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Why is A Voice for Men giving a platform to one of Canada’s leading opponents of gay and lesbian rights? [UPDATED with AVFM response]

 

Gay marriage isn't a men's right, according to AVFM conference speaker Anne Cools
Gay marriage isn’t a men’s right, according to AVFM conference speaker Anne Cools

A Voice for Men likes to present itself as a voice for gay men as well as straight ones. In a recent post, site founder and chief fulminator Paul Elam declared that

We regard men as human beings, regardless of their sexuality. And most of us feel that this is the salve that heals what has in recent history been inflicted on gay men.

No mention of lesbians, but of course they’re women, and Elam does not seem to like women very much.

AVFM managing editor Dean Esmay, meanwhile, likes to present himself as a champion not only of gay men but of lesbians as well, boasting in one recent tweet that “I have been lesbian-supporting since the ’80s.”

So why is AVFM giving a platform to one of Canada’s most influential opponents of same-sex marriage  — and gay and lesbian rights in general?

Canadian Senator Anne Cools, one of the scheduled speakers at AVFM’s upcoming “Men’s Issues” conference in Detroit, has been a staunch opponent of same-sex marriage for decades.

Her objection? That only heterosexual marriage deserves legal protection because gay people can’t make babies – at least not with each other – thus making their interest in sex all about lust.

In a speech before the Canadian senate, she argued that

The public interest in marriage is reproduction, the continuation of the species, the offspring. There is no public interest in sex or the gratification of sexual impulses for their own sake. …

[L]ust, like all human passions, is not to be trusted. Lust and sex on their own have no public character and contain no public interest or public good. Marriage is about man and woman in a peculiar act of bringing forth offspring.

Never mind that plenty of stright couples don’t, or can’t, have kids. Or that some trans men can.

She’s not simply an opponent of same-sex marriage. Cools has consistently opposed other legislation designed to afford gays and lesbians the same basic rights as straight people — and the same legal protections as other victims of bigotry and discrimination.

She opposed adding “sexual orientation” to hate speech legislation, warning that doing so would expose “millions of Canadians…who hold moral opinions about sexuality, to criminal prosecution.” (Needless to say, the passage of the bill in question did not lead to millions of Canadians being rounded up and arrested.)

She also worried that adding “sexual orientation” to hate speech legislation would somehow – I don’t quite understand the logic – encourage the “depathologizing the paraphilias” and ultimately lead to children being “seduced” into dangerous sexual activities. Here’s her argument:

The fact of the matter is, honourable senators, that we discourage children from smoking cigarettes because tobacco is harmful. I would submit that we are talking about some sexual activities that are dangerous and life-threatening. The committee should have the moral courage to hear something of it. I have lost a lot of beloved friends to a variety of these conditions. I have made it my business to instruct myself. That is the first question. You can think about that.

Ms. Landolt, your concern that the term “sexual orientation” is so wide as to involve a wide range of sexual behaviours is well founded. I would like to put on the record here for this committee a document called the Journal of Homosexuality, particularly, volume 20 in 1990. The subject of the entire volume is pedophilia and male intergenerational intimacy, historical, social, psychological and legal perspectives. If you were to open up this text, the foreword is the debate on pedophilia, and the second article is “Man-Boy Relationships: Different Concepts for a Diversity of Phenomena.” It continues with “Pederasty Among Primitives and Institutionalized Initiation.”

She continued:

I want to know about these children out there and the impact that this is having on them, and, in addition to that, all of these children who are being seduced at youthful ages and who are discovering what is happening to them two or three years later. I have done a lot of counselling. I would like to get a greater picture of the problems out there for children on these grounds, because this sexual orientation debate is going on here as though children do not exist.

She also tried to raise the question of “the medical consequences to individuals who involve themselves in activities such as ‘rimming,’ … sado-masochism and so on.”

In explaining her opposition to adding sexual orientation ito the Canadian Human Rights Act, she offered a similar “slippery slope” argument:

The concern is that pederasts and paedophiles will advance claims to engage in adult/child sexual relationships as a matter of human rights; that claims will be advanced on the legal grounds that pederasty and paedophilia are sexual orientations having entitlements.

For more on her various backwards views, as well as the source of that last quote, see here.

On Twitter, I asked Esmay to explain why AVFM is providing a platform for a woman who opposes same-sex marriage. He hasn’t replied.

Another curious Twitterer asked the same question of Janet Bloomfield, the official spokeswoman for the upcoming AVFM conference. She handled the question with her usual (lack of) aplomb.

