I’m going back to my friend’s place this morning. I feel really bad because my brother wanted to spend more time with me, but I’ll see him again very soon so it’s okay.
Arctic Ape
10 years ago
Karalora:
Man, would I love to experience Midsummer up in the Nordic countries. It would be worth the loss of sleep (from excessive daylight) to share in some of those traditions.
In my opinion, there’s no such thing as too much daylight 🙂
I hope everyone’s doing all right, especially Ally. If anyone’s still in here, I’m still worried that my boyfriend is vulnerable to MRA stuff. Any tips?
Hi Ally, I don’t offer hugs unless requested because of my own issues with being touched but may I offer kind thoughts?
I know I am a newcomer but you have been on my mind a lot the past few days and I am glad you are doing better today.
@J.J
Same basic question as Ally, do you feel comfortable letting us know why you think he’s susceptible to MRA ideas?
Sorry if I missed an earlier post where you explained this but I cannot locate it.
This is an amazing group of people who can help provide specific counter arguments and links to data that might be helpful. Or just listen if you need a sounding board.
He seems sort of…bitter against feminist communities, that they told him he was always doing something wrong even when he followed the advice of men, and that men’s rights groups can tell you that others are doing something wrong. He’s not misogynistic, but he finds creepy offensive. He seems vulnerable to the ‘what if he’s just socially awkward’ thing, because he kinda is, and says women use creepy to socially isolate and shame men in their social groups and that I am unfair to people who disagree with me, which (duh) tend to be MRAs. He treats me really well, so I’m really confused.
This might be one for Captain Awkward if her ask is open.
But in any case, what is your goal? Do you want to counter his misinformation (cause we can tear it to shreds)? Do you want to continue the relationship regardless? What would the ‘better’ situation look like?
It sounds like he has a bad case of the Nice Guy but it’s hard to tell. Is there a specific recent incident that made you come here and ask for advice?
…maybe I will ask Captain Awkward. It could help. Thanks for that. *goes to work on letter*
It’s a lot of little things? I mean, he doesn’t spout stupid statistics and listens to me, but something isn’t sitting right. I mean, otherwise we’re great, so I’m actually hoping this is me being paranoid because I have really terrible taste in men so far and now am pretty wary. Better would be ‘doesn’t think that feminists care more about being right/hating men than listening to dissenting options?’
Eh, things haven’t really been getting better for me overall. I knowingly engaged in self-harm today in the form of intentional self-neglect. (I drank a huge amount of coffee with due to worsening reactions to trauma.due to worsening reactions to trauma.the intent of increasing my risk of an anxiety episode, since caffeine worsens my anxiety.) Fortunately I didn’t have an anxiety attack and I’m feeling totally calm now. I’m just worried about this pattern continuing.
Thank you for the kind thoughts. I have issues with being touched these days as well, and my PTSD seems to be playing some role in that. So just kind thoughts are cool with me regardless.
they told him he was always doing something wrong even when he followed the advice of men
That sounds like he might be defensive about being called out for his privilege.
…and that men’s rights groups can tell you that others are doing something wrong.
That sounds like he really doesn’t know much at all about men’s rights groups. Maybe this would be a time to show him this website? Just a suggestion.
He’s not misogynistic, but he finds creepy offensive.
Yep, that definitely sounds like he is unaware of his male privilege.
He seems vulnerable to the ‘what if he’s just socially awkward’ thing, because he kinda is, and says women use creepy to socially isolate and shame men in their social groups
You can say that 1) you are not a woman, so naturally you don’t know the reasons women call men creepy 2) creepiness is a real thing that can’t be ignored even if it makes him uncomfortable and 3) there are plenty of socially awkward men who, despite being socially awkward, are entirely capable of not creeping on women.
and that I am unfair to people who disagree with me, which (duh) tend to be MRAs.
Assuming that the “unfairness” he perceives is really just you getting pissed off at MRAs, you can attempt to clarify by saying that you are pissed off at them because their misogynistic views have real impacts on your life. You aren’t upset at them because of dissent; you’re upset because of their hatred.
I hope that helps. I’m in a drugged-out state so I might not be making any sense.
Lots of anxious, self-loathing, fearful, graphic trauma venting ahead:
TW: domestic abuse, graphic description of sexual assault
I still love my dad. I feel like I’m the worse person for being upset at him. I wish I could have a close, healthy relationship with him. I don’t want to hurt his feelings by being so distant from him.
