Hey all, here’s my anecdote about the MRA’s I knew a few years ago. For context I don’t know what sites these guys were going to but they definitely identified as MRAs. This was before Red Pill was around but a lot of the things they talked about used that kind of language and ideas. The group was made up of 5 guys: 2 single in their early 20’s, my boyfriend who was in his late teens-early 20’s, a mid 30’s guy in an LTR with 2 kids (the most extreme) and an early 40’s married guy (would be considered a ‘moderate’ MRA). I’ve been thinking about this since the #NotAllMen shit went down, the cognitive dissonance still gives me a headache.
So MRA’s like to go on about how not all men are rapists, most men are responsible reasonable people with self control so why are women so cautious about them, etc etc etc I’m sure you all know the story. If this seems to be slightly at odds with their fixation on feminazis trying to police ‘healthy male sexuality’ (i.e., claims that they can’t help but catcall and stare at women, it’s natural for men to be overtly sexual, etc.), that’s because it is. And seeing a group of guys who believe these things simultaneously try to manage their relationships with women is an epic clusterfuck. Because ‘healthy male sexuality’ means that men think with their dicks and are more sexually impulsive, among this group it was seen as wise to ban their partners from speaking to other men for their own safety. I don’t know how many times I heard these guys parrot “it’s not you we’re concerned about, it’s the guys we don’t trust because that’s what male sexuality is like,” when accused of being jealous and controlling. The other partners and I were repeatedly reminded that all men want to have sex with us so we should never have male friends because they only want to get in our pants. Never EVER go out for a girls night out because men + alcohol = knowing concerned looks exchanged between the guys and veiled references to rape.
I used to get really confused when not long after being told that every man I’ve ever talked to has pictured himself having sex with me, these guys would start complaining about how they can’t even ask a woman for the time of day without her thinking they are hitting on her. Because GOD men don’t always want to get in a womans pants, why do women always think that?? And why men as a whole viewed as dangerous just because of the actions of a few bad seeds? There was a long running argument between one of the couples because the guy would refuse to pick the woman up from the trainstation after work, even though her train pulled in at about 10pm. She was concerned about her safety but he simply didn’t understand why she was getting hysterical considering men are fine, men are great, no man is ever going to attack you walking home late at night because of his honour and even considering that a guy would do that is sexist. But better not have male friends because men can’t be trusted. Oh, but don’t point that contradiction out to them, because then they’ll just exchange knowing glances between them, say you don’t understand men at all, and then laugh amongst themselves about how naiive and dumb the womenfolk are.
Sorry for the essay, I’ll cut it off there.
Kat
10 years ago
@pallygirl “do you think she will ever hit her son, over something like this?”
According to him, she has been smacking him for accidents too. He told his granny this unasked at the weekend, and she says she tried to react neutrally in case he was lying for sympathy or whatever – but honestly, he’s never lied like that before, I don’t think he’s at that stage in his development yet. But as far as talking to her about that, it’s going to be completely lose-lose, because my bet is that she knows she shouldn’t do that, at least, so if she is doing it she’ll deny it, possibly with a side dose of accusing us of manipulating him, or him of manipulating us.
Her behaviour is getting downright alarming. If he shows any more signs of anxiety, especially around toileting, or he keeps mentioning the smacking…we’re going to have to seek full custody. But that will be a long and difficult process and we don’t know what we can do in the meantime.
@AngryMouse: so men are dogs and think with their man-parts so can’t be trusted, especially when alcohol is involved …. but men are also no threat to women and why are they all so paranoid anyway?
That just doesn’t stand up to even superficial scrutiny. How do these guys not understand that their worldview isn’t even internally consistent?
Her behaviour is getting downright alarming. If he shows any more signs of anxiety, especially around toileting, or he keeps mentioning the smacking…we’re going to have to seek full custody. But that will be a long and difficult process and we don’t know what we can do in the meantime.
I know battles for custody are a really miserable experience, but if she doesn’t change her behavior post haste, then it sounds like that’s what has to be done. I hope the kid gets through it all without being traumatized.
Adding hugs to the barrel for anyone who’s battling suck.
Some random job-seeker advice: I heard yesterday from a career advisor person I know that 75% of HR people go looking for people on Linked In before they even post open positions. So if you’re looking, she says you should get on Linked In.