Alex McKenzie ‏@anArchaeopteryx 3h  @JudgyBitch1 The issue here is that there's a speaker at your conference who is against the rights of gay men. And you're PR, so I ask why.      Reply     Retweet     Favorite  JanetBloomfield ‏@JudgyBitch1 3h  @anArchaeopteryx Her views on shared custody are more relevant. We include a diverse array of speakers with different views @avoiceformen      Reply     Retweet     1 Favorite  Alex McKenzie ‏@anArchaeopteryx 3h  @JudgyBitch1 at a conference for <<men>>      Reply     Retweet     Favorite  JanetBloomfield ‏@JudgyBitch1 3h  @anArchaeopteryx That is not for you to decide @AVoiceForMen @deanesmay Discussion closed. Further tweets will be considered harassment

Apparently AVFM’s much vaunted “compassion for men and boys” doesn’t apply to gay men who want the same basic rights as straight men.

For more on AVFM’s tolerance of homophobia – and Elam’s notorious attack on one trans women, see here.

EDIT: After I put this post up, I decided to see if I might have better luck at getting answers from Bloomfield on Twitter. The conversation went about as well as could be expected. Remember, Bloomfield is AVFM’s offical “social media” spokeswoman for the conference.

 David Futrelle ‏@DavidFutrelle  @JudgyBitch1 Why is AVFM providing a platform for one of Canada's most influential opposents of gay rights? http://wp.me/p17cYK-3bW       Reply     Delete     Favorite  12:23 PM - 19 Jun 2014 Tweet text Reply to @JudgyBitch1       JanetBloomfield ‏@JudgyBitch1 20m      @DavidFutrelle Because she also one of Canada's most influential supporters of children and father's rights after divorce.     Details         Reply         Retweet         Favorite     David Futrelle ‏@DavidFutrelle 19m      @JudgyBitch1 So the fact that she's been actively campaigning against gay and lesbian rights for decades doesn't bother you at all?     Details         Reply         Retweet         1 Favorite         Delete     JanetBloomfield ‏@JudgyBitch1 15m      @DavidFutrelle I vigorously denounce the anti-gay rights agenda. I don't have to agree with 100% of her beliefs. She cares for men and boys     Details         Reply         Retweet         Favorite     David Futrelle ‏@DavidFutrelle 13m      @JudgyBitch1 If you denounce her agenda, will you publicly denounce her for pushing this agenda? If not, why not?     Details         Reply         Retweet         1 Favorite         Delete     David Futrelle ‏@DavidFutrelle 11m      @JudgyBitch1 If you don't want to be seen as endorsing her agenda, put out a statement explicitly denouncing her for supporting this agenda     Details         Reply         Retweet         Favorite         Delete     JanetBloomfield ‏@JudgyBitch1 11m      @DavidFutrelle You think Twitter is private? Of course I would, I know how to criticize respectfully. Don't always choose to though.     Details         Reply         Retweet         Favorite     David Futrelle ‏@DavidFutrelle 10m      @JudgyBitch1 Is she being paid for speaking at your conference, or being provided with lodging, transportation expenses, and so on?     Details         Reply         Retweet         Favorite         Delete     JanetBloomfield ‏@JudgyBitch1 9m      @DavidFutrelle None of your business @avoiceformen @deanesmay     Details         Reply         Retweet         Favorite     JanetBloomfield ‏@JudgyBitch1 9m      @DavidFutrelle You do not get a say.     Details         Reply         Retweet         Favorite     David Futrelle ‏@DavidFutrelle 9m      @JudgyBitch1 Well, let's hear you specifically, and officially, repudiate her for supporting a bigoted agenda.     Details         Reply         Retweet         1 Favorite         Delete     JanetBloomfield ‏@JudgyBitch1 8m      @DavidFutrelle I do not take orders from you. I don't take orders from anyone, actually.     Details         Reply         Retweet         Favorite     David Futrelle ‏@DavidFutrelle 7m      @JudgyBitch1 That's not the issue.The issue is whether AVFM supports Cools and her anti-gay agenda.If it doesn't, you should probably say so     Details         Reply         Retweet         1 Favorite         Delete     JanetBloomfield ‏@JudgyBitch1 6m      @DavidFutrelle This issue is closed. Any further tweets will be taken as harassment and you will be blocked.dfjb2dfjb3

I didn’t see her comment about harassment until after I tweeted a couple more times.