But at the same time, I’m so frightened by him. When I think about him, I think about the angry glare, the aggressive body language, the loud and overbearing yelling, the memories of him telling me I’m evil and sinful and undeserving of love or respect, the memories of him asking me to threaten my own family members with lethal violence, the memories of him deliberately breaking objects in my presence in order to make me afraid of him – all of these things constantly invade my mind, and they make me feel helpless.
He has broken down my boundaries significantly and without any warning. There were times he used to forcibly restrain my body and then give me extremely painful bites all over my arms and legs out of “tough love”. And one time he deliberately exposed my naked chest in full view in order to degrade and violate me. As a result of all of those things, I keep getting these anxious thoughts about him doing even worse things to me. Like yelling at me, threatening me with violence if I don’t listen to him, and then stripping me of my clothes in order to do things to me. I am honestly afraid of him sexually assaulting me, perhaps in an attempt to “correct” me. I don’t really have any basis for this fear and I’m probably just anxious as fuck, but the fear is still there. And it still makes me feel weak, inconsolable, vulnerable, and violable.
I feel really scared and alone. I have no idea what I’m going to do. It’s like his foot is on my neck constantly and I’m powerless to stop him. I’ll always be hurt by him, and because of him I don’t think I will ever stop seeing myself as pathetic and worthless. He won, I lost.
And what’s also awful is that I am no longer comfortable with people touching me in general. I met a good friend of mine recently, and they offered to hug me. I refused because I felt too triggered by the thought of being touched. I still feel guilty about not accepting that hug, even though I know they care about respecting people’s boundaries. It hurts to have this kind of reaction to trauma because it makes hugging people offline very difficult, particularly when a hug would be the most soothing for me. I feel so disconnected with people, and I can’t help but feel that I have no one but myself to blame.
Ally,
It’s not your fault you can’t have a healthy and close relationship with your dad. It’s his fault for being abusive. You have nothing to feel bad about.
Materially he no longer has control over me. I’m free to live without being dependent on him – financially and socially. But he has emotional control over me through my memories of him. No matter how much my life deviates from his, no matter how safe I am from being under his strictest control, no matter how much he doesn’t want to do anything with me, he will always have control over my emotions and my sense of safety and happiness. It is always up to him whether I am capable of being gentle to myself. That’s why he has won. Maybe he hasn’t won but I don’t want to say that because it will just make me sound self-congratulatory. Either way I think my beliefs have some basis in reality.
It’s not your fault you can’t have a healthy and close relationship with your dad. It’s his fault for being abusive. You have nothing to feel bad about.
He has blamed me so much for his own abusiveness. He once told me “Get that rebellious look off your face” one time when I responded to his angry yelling with a calm contact. Usually I just stare at the floor in fear and desperately search for an opportunity to run to my room and lock the door. I displayed a subtle form of fearlessness and his response was physically, emotionally, and sexually abusing me in a span of 10 minutes that felt more like 10 hours. I didn’t resist him at all because I felt too scared. But I wonder if I was just weak. Maybe I could have stopped him. I could have told him no. But I was so fucking weak that I couldn’t do anything more than stand there and cry as he did those things to me. I’m so angry for not doing anything. I feel like it was an unforgivable mistake. I should never slip up and be a victim. It’s my fault for feeling weak, violable, and vulnerable.
I’m so confused. I know you’re right that it wasn’t my fault, but no matter what I keep getting these invasive thoughts about how I’m fucking worthless and deserved all of the abuse that was done to me because I’m nothing more than a creature to be degraded and humiliated. I want a normal life. I want to feel safe again. I don’t want to hate myself. But so far it all seems like it’s exactly what I deserve.
wewereemergencies
10 years ago
You don’t. You don’t, you don’t, you don’t. None of this is what you deserve. I know you feel like it is, but that’s the abuse talking. Please, please believe us Ally. You are worth so much more than that man could ever comprehend and all of this is his fault. Not yours. It has never been your fault. Trust us on that, please?
Ally, I can’t recall who said it in one of the open threads, but this jerkbrain stuff is what you need to get Rational Brain jumping on every time it pipes up. Treat it as a troll, shut it down with facts. Argue it into the ground. I know it’s hard, but it can be done.
bluecatbabe
10 years ago
Ally, I’m late reading this but I wanted to say:
This is not, not, not your fault. This is not NOT what you deserve. You deserve all the best.
