, and a lot of whining that they won’t be allowed to try to flirt with women at the bar under these rules. (Because they can’t figure out how to flirt without being offensive.)

I know it’s not the best anti-harassment policy in the world, but it’s still better than some non-MRA groups have been able to manage.

LBT
LBT
6 years ago

RE: Dvarghundspossen

But since Zarat has announced that he’s gonna stay at home, there’s an opportunity for a feminist spy to take his place and pretend to be him.

My time has come! *throws off black cloak* I have been deceiving all of you Mammoths for years! I AM ZARAT! Also Owly, Tom Martin, and George Washington. CHECKMATE FEMINISTS.

Auntie Alias
Auntie Alias
6 years ago

Hahaha!! I’m so glad you lampooned this one, David.

I am sure he Elam will try to point out to the media that there are women (I heard their called honey badgers) mra’s.

Oh they have that covered already. The FeMRAs are going to act as human shields! I kid you not.

Adam
Adam
6 years ago

Yeah, I don’t think that’ll stop them.

jared
jared
6 years ago

It will be nuts having all these nutty mra’s who have hidden behind their computers in the so called manosphere out in public. All these manosphere bloggers coming out in public. It will be a rather interesting scene nonetheless. Elam and Esmay are somehow claiming there will be legitimate workshops on mens issues and they expect a lot of men there representing their hateful forums like reddit mens rights and others.

That is why it would be good if DarkHorseSwore or some other like minded reporter is in the conference observing these workshops, Then the real deal of all the hate going with these guys. I am curious if any other feminist blogs such as Feministe or any others will also try to send someone there. But a lot people may think it is better to just ignore the conference. Imo if your going in there in Detroit it is better to just fully expose this hate movement for what it is so the general public will know how hateful these mra’s are.

K. Ron Silkwood (@K_Ron_Silkwood)

So, in short: “Don’t do or say anything that we always do or say.”

Taino
Taino
6 years ago

“A Voice for Men recently organized a conference in Detroit that gained so much backlash the hotel housing the conference insisted the group purchase $2 million of insurance after receiving violent threats.”
–National Review

This is getting ridiculous.

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/380785/mens-rights-and-feminist-movements-should-get-married-christine-sisto

Jean-François
6 years ago

I wonder if anyone would actually be able to infiltrate their movement and then destroy it from within. Like an agent provocateur or something, inciting other people to do stuff like write death threats in paper letters instead of on twitter, which is somehow way more illegal.

I mean, the Canadian gov’t actually did/does some of that stuff with socialist & environmentalist groups. It’s practically standard procedure these days.

Come to think of it, organizing a big media-scrutinized public event would be pretty damaging to the MRAs…maybe Elam himself is the agent provocateur and he’s deliberately organizing an event that will doom them all?

Taino
Taino
6 years ago

According to the National Review:

“The men’s movement, as it stands now, is not sophisticated enough to have an impact akin to the impact that feminism continues to have.”

So staying in front of it is all that may need to be done. Destroying it may require a lot of wasted energy.

LBT
LBT
6 years ago

RE: Jean-Francois

maybe Elam himself is the agent provocateur and he’s deliberately organizing an event that will doom them all?

You’re giving the dude way too much credit. They can’t even get their movement off the ground; I doubt they’d NEED an infiltrator.

Emmy Rae
Emmy Rae
6 years ago

If LBT is Zarat, but we’re all David, then David is Zarat!!! This site is a sham set up to trick feminists into making fun of MRAs, but we’re all David, who is Zarat, so we’ve been making fun of ourselves all along!

what?

LBT
LBT
6 years ago

EVERYONE IS EVERYONE

OH GOD

freshlysqueezedcynic
freshlysqueezedcynic
6 years ago

“Dean Esmay claims he is a liberal”

Dean Esmay is one of those right-wing libertarians who claims he’s a “real liberal” or a “classical liberal” and that modern American liberalism is just socialist and horrible.

never mind that classical liberals and modern libertarians are somewhat different as well in outlook and analysis, what matters is what the word meant 150 years ago, not today.

zoon echon logon
zoon echon logon
6 years ago

@Chaos-Engineer

This is rather…unexpected. I would have expected a lot of howling about the “PC Police”, and a lot of whining that they won’t be allowed to try to flirt with women at the bar under these rules. (Because they can’t figure out how to flirt without being offensive.)