Marie
10 years ago
@kittehs
glad to hear you had a nice picnic :3
@pallygirl
::offers hugs:: I hope going to work on monday goes well
thanks everyone who gave me advice last night. I’m going to try to reread it on a clear head, but I”m already feeling much better with your advice and that also my sister asked my dad how he took care of our dog when he was with her, so now we have more to work with . You’re all awesome. <3
pallygirl
10 years ago
I agree with katz, she should not be hitting the boy, especially for outcomes he can’t control, like toileting mistakes. If anything, it will make him have more mistakes because that’s one thing that stress does for little children.
If you have the money, I strongly recommend seeing a child psychologist about this. If you do go for custody, having a report from a professional like that will really help the custody decision go in your favour.
I’ve known a number of full-time solo parents, who are on state benefits, and not a single one of them have ever struck their children. There is no excuse for her behaviour.
pallygirl
10 years ago
@marie: thanks, I even managed some time lying on that side without having all the pain that used to be there. Yay for healing processes. 🙂
inadvertentfeminist
10 years ago
@strivingally: This is not at ALL impartial, but here’s a thing I wrote about it, recently. It’s kind of difficult to be impartial, really. Even the origins are icky.
@Ina: I’ve been commenting here for weeks and I *still* haven’t introduced myself. 😀 Hi, I’m StrivingAlly and I started getting vocal about the manosphere after Isla Vista. A lot of the women I know told me there weren’t enough men saying the kinds of things I was saying, so, I started myself a blog and a twitter account. 🙂
serrana
10 years ago
Kitteh, Louis plays Glory Days on the lute? That is AWESOME.
Mr. S and I are having a picnic tomorrow too. He wants to see the Texas City Dike, which was damaged by a hurricane a few years ago. They’ve repaired in and improved it, apparently. I have a square quiche baking in the oven right now (because I thought little squares would be easier to handle than slices), and some fruit and cookies. We’ll probably head on to Galveston afterward.
It’s going to be very hot but I could use the outdoor time. I sprained my foot three weeks ago and I’m such an idiot – for two weeks I did even more than usual: went to a street fest the next day, to a concert and stood up the whole time, etc. Then last Sunday I woke up and it was swollen and more painful than before. So, then I decided to ice it and stay off it. But now I’m bored and it’s mostly better, so I’m looking forward to doing stuff tomorrow.
I’ll catch up with the rest of the thread now. I can’t promise I’ll have any advice for anyone, but everyone has my virtual hugs!
pallygirl
10 years ago
@serrana if it is swollen and more painful at this point, are you sure it’s not broken?
Hi David and All,
Long time lurker, first time poster. Thought I should take the opportunity to say hi and that I totally dig what you’re doing here. Mocking the manosphere for the sad abyss of self-inflicted human misery it is, dilutes its power, and amuses me tremendously. Keep up the great work!
serrana
10 years ago
Pallygirl, it got better within hours when I got off it and iced it last Sunday. I’m just annoyed at myself for waiting two weeks to do so. It’s actually a whole lot better this weekend. Thanks, though! My SIL once broke her foot and didn’t realize a while, and she’s super conscientious about her health, so I can see how someone could miss it. Especially me, as I’m kind of oblivious.
pallygirl
10 years ago
@serrana: sweet, just checking. I hope your foot gets better soon.
Yes, yes it is. That’s what happens when gel testosterone is completely controlled by one company in this country. (I really hate needles, and I also prefer to have really even hormone levels, which the gel manages better.)
RE: Kat
According to him, she has been smacking him for accidents too.
Yeeeeaaaah, if he said that to you AND granny unprompted, I’d say believe him. I mean Jesus. Horrible as seeking sole custody is, it really doesn’t sound like this woman is doing anything but escalating her behavior.
Kat, what LBT said. Also, (apologies if someone has said this before), document. Document every little thing you might think is relevant later.
Marie
10 years ago
@inadvertentfeminist
Hi 😀 and welcome.
@serrana
ouch! I hope your foot heels as quickly as possible.
@kat
seconding both serrana and LBT, though I don’t have anything to add :/
Karalora
10 years ago
I know I don’t post much here, but I could use a bit of a boost if people here don’t mind…
One of my long-term Internet friends “broke up” with me via email this morning. She took an overseas job for the summer and I was skeptical of our ability to arrange Skype chats due to the time difference, and she misinterpreted that as me not caring enough to maintain the friendship. Stir in a few hurt emails back and forth, and then she just dropped me. I’ve been pretty miserable about it all day. I feel like she didn’t give me remotely enough chance to explain myself and sort things out. Apparently she’s been dissatisfied with the friendship for a long time…which she also never brought up. I don’t have many friends, online or in meatspace, and I just feel like any one of them could be holding a secret grudge they don’t plan to tell me about until it’s too late.