This is NOT what you are condemned to for the rest of your life, either. It is unfortunately the hand you’ve been dealt – and that is not your fault either, it’s the fault of an abusive father who does not deserve you, and who could at any time have decided to treat you better – treat you as the person worthy of love and respect and care that you truly are.
It sucks utterly, and is a great and terrible sadness that he is apparently not adequate to the task of Being a Decent Father 101, but the responsibility for that lies with him, not with you.
But look at this, in spite of being landed with all this crap, you ARE dealing with it. You have taken steps to reduce your dependency on him: good for you! You are working to get to a place where you can limit your contact with him. You are reaching out in honesty and courage to folks who care about you and can support you. These are not small achievements already! You have my admiration and my best wishes.
I do understand what you mean about feeling assailed by memories of abuse. It has helped me to understand these as external to my self – trolls under the bridge, if you like, seconding Kittehserf, that will pop up and try and derail our minds from time to time. As with internet trolls, reason and mockery and sharing can help.
Abuse from a parent, a person who chose to have us but whom we did not get to choose, and which begins when we are small and vulnerable and they are the adult – how can that not be something external to our selves?
this jerkbrain stuff is what you need to get Rational Brain jumping on every time it pipes up.
Good plan. Though having sat through someone going through CBT to deal with shitty family stuff, I know it’s easier said than done.
For a baby steps approach when you don’t have a therapist to guide you through, try avoiding or replacing words like ‘always’ and ‘never’ with more time limited expressions. Funnily enough, it’s better to use longwinded expressions that we’d normally try to avoid in clear writing – they’re vaguer and less threatening than the doom laden ‘never’ and ‘always’.
I do have at least one means of coping, but it is detrimental to my psyche. I tell myself that it’s okay if I face more and more abuse from people, and it’s okay if I suffer from accumulating trauma, because in the end it will mean that I am more capable of helping people like me. My self-esteem is so low that I am only able to view myself positively if I view myself as valuable only in relation to how people benefit from the things I do. On the one hand, it’s consoling and comforting, but on the other hand it subtly teaches me to view myself as worthless and pathetic.
Yeah, I’ve a couple of years of CBT under my belt, I know it isn’t easy to change the destructive patterns of thinking. But it’s a great tool for doing so.
Baby steps are the thing too. Dealing with this feeling, now, arguing troll brain on this point – it’s going to have to be done many times, but there’s a sense in which fake it till you make it applies, as the message gradually sinks in and the harmful patterns and emotions loosen their grip.
We Hunted The Mammoth
Ice cream sounds like it was just the thing.
I’m going back to my friend’s place this morning. I feel really bad because my brother wanted to spend more time with me, but I’ll see him again very soon so it’s okay.
Karalora:
In my opinion, there’s no such thing as too much daylight 🙂
I hope everyone’s doing all right, especially Ally. If anyone’s still in here, I’m still worried that my boyfriend is vulnerable to MRA stuff. Any tips?
Why do you think your BF might become an MRA? Any specific motivations?
Hi Ally, I don’t offer hugs unless requested because of my own issues with being touched but may I offer kind thoughts?
I know I am a newcomer but you have been on my mind a lot the past few days and I am glad you are doing better today.
@J.J
Same basic question as Ally, do you feel comfortable letting us know why you think he’s susceptible to MRA ideas?
Sorry if I missed an earlier post where you explained this but I cannot locate it.
This is an amazing group of people who can help provide specific counter arguments and links to data that might be helpful. Or just listen if you need a sounding board.
He seems sort of…bitter against feminist communities, that they told him he was always doing something wrong even when he followed the advice of men, and that men’s rights groups can tell you that others are doing something wrong. He’s not misogynistic, but he finds creepy offensive. He seems vulnerable to the ‘what if he’s just socially awkward’ thing, because he kinda is, and says women use creepy to socially isolate and shame men in their social groups and that I am unfair to people who disagree with me, which (duh) tend to be MRAs. He treats me really well, so I’m really confused.
This might be one for Captain Awkward if her ask is open.
But in any case, what is your goal? Do you want to counter his misinformation (cause we can tear it to shreds)? Do you want to continue the relationship regardless? What would the ‘better’ situation look like?
It sounds like he has a bad case of the Nice Guy but it’s hard to tell. Is there a specific recent incident that made you come here and ask for advice?
