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no trolls allowed open thread

Do I need to crack down harder on trolls? A no-troll, no-MRA discussion thread

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This blog has been getting a lot more traffic lately. The downside is that we’ve had a lot more trolls here lately as well.

Because of this, and because of a shitty situation in one of the comment threads earlier tonight involving an abusive troll who I wish I had banned sooner, I want to open up a discussion to everyone here (that is, everyone here who is not a troll or an MRA).

The question is: Do I need to crack down harder on trolls?

Generally my approach has been to let trolls post unless and until they’re abusive. I know a lot of people here like engaging with trolls and taking them down.

The problem, of course, is that these trolls can quickly become abusive. And this can trigger people.

Should I be quicker to ban people — banning trolls at the first sign that they might become abusive rather than giving them the benefit of the doubt (which, unfortunately a lot of them don’t deserve)? Should I be stricter about who I let post in the first place?

There are actually a lot of people I don’t let post here at all; if their first comment is too aggressive or hostile or (obviously) contains a slur I don’t let their comments through. I’m especially strict when it comes to people posting in threads about women who’ve been harassed.

But I could be stricter, and I could ban more quickly if that’s what you think I should do.

Frankly, I gave up a long time ago on the idea that it’s possible to have any kind of “open debate” with these people. Too many of them are abusive assholes for that to work.

So my priority here is the regular feminist and feminist-friendly commenters on this blog, and coming up with a comment policy and procedures that work better for you all. There are people who enjoy and in many cases feel empowered by being able to confront the trolls here. But I don’t want, and I don’t think  any of us want, more situations like the one that happened tonight.

To be honest, I do think I need to crack down harder. I just want to hear what you all think on the issue, and to hear your suggestions as to how to do this most effectively.

The other aspect of this: I think I need to put up more no troll, no MRA open threads. And so I will be doing that.

Thoughts?

(I may not be able to get back to this thread for a little while, but I’ll definitely be back later in the evening.)

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Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
10 years ago

Ah, um, I haven’t really been a target since the days of NWO, but dear gods was it tiresome to know that every damned comment I made would be followed by him demanding statistics.

I liked the idea from the other thread of adding mods, with David getting the final call on banning. That way we can at least make them shut up and hopefully simmer down a bit when David isn’t around.

They can be fun when they’re just being idiots, and useful to hone my responses, but once they get abusive, and it does happen fast for some of them, they need to go NOW, not when David’s feline overlords give him a break.

Semi-related, I know on WP.org sites you can blacklist IPs, can you do that on .com and PLEASE get rid of Mr. Al and Pell for good?

/my 2¢

Chris Wilson
10 years ago

This place is kind of rare on the internet; a place where people can argue with MRAs and other antifeminists without having 50 of them jump on you with MRA talking points, and without you having to first debunk a bunch of antifeminist myths (We’re all members of SCUM! Feminists hate men!) before anyone will give you the right to speak. I think the site is valuable for that (and many other) reasons.

I agree with everyone else though that it’s better to mute the antifeminists when people are discussing something really vile that has happened, like the Elliot Rodger killing. There is a Canadian feminist whose blog I love dearly. She allows anyone to comment, which is fine, but after a post she wrote on Elliot Rodger there were so many hateful comments from antifeminists it was impossible to read the comment section, and it was difficult for people who had strong feelings of mourning, of apprehension and fear to express themselves, or so it seemed to me, without getting dragged into arguments. It would have been better if trolls had been prevented from replying to that particular post, as they were here.

piratejennie
10 years ago

I am a recent de-lurker so I am hesitant to comment among regulars, but I would like to contribute more consistently so…

T/W: Sexual assault & child abuse

First, I am only speaking for myself and have complete respect and empathy for those who want or need a safer environment.

I like the “feed the trolls until they burst” policy that is in play on most threads. However, occasionally topics come up within these threads I cannot or am not always able to comment on (such as rape & sexual assault or the sexual abuse of children) because I am not confident in my ability to retain my composure & they leave me feeling exposed as a target. Sometimes I just stop reading these threads entirely. Sometimes I continue reading to see the trolls get thoroughly trounced & subsequently flounce.

That being said, I entered into this space knowingly. David states quite clearly that not everyone will find this a safe space and that there will be discussions that could be triggering. I know I can be triggered by many of the posts and comments and choose to be here.