I tend to be socially awkward. I never know where to find the sweet spot between smothering people and pushing them away. I was trying to avoid the former here–letting her alone to do her cool career thing instead of trying to eat up her time with chats–and I wound up doing the latter. I’m half tempted to just withdraw from everyone I know so I can’t make any more mistakes.
Marie
10 years ago
@karalora
Free internet hugs from me, i fyou want them. That really sucks :/ I don’t really have any good advice, thoug 🙁
I know what it’s like to not be sure whether you’re being smothering or being too distant. I know I tend to do the distant thing, because actually talking to people is sometimes intimidating for me.
If I have a script, like for EMS stuff or tutoring or job stuff, I do fine. But casual conversation? Terrifying.
I wish I had good advice. Instead, all I’ve got is a heartfelt “Keep trying to interact with people, because when it works out, it’s fun.”
Sorry I’m not more helpful…
Internet hugs, if you want them.
wewereemergencies
10 years ago
@karalora nooo don’t do that! I know what you mean, I do that all the time – even on this site (you have no idea how nervous I am about typing this comment- I’m not good enough to give advice!). But generally I just try to take what people say at face value – it isn’t your fault she was unwilling to discuss any problems she had. Maybe try saying something along the lines of your comment if your concerned? Just like “hey I’m not the best at reading social cues, so I try to avoid smothering people, but I really appreciate your friendship, so please tell me if I’m being too clingy/you feel like I’m pushing you away/any problem at all because I do really like you.” IDK that’s what I generally do at least – make it clear that I am awkward, but really like them and will never have a problem with them having issues and then take them at face value.
Just got set up with my Career staff shift and mentor for my EMT Precept!
So, until I get a job, I get to spend 12-24 hours actually training at the main career fire station with the EMT-III’s and Paramedics, with my gear on the ambulance, every third day! Then, once I have a job, I’ll probably have to cut back to 4-8 hour shifts. 🙁
But, being paid and not living on savings will be nice! Currently, spending lots of time at the local job center, letting them coach me on cover letters and resumes… because I wasn’t doing so great on my own. Kind of the problem of not knowing exactly what my degrees qualify me for…
Super stoked about the opportunity to do more hands on work and watch the pros, in the interim!
We Hunted The Mammoth
Hey all, here’s my anecdote about the MRA’s I knew a few years ago. For context I don’t know what sites these guys were going to but they definitely identified as MRAs. This was before Red Pill was around but a lot of the things they talked about used that kind of language and ideas. The group was made up of 5 guys: 2 single in their early 20’s, my boyfriend who was in his late teens-early 20’s, a mid 30’s guy in an LTR with 2 kids (the most extreme) and an early 40’s married guy (would be considered a ‘moderate’ MRA). I’ve been thinking about this since the #NotAllMen shit went down, the cognitive dissonance still gives me a headache.
So MRA’s like to go on about how not all men are rapists, most men are responsible reasonable people with self control so why are women so cautious about them, etc etc etc I’m sure you all know the story. If this seems to be slightly at odds with their fixation on feminazis trying to police ‘healthy male sexuality’ (i.e., claims that they can’t help but catcall and stare at women, it’s natural for men to be overtly sexual, etc.), that’s because it is. And seeing a group of guys who believe these things simultaneously try to manage their relationships with women is an epic clusterfuck. Because ‘healthy male sexuality’ means that men think with their dicks and are more sexually impulsive, among this group it was seen as wise to ban their partners from speaking to other men for their own safety. I don’t know how many times I heard these guys parrot “it’s not you we’re concerned about, it’s the guys we don’t trust because that’s what male sexuality is like,” when accused of being jealous and controlling. The other partners and I were repeatedly reminded that all men want to have sex with us so we should never have male friends because they only want to get in our pants. Never EVER go out for a girls night out because men + alcohol = knowing concerned looks exchanged between the guys and veiled references to rape.
I used to get really confused when not long after being told that every man I’ve ever talked to has pictured himself having sex with me, these guys would start complaining about how they can’t even ask a woman for the time of day without her thinking they are hitting on her. Because GOD men don’t always want to get in a womans pants, why do women always think that?? And why men as a whole viewed as dangerous just because of the actions of a few bad seeds? There was a long running argument between one of the couples because the guy would refuse to pick the woman up from the trainstation after work, even though her train pulled in at about 10pm. She was concerned about her safety but he simply didn’t understand why she was getting hysterical considering men are fine, men are great, no man is ever going to attack you walking home late at night because of his honour and even considering that a guy would do that is sexist. But better not have male friends because men can’t be trusted. Oh, but don’t point that contradiction out to them, because then they’ll just exchange knowing glances between them, say you don’t understand men at all, and then laugh amongst themselves about how naiive and dumb the womenfolk are.