I don’t doubt there would be unrest, if AVFM tolerated any dissent.

jared
jared
6 years ago

“Dean Esmay is one of those right-wing libertarians who claims he’s a “real liberal” or a “classical liberal” and that modern American liberalism is just socialist and horrible”

Yeah I remember some mra bloggers mocking Esmay with because he had a long beard and calling him a hippie. However, Esmay can try to sound articulate and that he is an advocate for genuine mens issues like suicide and rape but he refuses to acknowledge the hate coming from his movement. This is just pure foolishness on his part. The scary part is I read somewhere that Esmay is being so called mentored now to take over a voice for men as Elams getting old. Avfm is nothing but atrocious.

strivingally
6 years ago

Oh my Dog, this is hilarious.

‘Please, for all here who are attending, keep this in mind with everything you do and say. Even at after-hours social events, if you hear anyone saying anything that can be used against us, or that makes our gathering toxic, pull them aside politely and say, “Hey, you are hurting us with this. If you want to hang with this group you have to stop it.”’

Dear MRAs: this is almost word-for-word the advice given to men who wish to make a difference in the negative beliefs their friends have towards women, and to try and change attitudes towards consent (good!) and sexual assault (bad!). Allow me to demonstrate:

‘Please, for all here who are attending, keep this in mind with everything you do and say. Even at after-hours social events, if you hear anyone saying anything that suggests they think consent is optional, or that makes our gathering intimidating for women, pull them aside politely and say, “Hey, you are hurting everyone with this. If you want to hang with this group you have to stop it.”’

IFTFY 😀

Auntie Alias
Auntie Alias
6 years ago

strivingally, it’s only misandry when it comes to consent!

The scary part is I read somewhere that Esmay is being so called mentored now to take over a voice for men as Elams getting old.

That’s a lot more palatable than John Hembling. He’s one scary dude.

Shaenon
6 years ago

Obviously the only way to be “honest” about women is to trash talk them.

But if anyone quotes these honest comments that are truthful and philosophical and the entire reason for attending the conference, they’re “cherry-picking” and “distorting.”

It’s so much fun to see Zarat again. I see he’s developed special feminist-spotting powers that no other MRAs possess. Good for him.

Bone Lady
Bone Lady
6 years ago

So, do they have an actual harassment policy? (For either men OR women?) If so, is it as strict as their “no trashing women” policy? Enquiring minds want to know! This is getting really interesting.

Jordan
Jordan
6 years ago

To every commenter who directed their note to “MRAs”:

You just proved this quote as legitimate:
“[T]here will be ideological opponents to the MHRM, including some members of the media, present at the event. Some will be looking for anything they can to hurt us with. They will be listening, eavesdropping, and if they can, gathering things to harm us with.

For that reason, ANYONE sitting around trash-talking women, men, making violent statements, even jokingly, will be brought to the attention of security who will issue ONE warning (or less). After that, they will be directed by security to leave. There are no exceptions.”

He’s just one man, and you portrayed his beliefs on every person in the Mens Rights Group.

And despite this being hilarious:

“I’m guessing that when the American Society of Cataract & Refractive Surgery holds its annual trade show it doesn’t have to warn attendees not to bad-mouth their sworn enemies: Ear, Nose and Throat specialists.”

Those groups aren’t analogous at all. Those specialists wouldn’t be enemies, people don’t choose between their Eye, Ear, Nose and Throat specialists. A better analogy is a Liberal convention sending a message out to their members not to say disparaging things about the Conservatives. Which happens all the time.

Ergo, this isn’t news. It’s a circle jerk.

Quackers
Quackers
6 years ago

@Shaenon

Really, the constant claim that their words are being “distorted” and “cherry picked” is getting old. All this blog and most other people who have researched and thus speak out against MRAs do is quote them verbatim. They might as well just say “don’t tell others my exact words!!!”

And yeah. To them “telling the truth” is claiming women are cunty whores destroying civilization for sleeping with bad boys, (unlike such nice misogynists themselves)

Let them speak, let them conference and if there are protests, print their articles straight from their sites and paste them on signs or hand them out to passerbys (or perhaps set up a table with them?) If there is any ounce of humanity left in a society that, for the most part, doesn’t hate women, then AVFM and MRAs will be destroyed by their own words.

sarah
sarah
6 years ago

MGTOW-man continues:
“I understand that there are some hateful people who despise the truth we speak that will buy tickets and then get inside to trash women or men so to make it look like all of us are bad, bad people. Anyone doing that should be immediately removed as well as any suspicious “media” that is peculiarly tagging along (cohorts). Also, in my opinion, any media person that is suspected of being a cohort of such a lying troll should HAVE to relinquish any recording(s)…since it is dishonest…and should have pre-consented before entry into the conference.”