…maybe I will ask Captain Awkward. It could help. Thanks for that. *goes to work on letter*
It’s a lot of little things? I mean, he doesn’t spout stupid statistics and listens to me, but something isn’t sitting right. I mean, otherwise we’re great, so I’m actually hoping this is me being paranoid because I have really terrible taste in men so far and now am pretty wary. Better would be ‘doesn’t think that feminists care more about being right/hating men than listening to dissenting options?’
@piratejennie
[CN: self-harm]
Eh, things haven’t really been getting better for me overall. I knowingly engaged in self-harm today in the form of intentional self-neglect. (I drank a huge amount of coffee with due to worsening reactions to trauma.due to worsening reactions to trauma.the intent of increasing my risk of an anxiety episode, since caffeine worsens my anxiety.) Fortunately I didn’t have an anxiety attack and I’m feeling totally calm now. I’m just worried about this pattern continuing.
Thank you for the kind thoughts. I have issues with being touched these days as well, and my PTSD seems to be playing some role in that. So just kind thoughts are cool with me regardless.
Okay, never mind, questions aren’t open.
*offers kind thoughts to Ally along with a cupcake* I also have Thin Mints and strawberry ice pops. Please keep yourself safe!
That sounds like he might be defensive about being called out for his privilege.
That sounds like he really doesn’t know much at all about men’s rights groups. Maybe this would be a time to show him this website? Just a suggestion.
Yep, that definitely sounds like he is unaware of his male privilege.
You can say that 1) you are not a woman, so naturally you don’t know the reasons women call men creepy 2) creepiness is a real thing that can’t be ignored even if it makes him uncomfortable and 3) there are plenty of socially awkward men who, despite being socially awkward, are entirely capable of not creeping on women.
Assuming that the “unfairness” he perceives is really just you getting pissed off at MRAs, you can attempt to clarify by saying that you are pissed off at them because their misogynistic views have real impacts on your life. You aren’t upset at them because of dissent; you’re upset because of their hatred.
I hope that helps. I’m in a drugged-out state so I might not be making any sense.
Lots of anxious, self-loathing, fearful, graphic trauma venting ahead:
TW: domestic abuse, graphic description of sexual assault
I still love my dad. I feel like I’m the worse person for being upset at him. I wish I could have a close, healthy relationship with him. I don’t want to hurt his feelings by being so distant from him.
But at the same time, I’m so frightened by him. When I think about him, I think about the angry glare, the aggressive body language, the loud and overbearing yelling, the memories of him telling me I’m evil and sinful and undeserving of love or respect, the memories of him asking me to threaten my own family members with lethal violence, the memories of him deliberately breaking objects in my presence in order to make me afraid of him – all of these things constantly invade my mind, and they make me feel helpless.
He has broken down my boundaries significantly and without any warning. There were times he used to forcibly restrain my body and then give me extremely painful bites all over my arms and legs out of “tough love”. And one time he deliberately exposed my naked chest in full view in order to degrade and violate me. As a result of all of those things, I keep getting these anxious thoughts about him doing even worse things to me. Like yelling at me, threatening me with violence if I don’t listen to him, and then stripping me of my clothes in order to do things to me. I am honestly afraid of him sexually assaulting me, perhaps in an attempt to “correct” me. I don’t really have any basis for this fear and I’m probably just anxious as fuck, but the fear is still there. And it still makes me feel weak, inconsolable, vulnerable, and violable.
I feel really scared and alone. I have no idea what I’m going to do. It’s like his foot is on my neck constantly and I’m powerless to stop him. I’ll always be hurt by him, and because of him I don’t think I will ever stop seeing myself as pathetic and worthless. He won, I lost.
And what’s also awful is that I am no longer comfortable with people touching me in general. I met a good friend of mine recently, and they offered to hug me. I refused because I felt too triggered by the thought of being touched. I still feel guilty about not accepting that hug, even though I know they care about respecting people’s boundaries. It hurts to have this kind of reaction to trauma because it makes hugging people offline very difficult, particularly when a hug would be the most soothing for me. I feel so disconnected with people, and I can’t help but feel that I have no one but myself to blame.
No he didn’t. You left and proved he couldn’t control you. You won.
Ally,
It’s not your fault you can’t have a healthy and close relationship with your dad. It’s his fault for being abusive. You have nothing to feel bad about.
Materially he no longer has control over me. I’m free to live without being dependent on him – financially and socially. But he has emotional control over me through my memories of him. No matter how much my life deviates from his, no matter how safe I am from being under his strictest control, no matter how much he doesn’t want to do anything with me, he will always have control over my emotions and my sense of safety and happiness. It is always up to him whether I am capable of being gentle to myself. That’s why he has won. Maybe he hasn’t won but I don’t want to say that because it will just make me sound self-congratulatory. Either way I think my beliefs have some basis in reality.