Sorry for the essay, I’ll cut it off there.
@pallygirl “do you think she will ever hit her son, over something like this?”
According to him, she has been smacking him for accidents too. He told his granny this unasked at the weekend, and she says she tried to react neutrally in case he was lying for sympathy or whatever – but honestly, he’s never lied like that before, I don’t think he’s at that stage in his development yet. But as far as talking to her about that, it’s going to be completely lose-lose, because my bet is that she knows she shouldn’t do that, at least, so if she is doing it she’ll deny it, possibly with a side dose of accusing us of manipulating him, or him of manipulating us.
Her behaviour is getting downright alarming. If he shows any more signs of anxiety, especially around toileting, or he keeps mentioning the smacking…we’re going to have to seek full custody. But that will be a long and difficult process and we don’t know what we can do in the meantime.
@AngryMouse: so men are dogs and think with their man-parts so can’t be trusted, especially when alcohol is involved …. but men are also no threat to women and why are they all so paranoid anyway?
That just doesn’t stand up to even superficial scrutiny. How do these guys not understand that their worldview isn’t even internally consistent?
I know battles for custody are a really miserable experience, but if she doesn’t change her behavior post haste, then it sounds like that’s what has to be done. I hope the kid gets through it all without being traumatized.
Adding hugs to the barrel for anyone who’s battling suck.
Some random job-seeker advice: I heard yesterday from a career advisor person I know that 75% of HR people go looking for people on Linked In before they even post open positions. So if you’re looking, she says you should get on Linked In.
@kittehs
glad to hear you had a nice picnic :3
@pallygirl
::offers hugs:: I hope going to work on monday goes well
thanks everyone who gave me advice last night. I’m going to try to reread it on a clear head, but I”m already feeling much better with your advice and that also my sister asked my dad how he took care of our dog when he was with her, so now we have more to work with . You’re all awesome. <3
I agree with katz, she should not be hitting the boy, especially for outcomes he can’t control, like toileting mistakes. If anything, it will make him have more mistakes because that’s one thing that stress does for little children.
If you have the money, I strongly recommend seeing a child psychologist about this. If you do go for custody, having a report from a professional like that will really help the custody decision go in your favour.
I’ve known a number of full-time solo parents, who are on state benefits, and not a single one of them have ever struck their children. There is no excuse for her behaviour.
@marie: thanks, I even managed some time lying on that side without having all the pain that used to be there. Yay for healing processes. 🙂
@strivingally: This is not at ALL impartial, but here’s a thing I wrote about it, recently. It’s kind of difficult to be impartial, really. Even the origins are icky.
https://inadvertentfeminist.wordpress.com/2014/06/05/maybe-notallmen-but-yesallmras/
Crap. I’m sorry. I saw this in my reader-thingy, and didn’t even introduce myself. Hi! I’m Ina, and I’m a n00b.
@Ina: I’ve been commenting here for weeks and I *still* haven’t introduced myself. 😀 Hi, I’m StrivingAlly and I started getting vocal about the manosphere after Isla Vista. A lot of the women I know told me there weren’t enough men saying the kinds of things I was saying, so, I started myself a blog and a twitter account. 🙂
Kitteh, Louis plays Glory Days on the lute? That is AWESOME.
Mr. S and I are having a picnic tomorrow too. He wants to see the Texas City Dike, which was damaged by a hurricane a few years ago. They’ve repaired in and improved it, apparently. I have a square quiche baking in the oven right now (because I thought little squares would be easier to handle than slices), and some fruit and cookies. We’ll probably head on to Galveston afterward.
It’s going to be very hot but I could use the outdoor time. I sprained my foot three weeks ago and I’m such an idiot – for two weeks I did even more than usual: went to a street fest the next day, to a concert and stood up the whole time, etc. Then last Sunday I woke up and it was swollen and more painful than before. So, then I decided to ice it and stay off it. But now I’m bored and it’s mostly better, so I’m looking forward to doing stuff tomorrow.
I’ll catch up with the rest of the thread now. I can’t promise I’ll have any advice for anyone, but everyone has my virtual hugs!
@serrana if it is swollen and more painful at this point, are you sure it’s not broken?