Elam is now asking for “donations” of $20 a person for the live youtube feed, and states:

“Additionally, select tweets will be displayed on the video feed (but not who they’re from). Remember that this is live television that bears AVfM’s logo, and constructive tweets free from profanity are more likely to be chosen than others.”

In a post describing Janet as their social media director.
LULZ.

LBT
LBT
6 years ago

Man, I wish I could construct a racket on Elam’s level. That money would be good!

Probably not enough to pay for the cost of my ethics, though.

Quackers
Quackers
6 years ago

Also I bet 5 scented candles that they wont be able to keep their mouths shut from saying rude things if any of the protesters are overweight, non conventionaly attractive. Oh who am I kidding, even if they are conventionally attractive!

Auntie Alias
Auntie Alias
6 years ago

a lying troll should HAVE to relinquish any recording(s)…since it is dishonest…and should have pre-consented before entry into the conference.

But it’s perfectly okay for them to make prohibited audio recordings of a panel discussion at Queen’s University after promising they wouldn’t.

Elam is now asking for “donations” of $20 a person for the live youtube feed

What a racket. First they said they’d need the entire 30K they raised for security. Then Deano said the surplus would be put toward next year’s conference. So if there is a surplus, why not pay for the live feed costs from that?

brooked
brooked
6 years ago

@Taino

“The men’s movement, as it stands now, is not sophisticated enough to have an impact akin to the impact that feminism continues to have.”

LOL, that quite an understatement from the National Review. The MRM have the grand total of one book sort of associated with their movement, which was written 20 years ago and is a fucking disaster. No recognizable conservative critic of feminism, such as Christina Hoff Sommers, would touch them with a ten foot pool. Not that they could afford Sommers even if she was willing to go slumming with these losers.

So staying in front of it is all that may need to be done. Destroying it may require a lot of wasted energy.

Talking about destroying the MRM seems a bit melodramatic, even if it were possible IMO. It really isn’t an actual movement, it’s just a bunch of virulent anti-feminist reactionary cranks who found each other on the internet. I think by highlighting their bullshit we can facilitate their tendency to reveal their hate group mentality and publicly discredit them.

cloudiah
6 years ago

:: waves HI at Quackers ::

jared
jared
6 years ago

“Also I bet 5 scented candles that they wont be able to keep their mouths shut from saying rude things if any of the protesters are overweight, non conventionaly attractive. Oh who am I kidding, even if they are conventionally attractive.”

Ahhh that explains it .The other day I ran across a comment from one the mra bloggers I think it may have been mens rights reddit where some mra’s were telling that other mra that they were going wear nice suits and urging other mra’s to look their best an be well groomed.
These guys are trying to do damage control to portray themselves to the news media. It just seems Elam is getting more paranoid and secretive about what is going to go on at the conference

Obviously these idiots are more and more cunningly trying to promote the various seminars that will go in there as some sort of groundbreaking breakthrough that will help men. Geez this is going to backfire on them. Elam claims a big turnout which in a way gives a better chance for any of these morons to say something bigoted and stupid. The more stupid bigoted comments that is published in the media the better chance a voice for men will be revealed as the hate group it is.

thebewilderness
thebewilderness
6 years ago

I confess that I will be impressed if they are able to get their armchair activists to show up at a conference. Tragical that ANTZ cannot attend. I am sure he would be as big a hit there as he was here.

brooked
brooked
6 years ago

@Jordon

A better analogy is a Liberal convention sending a message out to their members not to say disparaging things about the Conservatives. Which happens all the time.

That actually never happens. I’ve been to conservative, liberal and leftist gatherings and people criticize their ideological opponents at all of them nonstop. I’ve never been to a hate group get-together however and that’s where self-censoring your hate speech is essential, if you are pretending to be a non-hate group.

mildlymagnificent
6 years ago

Insurance. Either these people have never owned a house or a business or they’ve never actually read their policies.

My house insurance covers $2 million for injuries and other liabilities for guests and casual household workers. When we ran our business, the absolute minimum coverage for personal injuries there was $20 million.

Everybody who owns or runs anything has to be covered for the possibility that someone may fall on or off something, someone may slip on something or walk through a sheet of glass or a gazillion other potential mishaps and be seriously injured and/or permanently incapacitated.

There’s nothing special about $2 million coverage. Not even about $2 million special or extra coverage. (I would have thought the personal injury risk for any conference would be higher than this amount. All you’d need would be for someone higher on a staircase to fall and thereby knock over a few people lower down. Given what we know about US health costs, $2 million would barely get you out of the gate.)

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