David Futrelle ‏@DavidFutrelle 15m  @JudgyBitch1 I'm not issuing orders.But if you don't want people to think AVFM supports her bigoted anti-gay agenda,you should repudiate her Details      Reply     Retweet     Favorite     Delete  David Futrelle ‏@DavidFutrelle 14m  @JudgyBitch1 Or at the very least issue a statement officially saying that AVFM opposes her anti-gay agenda. Details      Reply     Retweet     Favorite     Delete  JanetBloomfield ‏@JudgyBitch1 14m  @DavidFutrelle Go write a column about it, David. Get us even more press. We could use Canadian coverage. And good-bye. You were warned. Details      Reply     Retweet     Favorite  David Futrelle ‏@DavidFutrelle 13m  @JudgyBitch1 Would you have a racist speak at your conference if he or she supported your position on some other issue?

Some more bang-up public relations work from Ms. Bloomfield here.

 

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thebewilderness
thebewilderness
6 years ago

There was a goodly bit of discussion in the feminist blogosphere a few years back about whether or not it is appropriate for feminists to support same sex marriage when so many of us oppose marriage altogether. We got it sorted without much trouble.

strivingally
6 years ago

Not a typo, guys. 😉

Kevin’s Law: “If the best evidence of wackjobism you can find is a few anonymous nutballs commenting on a blog, then the particular brand of wackjobism you’re complaining about must not be very widespread after all.”

damselindetech
6 years ago

So, a message board that some have heard of but few outside TERFs have visited say bad shit and that means DF is full of doodie and caca because… ?

If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it, is DF still responsible for not denouncing it? According to Matheus the answer is a resounding “Fuck you.”

thebewilderness
thebewilderness
6 years ago

I would appreciate it if you would stop using that pejorative against women, damselindetech.

LBT
LBT
6 years ago

It’s not even that, damselindistech. We’ve had TERFs here, had one just the other day, and we ran her off in short order. We’ve had numerous assholes of varying stripes we’ve chased off and denounced.

Matheus is acting like the folks of the defunct RadFemHub is to us as Cools is to AVFM.

The difference is, of course, that David NEVER let any of those assholes here, while AVFM is having Cools AT THEIR FREAKING CON.

Matheus is trying to compare apples to oranges. By his logic, is David doesn’t refute every assholic thing every feminist ever said, than he’s a hypocrite, even though it’s freakin’ IMPOSSIBLE. While AVFM can’t even take responsibility for the speakers of their own damn con.

Responsibility, my ass.

LBT
LBT
6 years ago

RE: thebewilderness

I would appreciate it if you would stop using that pejorative against women,

What, TERF? How is it perjorative to say that they were transphobic?

tealily
tealily
6 years ago

Interesting how they are taking steps to make sure their little tea party isn’t disrupted the way they have no problem disrupting feminist events.

Then again, that’s the bottom line. The MRM doesn’t want to be treated the way they’ve treated women.

strivingally
6 years ago

Then again, that’s the bottom line. The MRM doesn’t want to be treated the way they’ve treated women.

QFT. I’m pretty sure that’s ultimately where all this “they want to enslave teh mens!” garbage comes from.

Auntie Alias
Auntie Alias
6 years ago

LBT, re the tickets: I know, right? Here’s more detail:

All tickets will be held in “will call” until your arrival at the event. You will need a government issued photo ID with you. We strongly suggest bringing a copy of the PayPal transaction receipt with you to avoid any confusion, especially in case the tickets have been purchased in a name different than who will actually be attending.
[…]
IMPORTANT: Registration begins at 08:45 EDT, where you will present your ID and receive your ticket, lanyard and pass. In most cases, your pass will be pre-printed with the name with which you paid for your ticket. In the event that this name does not match your ID, you must provide us your legal name by email from the same address from which you paid for your ticket before the event. If you do not want your legal name used on your pass, we will issue a new badge on which you can hand-write a name.

Elam is enjoying this cloak and dagger stuff a little too much.

Leum
Leum
6 years ago

There was a goodly bit of discussion in the feminist blogosphere a few years back about whether or not it is appropriate for feminists to support same sex marriage when so many of us oppose marriage altogether. We got it sorted without much trouble.

In the LGBT community the question was never really resolved, but the radical queers* stopped talking to the non-radical LGBT people**and vice versa, so it kinda solved itself. Except for people like me who’re non-radical but highly sympathetic to the radical position, we just kinda sit on the sidelines.