I think the inclusion of troll free zones is a good way to accommodate discussions on topics that people might not feel safe bringing up in other posts and to address triggering comments in a friendly supportive space.

I also think kittehserf had a good idea about bringing in moderators to lighten the load on David since he cannot be on every thread at once making sure there isn’t someone who minded their manners long enough to get by running amok. Moderators might also serve to rein in more abusive and threatening trolls who might potentially attack regulars and prevent newbies from participating.

Thanks to all again for being such a friendly and fun community to be around. You have made me feel comfortable and welcome from the outset and that is so greatly appreciated.

piratejennie
10 years ago

Oh, adding my support for the ban on Mike B.

The non-stop flogging of his blog and his rigid presentation are tiresome in the extreme. I would challenge him to develop a sense of humor and the ability to identify irony but why bother?

Tigerbos
Tigerbos
10 years ago

I say this should be a no troll zone. It’s bad enough we have to put up with their crap on the web. This is the one place I like to go where I don’t have to be subjected to their moronic views.

piratejennie
10 years ago

And OT, but holy cats did I choose a bad time to get bronchitis & stay off non-work related sites for a few days. I have some major catching up to do. *rubs hands together gleefully*

weirwoodtreehugger
10 years ago

It’s off topic but may I offer a kitty video?

kamilla1960
kamilla1960
10 years ago

I don’t know, David. I have followed your blog faithfully for quite a while and it has been a great source of comfort in my current situation. Your way of dealing with persistent unpleasant commentators appears to be correct (I think you block them after a warning). I have not been returning to the comments section much because during the first period when I was making some contributions, I encountered some hostility which was frankly dismaying at the time. With trolls, it is often useful to see how disgusting they can be. In any case, do what you think works best for yourself and readers of your blog.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
10 years ago

Tigerbos — not gonna happen as a whole. More troll free threads, sure, but ban them outright? I’m very much against it, and I think I can safely say so are at least a handful of the other regulars.

WWTH — kitties are always on topic!

piratejennie
10 years ago

@weirwoodtreehugger

Kitty videos are never off topic IMHO and I especially love a good cat loaf.

mildlymagnificent
10 years ago

Bystander syndrome!!

I’ve realised I’ve held back too often. I’ve never emailed David about anything. Reading this I’ve just realised that what I’ve really been doing is presuming someone else would deal with things.

If more of us were more prepared to message David, even if it’s just a “watch this guy” early warning note, he’d be in a better position to step in earlier. David doesn’t want 100s of messages a day, too many would be just as hard to manage as too few. But if more of us were more inclined to hesitate for a minute before dismissing someone as just another Creep/ Troll/ Windbag, we should have the mindset that we should send David a message to that effect. It might be that our creep-dar is buzzing a bit and he should have a good look at him/her, or that we think a CTW is lined up for moderation so sooner would be better than later, or that the banhammer needs a workout right now.

In the one that we just had with that PUA creepy shitweasel, a “moderation sooner – before he really fucks up” message might have avoided the worst of his horribleness. Won’t always prevent every problem, but we should be able to cut down the numbers and/or the severity of the creepynasty that makes it through.

Chris Wilson
10 years ago

I like the idea of giving a few other Mamotheers the ability to ban people provisionally when David isn’t around, to prevent trolls from going after an individual.

pecunium
10 years ago

I don’t have a problem with moderators (when I was had posting privileges in other fora, I also had moderating privileges on those posts. I have taken away a set of vowels: it was with someone I actually agreed with, but that person had gone over the line in how they responded to someone).

As I said, I a a big fan of disemvowelment, in part because anyone who gets so treated can’t really say, “My Freeze Peach”. The words are there, but the immediate impact is removed. I know that the few times someone has directed vitriol at me which had been stripped of vowel the work required (even with context) to reconstruct it made it more of an intellectual curiosity than a visceral reaction.

I know this isn’t true for everyone.

It also shows the rest of the world what is, and isn’t, tolerated.

NintenEthan
NintenEthan
10 years ago

Hey y’all, I know I’m late to all of this, but could somebody tell me which troll got abusive? I’m just wondering.

