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a voice for men MRA

Is A Voice for Men's conference kaput? Doubletree says "they are not booked with us." [UPDATE: Elam says they have another venue.]

carwheels

Woah! Just wanted to pass along this news from the Motor City Muckraker:

A controversial conference for a men’s rights group in Detroit appears to be in jeopardy after a fallout with downtown’s Hilton DoubleTree, which planned to host the event from June 26-28.

The inaugural conference at the DoubleTree has been canceled for unknown reasons, and organizers of the first International Conference on Men’s Issues haven’t said yet whether it will be moved to another hotel and conference center.

“At this time, they are not booked with us,” Larry Brown, manager of the DoubleTree, said this morning. He declined to elaborate on the cancelation.

There’s nothing on A Voice for Men about this latest development, though Esmay hinted during his Fox News appearance that they were possibly going to reconsider the Doubletree. But as of right now, AVFM is still selling tickets, as if the Doubletree convention is still a going concern.

Are they going to try to book the convention elsewhere? Or are they going to take the $29,000 they raised for “security” and, I dunno, send Esmay to a better stylist?

One other, ah, interesting detail in the Motor City Muckraker story:

When asked Tuesday whether the event would be moved, an organizer responded: “The DoubleTree GM (general manager) actually said that he has ‘feminist phobia’ and sort of laughed but in a nervous way. So its being discussed.”

It’s questionable whether this conversation ever occurred because the general manager is a woman.

Yeah. Seems like a lot of things about this convention have been pretty questionable from the start.

UPDATE: Well, one thing’s a bit clearer now, though. I called the Detroit Police and they confirmed that the Doubletree did indeed report to them that it had received threats. Who sent them, we still don’t know, but I think we can all agree that whether the threats came from some misguided feminist or “progressive” or from an MRA trying to stir shit and make feminists look bad, whoever made the threatening calls is a shithead who deserves to face the legal consequences for what they did.

UPDATE 2: According to the Detroit News, Elam says they’ve got another venue:

“We have scheduled another venue and will make an announcement on the site this evening,” group founder Paul Elam said in an email Wednesday.

So far no announcement on AVFM; I’ll post about it when there is one.

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Ally S
6 years ago

I’ve been sexually assaulted before and I didn’t resist or even show visible discomfort. But I complied with him because he was my tae kwon do teacher and I had no say in objecting to what he did to me. I was powerless. Are you going to fucking call that something without any basis? Go fuck yourself, troll.

Alejandro
Alejandro
6 years ago

Ok, I specify: Most women prefer dominant males. Not all of them of course. There is usually the excpetion to the rule, bust the vast majority of them do. That I can tell from my own experience with women, from the comments of plenty of female friends, and from the experience of literally thousand of men who have said that their results with women got better after they gained confidence and started to act more dominant with them. You can can me creep and scream until you are blue, but you guys know this is true. Feel free to keep in denial if it makes you feel better.

titianblue
titianblue
6 years ago

@Alejandro, citation needed. Because anecdotes aren’t data. And “literally thousands”. Really? You do know what “literally” actually means, right?

So an independent peer reviewed study, please. Because otherwise it’s just PUA propaganda that you’ve swallowed, sweetie.

Ann Somerville
6 years ago

“Verbally asking is a huge turn off for most women.”

Dude, you must know some damn weird women. Being asked is a huge turn *on*.

Being raped, not so much. Having sex when you really don’t want to is creepy and nasty and no fun whatsoever.

Your sex life is a scary place. If it doesn’t exist in your imagination, which I suspect it might.

Ally S
6 years ago

What…how exactly him being your taekwon teacher means you could not simply say: “I don’t want you to touch me that way.”?

Excuse me?

kittehserf
6 years ago

Does anyone really want to argue that submissive men are more attractive to women than dominant men, or you just want to argue for the shake of it?

Oh, like those are the only choices? You’re almost as stupid about men as you are about women. Let this burst your brain: I don’t like either in a man.

Verbally asking is a huge turn off for most women. Plus you can usually tell if a woman is up for it from body language alone.

“Most women”? How many of the more-than-three-billion women this planet do you know, to make that assumption? I’m a woman. The idea of some man not even bothering to talk to me is disgusting.

weirwoodtreehugger
6 years ago

Do we need to post this quote again Rapejandro?