*Who generally self-identify as “queer” which is why I’m using the term

*Not sure what to call them, because they only exist in relation to the radical queers who use the derogative terms “assimilationist” and “homonormative” to describe them.

damselindetech
6 years ago

Sorry, which pejorative, thebewilderness?

@LBT – Welp. I think you’ve said it all. I’ll wait with popcorn for Mattheus’ glorious retort.

brooked
brooked
6 years ago

@zoon echon logon

Right, I’m sure the AVFM crowd will be able to self-police their own misogyny. Because they are very self aware and know how they sound to outsiders.

I too am a wee bit skeptical.

This reminds me of when 2013 CPAC (Conservative Political Action Committee), a major US young conservative conference that has been around for decades, had a panel on racism that went to holy hell. The panel was, uh, problematic from the start because it’s title had so much racial dog whistling that it sounds like a parody: ‘Trump the Race Card: Are You Sick and Tired of Being Called a Racist and You Know You’re Not One?’. CPAC had it peak racist moment when a southern college student, who for real started a campus white nationalist group at his school, used that panel’s Q and A to denounce “multiculturalism”, which seems to be his code word for segregation, and complain about how unfair it is that he can’t be a 1950s style racist these days.

See it’s hard for contemporary US political conservatism, which historically has a strong element of noticeable racism meant to drive white people from the Democratic Party, to put it’s nice people pants and pretend it has a strong anti-racist tradition. In fact CPAC main “race” panel was mostly about having a black conservative make white conservatives who have been called racist feel better by pointing out that Lincoln was a Republican. Yet even this weak-ass attempt to deny their racism blew up because it’s racism popped it’s head up the moment the panel’s audience had a chance to speak it’s mind.

So if AVfM thinks that it’s volatile “anti-feminism” isn’t going to spin into outright vocal misogyny at it’s reactionary get-together, well, good luck with that. I have posted about David’s tweeter feed, and have been utterly fascinated by it, because the core AVfM leadership has been losing it’s shit and hectoring their most familiar critic in a way that takes unprofessionalism to incredible new heights. They have been ranting about “gendercide” and pimping their voluminous collection of Radfem Hub message board screenshots because they have convinced themselves that this qualifies as a death-blow grade “gotcha” that somehow defeats feminism and gives their reactionary kvetching social respectability. And when David, and everyone who is not them, doesn’t agree with them because they are comically wrong-headed they explode into a maniacal hissy fit. Seriously, I desperately hope this conference happens because it’s going to eventually derail and Vice will have delectable video of the whole spectacle.

To AVfM fans: Don’t blame David for the fact that the website’s leadership is shitting it’s pants on Twitter because of it’s pre-conference jitters. Pro tip: if you are a hanger-on of a “human rights” group who decides to be it’s PR flack, don’t use your personal twitter handle, make inappropriate jokes, think saying “all publicity is good publicity” defuses a problem, be quick to explode in rage and fling obscenity laced attacks at your critics.

Here’s very funny coverage of the 2013 CPAC panel by a humor columnist at Daily Kos:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/03/15/1194459/-CPAC-2013-The-racism-at-CPAC#

GrumpyOldMan
GrumpyOldMan
6 years ago

“Where are all these castrating, doxxing feminists with boxcutters I’ve heard so much about?”
Are you qualified as a neurosurgeon? If not, you can’t go to where they are.

kittehserf
6 years ago

What perjorative, thebewilderness? I didn’t see anything except TERF, and that’s no perjorative. It’s about extremely transphobic people and TERF =/= all radical feminists.

Auntie Alias
Auntie Alias
6 years ago

@brooked

Vice will have delectable video of the whole spectacle.

I was sure I’d seen something about this but couldn’t find it again. Is Vice filming the entire thing? Also, in the comments Elam mentioned a live stream will be available.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

I still haven’t figured out if the possibility that Vice may end up mocking the shit out of them hasn’t occurred to them or if they’re just really committed to the whole any publicity is good publicity theory.

A Wolverine
A Wolverine
6 years ago

@cassandrakitty
Mra seem to have this odd idea that the average person will react positively towards them upon learning about their movement.
As far as I can tell this isnt the case, I’ve seen 4chan users who whine about Sarkeesian say the Mra are ridiculous

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

They really do seem to think that. Why, I’m not sure, since other than incels and PUAs pretty much everyone else thinks they’re reality challenged weirdos. Even guys who’re pretty sexist in a mainstream dudebro kind of way mostly seem to think they’re ridiculous, and ultra conservative dudes are put off by the sleaziness.

strivingally
6 years ago

I liken these guys to the Marxist-socialist student activists I went to uni with who were convinced that the overwhelming majority of people in the world would spontaneously flock to their banner as soon as somebody just *explained* their position properly.