Ellie
10 years ago

Does anyone else here remember ema the emo? Well, holy shit: http://www.donotlink.com/llf

Isabelle
Isabelle
10 years ago

Long time lurker, recent poster, so my 2 cents is more like a penny. I have moderated for quite a while on a busy mental health forum. There is no win-win scenario that will accommodate all posters. Too heavy ban hammer, and it becomes too sanitized and boring for some, not enough, and its Triggering Fest. And in even with heavy moderation, there is always something that goes through that will trigger somebody. You seem to maintain a vibrant and engaged community. In my book, it indicates you do a darn fine job at keeping the balance.

pratheekreddy68
10 years ago

You really gotta be hard on them…. They shouldn’t be given oppertunities

Ally S
10 years ago

@NintenEthan

There was some creepy rape apologist dude on this thread who had blatantly pro-rape views and questioned my experience of sexual assault.

Ally S
10 years ago

Speaking as one of the folks occasionally targeted by creepy trolls:

I understand that a lot of trolls are just complete fools demonstrating all of the defining characteristics such as abysmal reading comprehension, pretentiousness, and absurd degrees of denial about the oppressiveness of their ideology. And we can probably afford to let those trolls stick around simply because of how entertaining they can be. (Unless we’re talking about folks like Brz, who long deserved a ban simply for being unusually tedious and obnoxious as fuck, as I remember him at least.)

But sometimes there are trolls here who are persistently horrible and troll people in ways that are abusive, and unfortunately I have seen quite a few not really get banned as soon as they should. The abusive trolls seem to indicate certain signs of abusive behavior that aren’t always clear, but they are there. For instance, a troll who blatantly supports rape is likely to be shitty towards someone who, say, talks about their own rape as it pertains to the argument. So I think the most important thing, aside from your thoughtful suggestion about making more no-MRA threads, is to ban assholes more readily and try to look for earlier signs of abusiveness as well.

NintenEthan
NintenEthan
10 years ago

@AllyS
Holy shit.
Just…holy shit.
The amount of hatred that guy must have is amazing.
I’m so sorry that he put you through that shit.

kittehserf
10 years ago

WWTH – kitty vids are never off-topic.

But, but … that kitty was sitting on a hard chair.

MISCATRY!

Tigerbos — not gonna happen as a whole. More troll free threads, sure, but ban them outright? I’m very much against it, and I think I can safely say so are at least a handful of the other regulars.

I agree. Whack-a-troll is partly what makes this blog the place it is. Plus, the trolls themselves are sometimes sources of posts.

mildlymagnificent, I agree: I don’t know how many people do email David, but I’ve felt like I was emailing him every day with this recent influx. Some sort of alert for moderation, if not outright banning, would be good, I think.

I’m not a fan of disemvowelling; I find it more irritating than anything else. Does WP have the capacity to hide a comment unless one actually clicks on it?

wewereemergencies
wewereemergencies
10 years ago

Ally sorry you had to go through that. Hugs if you want.

pecunium
10 years ago

Oi… Emma, who once said:

men inexplicably fuck old, post-menopausal women too. You’d think a woman who checks neither of the boxes would be sexless. But it is simply isn’t true in the real world. I guess the fact that women are the gatekeepers of sex is so powerful, it ends up covering the old infertile women also….

I think I know what draws them in, and it makes evolutionary sense. Older women still have many of the features of a fertile woman – the figure, the voice, the feminine face.

So much fail in such a compact space.

footnotegirl
footnotegirl
10 years ago

I wish that there was some way that you could do what they do on amazon and a few other comment type set ups, which is that after a certain amount of down votes you get a “Other readers think that this comment does not add to the discussion, click here to view it.” except instead of saying that, have it be a ‘trigger’ vote and “Other readers think that this comment is triggering or offensive, click here to read it.” which would allow people to avoid reading triggery stuff while allowing troll-chewers to have at. The moderator can always come back at will later and either delete it or make it open viewing.

BreakfastMan
BreakfastMan
10 years ago

Eh, some tightening couldn’t be too bad, but not too much. Sometimes people make mistakes and/or don’t think their comments through. I remember my first couple posts here, I slipped and used an ablest term. I did acknowledge my mistake, but I don’t think it would have helped to have banned me outright for a small slip-up. I kind of like that 3-strikes system mentioned earlier. Sounds like it could filter out trolls fairly well, yet not instantly ban people who slip up sometimes.