He has blamed me so much for his own abusiveness. He once told me “Get that rebellious look off your face” one time when I responded to his angry yelling with a calm contact. Usually I just stare at the floor in fear and desperately search for an opportunity to run to my room and lock the door. I displayed a subtle form of fearlessness and his response was physically, emotionally, and sexually abusing me in a span of 10 minutes that felt more like 10 hours. I didn’t resist him at all because I felt too scared. But I wonder if I was just weak. Maybe I could have stopped him. I could have told him no. But I was so fucking weak that I couldn’t do anything more than stand there and cry as he did those things to me. I’m so angry for not doing anything. I feel like it was an unforgivable mistake. I should never slip up and be a victim. It’s my fault for feeling weak, violable, and vulnerable.
I’m so confused. I know you’re right that it wasn’t my fault, but no matter what I keep getting these invasive thoughts about how I’m fucking worthless and deserved all of the abuse that was done to me because I’m nothing more than a creature to be degraded and humiliated. I want a normal life. I want to feel safe again. I don’t want to hate myself. But so far it all seems like it’s exactly what I deserve.
You don’t. You don’t, you don’t, you don’t. None of this is what you deserve. I know you feel like it is, but that’s the abuse talking. Please, please believe us Ally. You are worth so much more than that man could ever comprehend and all of this is his fault. Not yours. It has never been your fault. Trust us on that, please?
Ally, I can’t recall who said it in one of the open threads, but this jerkbrain stuff is what you need to get Rational Brain jumping on every time it pipes up. Treat it as a troll, shut it down with facts. Argue it into the ground. I know it’s hard, but it can be done.
Ally, I’m late reading this but I wanted to say:
This is not, not, not your fault. This is not NOT what you deserve. You deserve all the best.
This is NOT what you are condemned to for the rest of your life, either. It is unfortunately the hand you’ve been dealt – and that is not your fault either, it’s the fault of an abusive father who does not deserve you, and who could at any time have decided to treat you better – treat you as the person worthy of love and respect and care that you truly are.
It sucks utterly, and is a great and terrible sadness that he is apparently not adequate to the task of Being a Decent Father 101, but the responsibility for that lies with him, not with you.
But look at this, in spite of being landed with all this crap, you ARE dealing with it. You have taken steps to reduce your dependency on him: good for you! You are working to get to a place where you can limit your contact with him. You are reaching out in honesty and courage to folks who care about you and can support you. These are not small achievements already! You have my admiration and my best wishes.
I do understand what you mean about feeling assailed by memories of abuse. It has helped me to understand these as external to my self – trolls under the bridge, if you like, seconding Kittehserf, that will pop up and try and derail our minds from time to time. As with internet trolls, reason and mockery and sharing can help.
Abuse from a parent, a person who chose to have us but whom we did not get to choose, and which begins when we are small and vulnerable and they are the adult – how can that not be something external to our selves?
Good plan. Though having sat through someone going through CBT to deal with shitty family stuff, I know it’s easier said than done.
For a baby steps approach when you don’t have a therapist to guide you through, try avoiding or replacing words like ‘always’ and ‘never’ with more time limited expressions. Funnily enough, it’s better to use longwinded expressions that we’d normally try to avoid in clear writing – they’re vaguer and less threatening than the doom laden ‘never’ and ‘always’.
Beautifully said, bluecatbabe.
I do have at least one means of coping, but it is detrimental to my psyche. I tell myself that it’s okay if I face more and more abuse from people, and it’s okay if I suffer from accumulating trauma, because in the end it will mean that I am more capable of helping people like me. My self-esteem is so low that I am only able to view myself positively if I view myself as valuable only in relation to how people benefit from the things I do. On the one hand, it’s consoling and comforting, but on the other hand it subtly teaches me to view myself as worthless and pathetic.
Yeah, I’ve a couple of years of CBT under my belt, I know it isn’t easy to change the destructive patterns of thinking. But it’s a great tool for doing so.
Baby steps are the thing too. Dealing with this feeling, now, arguing troll brain on this point – it’s going to have to be done many times, but there’s a sense in which fake it till you make it applies, as the message gradually sinks in and the harmful patterns and emotions loosen their grip.