Needless to say that attitude – that you’re right and your position is so compelling that people will completely convert to your way of thinking upon hearing it – leads to a bunch of frustration when it turns out that actually a lot of people disagree with you, or simply don’t care.

The complete lack of self-awareness about how hateful, aggressive and spiteful they sound is the best trait about these guys – it keeps them from being able to put a plausible amount of polite gloss over their hatred.

strivingally
6 years ago

@cassandrakitty: my favourite example of people being put off by the douchebros is when Penny Arcade’s Mike Krahulik (aka Gabe) had only heard a tiny bit about PUAs and said something positive about them. Gabe’s issues with anxiety were public knowledge at that point, so he could empathise with the idea of learning how to become more confident when talking to women.

Then he started getting messages of support from the PUA community. They creeped him out to the point where he publicly disavowed them.

Let’s be clear, we’re not talking about a bleeding heart social justice warrior. Gabe’s been called out many times for transphobic attitudes, minimising the ongoing trauma suffered by rape survivors, and generally being unapologetic when someone lets him know he’s being offensive. But even he was disgusted and offended at how people who were *on his side* were talking about women.

So utterly unaware of how they sound to people who haven’t drunk the Kool-Aid. Thank goodness.

pallygirl
pallygirl
6 years ago

This cracking down on people attending the conference business- and not just “journalists”*, and the order to restrict discussions, both of which are really weird, reminds me of the saying “you can’t polish a turd but you can roll it in glitter”.

Although the theatrics of what AVfM is doing for the conference will encourage already-conspiracy minded members in their conspiracy thinking. When your followers have the debating and logical reasoning skills of a 3-year-old, these types of magic tricks work.

pallygirl
pallygirl
6 years ago

Gah, forgot to explain the *

* as in, “journalists defined as such by AVfM”.

brooked
brooked
6 years ago

@freshlysqueezedcynic

As other people have said, you’re correct and that’s a blog about an interview in which a gay man discusses how feminism can strengthen the argument for gay marriage. It’s super short too, so it’s unlikely this was an epic reading comprehension fail on her part. JudgyB isn’t even making a minimal effort to be intellectually honest.

Auntie Alias
Auntie Alias
6 years ago

With ‘friends’ like JB, who needs feminists? 😉

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

@ strivingally

That’s exactly what I mean. Even the guys who on the surface seem the most likely candidates to sympathize with the manosphere are often horrified when exposed to it on a level deeper than “men have rights too!” comments on Facebook.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

@ Auntie Alias

JB lies like a cheap rug.

brooked
brooked
6 years ago

@Aunty Alias

Vice won’t get everything obviously, but I hope they’ll be there for the whole duration and I’m pretty confident about the conference blowing up at some point. The CPAC panel I discussed was filmed by ThinkProgess and AVfM could cover-up any ugly incidents by preventing others from filming and not posting it themselves, unless there are masochists willing to watch the entire live feed as it happens.

Auntie Alias
Auntie Alias
6 years ago

@brooked, I’d be interested in watching some of the train wreck but not the usual hucksters whose rhetoric is predictable; i.e. Farrell and the AVFM clowns. The only problem is my computer overheats and goes to sleep spontaneously, particularly during videos, so watching a live stream will be dicey.

Marie
Marie
6 years ago

@fruitloopsie

Random question: I call gays and lesbians ‘homosexuals’ does that bother anyone?

eH. I don’t like it much, but I don’t think it’s offensive, more of just a personal preference. Just dont call us ‘people of homosexual orientation’ and you should be fine XD

@Leum

Yes, enormously so. The term “homosexual” has become a slur that is used by the Christian right to make LG (and bi) people sound diseased. I have more negative associations with the term “homosexual” than I do with “faggot.”

Ok, well it doesn’t bug me but since it bugs leum I’ll go with don’t use it.

I realize I could just delete this comment now, but I really want to post it so everyone knows someone (my stepmom! Yay!) calls gay people ‘people of homosexual orientation’. Because seh’s a fucking homophobe and seem sto get awkward even just saying ‘gay’, unless it’s in a homophobic joke.

@DJG

f using “same-sexer” or “opposite-sexer” when not specifying between monosexuality and bisexuality.

I’d do same sex and different sex? Because there aren’t just two binary sexes :/ Eitehr way I’m not a big fan of the same-sexer etc thing.