Hi David and All,
Long time lurker, first time poster. Thought I should take the opportunity to say hi and that I totally dig what you’re doing here. Mocking the manosphere for the sad abyss of self-inflicted human misery it is, dilutes its power, and amuses me tremendously. Keep up the great work!
Pallygirl, it got better within hours when I got off it and iced it last Sunday. I’m just annoyed at myself for waiting two weeks to do so. It’s actually a whole lot better this weekend. Thanks, though! My SIL once broke her foot and didn’t realize a while, and she’s super conscientious about her health, so I can see how someone could miss it. Especially me, as I’m kind of oblivious.
@serrana: sweet, just checking. I hope your foot gets better soon.
RE: Marie
Wow, that’s just a ridiculous amoutn of money O_o
Yes, yes it is. That’s what happens when gel testosterone is completely controlled by one company in this country. (I really hate needles, and I also prefer to have really even hormone levels, which the gel manages better.)
RE: Kat
According to him, she has been smacking him for accidents too.
Yeeeeaaaah, if he said that to you AND granny unprompted, I’d say believe him. I mean Jesus. Horrible as seeking sole custody is, it really doesn’t sound like this woman is doing anything but escalating her behavior.
Hi, Ina and StrivingAlly!
Have a Welcome Package!
Good to see new nyms, without the smell of troll socks. 🙂
Kat, what LBT said. Also, (apologies if someone has said this before), document. Document every little thing you might think is relevant later.
@inadvertentfeminist
Hi 😀 and welcome.
@serrana
ouch! I hope your foot heels as quickly as possible.
@kat
seconding both serrana and LBT, though I don’t have anything to add :/
I know I don’t post much here, but I could use a bit of a boost if people here don’t mind…
One of my long-term Internet friends “broke up” with me via email this morning. She took an overseas job for the summer and I was skeptical of our ability to arrange Skype chats due to the time difference, and she misinterpreted that as me not caring enough to maintain the friendship. Stir in a few hurt emails back and forth, and then she just dropped me. I’ve been pretty miserable about it all day. I feel like she didn’t give me remotely enough chance to explain myself and sort things out. Apparently she’s been dissatisfied with the friendship for a long time…which she also never brought up. I don’t have many friends, online or in meatspace, and I just feel like any one of them could be holding a secret grudge they don’t plan to tell me about until it’s too late.
I tend to be socially awkward. I never know where to find the sweet spot between smothering people and pushing them away. I was trying to avoid the former here–letting her alone to do her cool career thing instead of trying to eat up her time with chats–and I wound up doing the latter. I’m half tempted to just withdraw from everyone I know so I can’t make any more mistakes.
@karalora
Free internet hugs from me, i fyou want them. That really sucks :/ I don’t really have any good advice, thoug 🙁
Oh, Karalora, that’s awful!
I know what it’s like to not be sure whether you’re being smothering or being too distant. I know I tend to do the distant thing, because actually talking to people is sometimes intimidating for me.
If I have a script, like for EMS stuff or tutoring or job stuff, I do fine. But casual conversation? Terrifying.
I wish I had good advice. Instead, all I’ve got is a heartfelt “Keep trying to interact with people, because when it works out, it’s fun.”
Sorry I’m not more helpful…
Internet hugs, if you want them.
@karalora nooo don’t do that! I know what you mean, I do that all the time – even on this site (you have no idea how nervous I am about typing this comment- I’m not good enough to give advice!). But generally I just try to take what people say at face value – it isn’t your fault she was unwilling to discuss any problems she had. Maybe try saying something along the lines of your comment if your concerned? Just like “hey I’m not the best at reading social cues, so I try to avoid smothering people, but I really appreciate your friendship, so please tell me if I’m being too clingy/you feel like I’m pushing you away/any problem at all because I do really like you.” IDK that’s what I generally do at least – make it clear that I am awkward, but really like them and will never have a problem with them having issues and then take them at face value.
Oh, speaking of EMS, random good news!
Just got set up with my Career staff shift and mentor for my EMT Precept!
So, until I get a job, I get to spend 12-24 hours actually training at the main career fire station with the EMT-III’s and Paramedics, with my gear on the ambulance, every third day! Then, once I have a job, I’ll probably have to cut back to 4-8 hour shifts. 🙁
But, being paid and not living on savings will be nice! Currently, spending lots of time at the local job center, letting them coach me on cover letters and resumes… because I wasn’t doing so great on my own. Kind of the problem of not knowing exactly what my degrees qualify me for…
Super stoked about the opportunity to do more hands on work and watch the pros, in the interim!