@brooked

The panel was, uh, problematic from the start because it’s title had so much racial dog whistling that it sounds like a parody: ‘Trump the Race Card: Are You Sick and Tired of Being Called a Racist and You Know You’re Not One?’

Wow. that sounds like a terrible pannel.

Marie
Marie
6 years ago

And my commment got stuck in moderation what fun. tryign agian:

@fruitloopsie

Random question: I call gays and lesbians ‘homosexuals’ does that bother anyone?

eH. I don’t like it much, but I don’t think it’s offensive, more of just a personal preference. Just dont call us ‘people of homosexual orientation’ and you should be fine XD

@Leum

Yes, enormously so. The term “homosexual” has become a slur that is used by the Christian right to make LG (and bi) people sound diseased. I have more negative associations with the term “homosexual” than I do with “f**got.”

Ok, well it doesn’t bug me but since it bugs leum I’ll go with don’t use it.

I realize I could just delete this comment now, but I really want to post it so everyone knows someone (my stepmom! Yay!) calls gay people ‘people of homosexual orientation’. Because seh’s a fucking homophobe and seem sto get awkward even just saying ‘gay’, unless it’s in a homophobic joke.

@DJG

f using “same-sexer” or “opposite-sexer” when not specifying between monosexuality and bisexuality.

I’d do same sex and different sex? Because there aren’t just two binary sexes :/ Eitehr way I’m not a big fan of the same-sexer etc thing.

@brooked

The panel was, uh, problematic from the start because it’s title had so much racial dog whistling that it sounds like a parody: ‘Trump the Race Card: Are You Sick and Tired of Being Called a Racist and You Know You’re Not One?’

Wow. that sounds like a terrible pannel.

MaudeLL
6 years ago

I’m a bit late, but Auntie Alias’ link has another interesting bit, from commenter mgtow-man. Responding to Paul asking people not to say hateful things about women:

Of course I understand why attendees can’t be honest about women and men while at venue but what is to stop those ideologues from cherry-picking and distorting things said on AVfM? What is the difference?

Also, bummer! Isn’t part of the reason mhra’s are gathering…to learn more about each other, confirm similarities, discuss philosophies and potential solutions, and forge bonds, etc—especially during socializing time? It will be excruciatingly hard to do this if attendees lips must be sealed.

Will attendees have to take their talk elsewhere if/when they need to be honest but in which outsiders obliviously cry ” hate” because they do not want the truth to be told?

How come outsiders will be allowed in socializing time? Will attendees be allowed any time to gather WITHOUT snooping idiots probing for things to be mean and clueless?

You know… saying hateful things about women is telling the truth!!!

brooked
brooked
6 years ago

@LBT

I’m reading your fucking link. Right now I’m reading about… a lot of blather about women’s spaces, finding feminists on facebook, dismantling the nuclear family, some assholes celebrating genocide in Papua New Guinea (which sounds like it was perpetrated by desperate people in warfare, not some feminist cabal)… dear god, Matheus, this is a LOT of freakin’ pages and a whole lot of blather.

I just want to say that I appreciate and very much enjoyed your attempt to engage this unholy amount of random screenshots that make no noticeable sense.

My favorite screenshot is labeled: “Then David realized he fucked up”. It just has two Paul Elam tweets that say “So how long have you been working with people who advocate the extermination of men?” and “Oh my! @DavidFutrelle now published on gendercide advocate blog! #hardlysurprisedatthispuke”. Wow, that’s quite a, uh, gotcha. I really see the many good reasons why people here need to see that and respond.

@Matheus
While I realize MRAs think everything is about them, this blog mocks misogyny throughout the manosphere. If I was feeling masochistic, I could limit myself to comments only posted in the last 24 hours and could find oodles of hateful shit on PUA, Incel and anti-feminist sites that would dwarf everything in your vaulted “Agent Orange” files. (FYI, that’s obnoxious fucking name if you know anything about actual Vietnam-era Agent Orange, but whatever.)

Yes, everyone interested in MRM is not the same. Heck, the worst misogyny on Reddit isn’t on r/mensrights, because TeRPville, r/adviceanimals and r/SRSsucks are worse. Congrats on that. That said, if you don’t see that the main MRM sites are fringe Alt-Right echo chambers where people mostly hate-rant about women and are fueled by anti-feminism rather than concerns about social issues facing men, this isn’t the website for you because that’s what is discussed on WHTM every day.

kittehserf
6 years ago

MaudeLL – so whinerdude is saying he and his little MRA buddies can’t have a social conversation without saying how much they hate women.

Class, they has it.

brooked
brooked
6 years ago

@MaudeLL

All the LOLs.
“Snooping idiots probing for things to be mean and clueless” = Non-MRAs criticizing misogyny in direct quotes

My favorite part is that he uses the human rights version, MHRAs. Lots of human rights groups have a membership that who would be labelled as a hate movement if their conference discussions were directly quoted, right?

Sir Bodsworth Rugglesby III
Sir Bodsworth Rugglesby III
6 years ago

Help for the MRM. If you aren’t going to be hating on women, what else will you have to talk about?

Some possible answers:

* the weather
* incomprehensible poster design
* the weather
* correct etiquette for eating cold stew from a can
* the weather
* hey do you think Warren Farrell is related to Colin Farrell or is it just a coincidence
* ties knots — the Windsor vs the Esmay
* ellipses and the rule of two
* why all women are bloodsucking monsters. I mean the weather! The weather! Shit.

katz
6 years ago

FYI, that’s obnoxious fucking name if you know anything about actual Vietnam-era Agent Orange, but whatever.

They’re called that because anyone who tried to actually read them all would shrivel up and die.

MaudeLL
6 years ago

@kitteh
The gynocracy is oppressing their speech through Paul Elam.

@Sir Bodsworth
I suggest they talk about actually going their own way.
And they can hide their misogyny by discussing their love of scented fucking candles (shrewd strategy).

A Wolverine
A Wolverine
6 years ago

Ok so if im following the MRA logic clown car right.
feminists at a dead website said shitty things->David doesnt denounce them Therefore David is pro genocide

In what alternate dimension does that make even the smallest amount of sense?

by that same train of thought (and i use the term very very loosely)
Elliot Rodger wanted to starve all women to death-> Mra DEFENDs Rodger Therefore
Mra want all women to starve to death

marinerachel
marinerachel
6 years ago

Its not even difficult to find awful things said by feminists. Feminism’s been around for a while and feminists are people with vastly differing views. No shit a lot of horrible things have been said by people who are feminists sinse the idea’s inception.

Here’s the thing: the people saying those things are fringe-dwellers, upholding ideas abhorred by the overwhelming majority of feminists worldwide.

By contrast, AVfM is THE voice of the MRM. The putrid shit they espouse is mainstream MRA thought. They’re not dwelling on the fringes of the, ahem, movement nor are the people telling us such profound insights as domestic violence against women is beneficial to relationships and society (and I’m pretty sure every AVfM contributor has said that or something close to it) unique within their group. That’s fucking normal for them.

There’s just no valid comparison. Yeah, some feminists have said some gross things throughout history. That’s not the same as belonging to a movement that is populated by gross people who share gross beliefs. That’s what AVfM and the MRM are. Awful feminists saying disgusting things that make the world shake their heads are just a fucking embarrassment. They have no power in the real world nor within feminism. Their thoughts do not in any way reflect any trend anyone need be concerned by. They’re laughed out of the room. We aren’t paying or even inviting them to speak at our conferences. We don’t need to rely on the authority of people who agree with us on something while simultaneously denigrating groups to argue our corner because we actually have sincerely decent people in our corner and THAT’S because human rights actually matter to us.

Can’t say the same about AVfM and the MRM. All they’re concerned about is portraying men as victims of women and feminism and if that means throwing gay people under the bus, they’re all for it.

Human fucking rights.

marinerachel
marinerachel
6 years ago

By the way, Matheus, you realise the crowd at AVfM doesn’t care about you, right? Like, they’re not going to be there for you when you’re in need or anything. They’re not going to listen to you for hours and hold you we you cry and send you a care package to ensure you have a little less to worry about while you’re going through any kind if ugliness in your life. They aren’t trying to make your life or the life of any man or boy better. They really don’t care but you.

I’ll bet you dollars to doughnuts this crowd and almost any crowd within a feminist circle will jump at the opportunity to make your life or the life of any man or boy going through shit a little easier if they hear you’re in trouble and need a hand.

If you need something, you can just say so. There’s really no reason to be afraid of judgement or persecution here.

Ally S
6 years ago

@Matheus

You must have some brain damage.

Fuck off you disablist shithead.

marinerachel
marinerachel
6 years ago

Pardon me, “They really don’t care about* you.” Sorry.

Seriously though, the prominent names within the MRM are in it for themselves, not you and not men and/or boys. They do what they do for satisfaction, not out of a need to see social injustices righted.

I’ve taken a volunteering position for the next six weeks working with boys sixteen to eighteen whose high school math and science marks are the shits but they want to further their education in the subjects at university. There’s lots of programs catering to kids in general but because the issue of under achieving in high school has become more prevalent amongst boys and they generally aren’t as successful as girls re: the social learning experience, this program caters to them exclusively. It’s basically about making reasonable demands and holding boys to the same standard of behaviour girls are held to resulting in that social learning experience girls benefit from. My experience suggests it has nothing to do with intelligence or ability. When you’re not held to reasonable standards of behaviour though there’s nothing for you to be ambitious about. We really fail boys when we behave as though it’s unnatural and outside their control to be learners the way girls are expected to.

Ally S
6 years ago

I don’t agree with Paul Elam on that instance. He was trying to point out the fact that the system was too corrupt, but I think his comment was of bad taste.

First of all, he’s wrong, and second of all, HE FUCKING APPROVES OF PEOPLE REDUCING THE CHANCES OF RAPE VICTIMS RECEIVING JUSTICE IN COURT. That’s not merely “bad taste.” That’s fucking misogyny and rape culture.

However, there have been many proven cases of false allegations. The majority of allegations are simply unproven either way, but you seem to assume that every allegation that is not proven to be false must be true, which really makes no sense.

Many? By what standard? Of course there have been many false accusations, but they are vanishingly rare, especially compared to the number of actual rapes.

brooked
brooked
6 years ago

Here’s a somewhat recent Mother Jones article about how militant “Open Carry” terrorists activists doxx and intimidate women who publicly support sensible gun control. I’m posting this because it’s all sadly familiar, plus non-US residents can see how disturbing American gun culture is. The same people who “protest” with assault rifles in fast food restaurants harass the victims of gun violence. Seriously, this is the first time I’ve ever said this: I want my country back.

Spitting, Stalking, Rape Threats: How Gun Extremists Target Women
Welcome to the dark side of America’s war over guns.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/05/guns-bullying-open-carry-women-moms-texas

mildlymagnificent
6 years ago

The one thing that stands out to me about this conference … do these people think that this is the way feminist/ women’s issues conferences work?

My recollections are from a long time ago but, by and large, I simply don’t remember talking about men, only about workplace/ politics/ economics/ medical/ childcare/ indigenous issues depending on the agenda. Of course, during breaks, we’d catch up with friends and acquaintances so we’d talk about our partners and families and update our contact information and the like. But we didn’t talk about how icky and horrible men were even when we were talking about divorce or domestic violence. We’d talk about the problems of funding or managing refuges or of dealing with cops and courts or talking to stubborn pollies who just didn’t “get it”.

We hardly talked about men at all. Occasionally we discussed strategies for getting men involved as allies generally or in specific issues where there were problems / solutions affecting men and women more or less equally. If there was any private “trash talk”, it would be about _individual men_ who were employers/ union members/ political party members who’d been impenetrably stubborn or outrageously offensive or had some other characteristic which Singled. Them. Out. rather than being part of the general ickiness of all men.

woodyred
woodyred
6 years ago

Well Im an MRA – and I support gay marriage. so there.

WhatIsThisGravitasOfWhichYouSpeak
WhatIsThisGravitasOfWhichYouSpeak
6 years ago

@ woodyred, and how do you feel about a homophobe speaking at your conference, then?

woodyred
woodyred
6 years ago

@ WhatIsThisGravitasOfWhichYouSpeak – I dont know what her objections are. could be religious reasons – you know what religious people are like. its an unfortunate fact that you cant always agree with everyone on every single topic.. its my understanding she is speaking about fathers rights – not gay marriage.

WhatIsThisGravitasOfWhichYouSpeak
WhatIsThisGravitasOfWhichYouSpeak
6 years ago

@woodyred, why do her specific reasons for objecting matter? I asked how you felt about AVfM allowing a noted and active homophobe to speak without issuing a denial of support for those views. Or does AVfM only care about straight men?

woodyred
woodyred
6 years ago

@WhatIsThisGravitasOfWhichYouSpeak – I dont know her specific objections to gay marriage – I personally cannot understand peoples objections to gay marriage. but perhaps she would favor civil partnership or some other kind of union – and simply objects to the idea of a same sex religious-type marriage. reading this article is the first I have heard of her opinions on this matter. From what I gather she is speaking with regards to her previous experience with battered womens shelters and fathers rights. not gay marriage.