Physically pick her up and sit her on your lap. Don’t ask for permission. Be dominant. Force her to rebuff your advances.
Pull out your cock and put her hand on it. Remember, she is letting you do this because you have established yourself as a LEADER. Don’t ask for permission, GRAB HER HAND, and put it right on your dick.

Unless you are getting very clear verbal or non-verbal signals that this is welcome, it is in fact sexual assault. The idea of a man I don’t know picking me up and putting his dick in my hand without consent is fucking terrifying.

Sigh. This is what happens when a bunch of women and male feminist try to make sens of PUA advice. They fail to understand even the most basic concepts.

I take PUAs at their word. That’s why I know they are creepy and potentially rapists. By the way, Rhoosh the douche has admitted to raping a woman who was too drunk to consent.

The reason why PUA advice men to isolate women is not so they will be afraid of saying no, but because women do not want to be seen as sluts in front of their friends nor they want to get a bad reputation in their social circle, so a woman is far more likely to accept your advances if other people can’t see her. Anyone with the slightest experience with women knows that fact.

This is utter nonsense. I do have some experience with women considering I am one and the majority of my good friends are women too. This isn’t the Victorian times. In most circles it is socially acceptable to hook up with a guy. The word ‘slut’ as a gendered insult is common but it usually has little to do with a woman having pre-marital sex. It’s used as a go to insult people use anytime a woman does something to them. You shouldn’t need to quickly isolate a woman from her friends to have sex if she is cool with one night stands in the first place.

In fact, one of the core PUA concepts is that you need to generate attraction AND comfort with a woman in order to make her want to have sex with you, which is completely the opossite of scaring her.

Read the quote above again. Behavior like that does anything but generate comfort. It doesn’t generate attraction either because the goal is to not give her the opportunity to refuse in the first place.

Another fact is that, generally, women do like dominant men. You can complain about it all you want, but it is true. Women are usually not attracted to the submissive guy that verballly ask her if he can kiss her, or worse, just stays there and waits for the woman to make a move like it happens in hollywood films. They do prefer the guy who is bold and confident and doesn’t ask permission for every single thing he wants to do. Again, this is a fact. If you disagree with this you are either a 14 year old virgin or live in a different universe.

I assure you I am neither 14 nor a virgin. There is a big difference between being pushy and forcing yourself on someone and waiting for non-verbal cues that a kiss is women. Most humans are adept enough at reading body language that they can tell when a kiss is wanted. PUA manuals encourage men to not take what the woman actually wants into account.

And no, woman aren’t usually attracted to “dominant” “alpha males.” I have had my share of casual hook ups. Every time it’s been with a guy who talked to me like an actual human being, not a blow up doll with a pulse. I find witty and interesting men attractive. I do not find sleazy pushy guys who violate boundaries attractive. Guys like that get nowhere with me. This isn’t something unusual. I don’t know any women who find guys like that attractive. And no, my friends aren’t uptight prudes.

Please stop pretending you know more women than women themselves do.

The PUA manual advice should be read in that context.

No. I’m not going to look for some imaginary hidden context. Not when the intentions of PUA are plain.

While I agree some things are creepy, the truth is most of his general advice WILL work. And I think most feminist know this deep down, even if they don’t admit it.

You agree the advice will creep most women out and you still think it’s ok to do it? Gross. No it doesn’t work. Not on most women. There’s a reason PUAs are mocked not just by feminists, but anyone else who isn’t one.

The guy who goes out and boldly hits on women is going to end up being far more succesfull with women than the guy who is too scared to make a move.

PUA tactics aren’t the only way. You’re acting as if there’s some sort of dichotomy between using sleazy PUA manuals and sitting alone in a corner. That’s nonsense. There’s also the treat women like human beings option. It works very well. Better than PUA.

If PUA works so well, how come you’re not swimming in hb10’s instead of on a feminist blog defending sexual assault?

pallygirl
pallygirl
6 years ago

Go away Alejando, you’re not just typing words here, you’re hurting people.

I would accuse you of being clueless, but you are willfully ignorant at best.

Just go away.

Ann Somerville
6 years ago

“Anyone with the slightest experience with women knows that fact”

And yet, real women are telling you that you are talking out of your front bottom.

You don’t see the problem, do you.

Ally S
6 years ago

I was 14-years-old and he was a man in his 50s with far greater strength and agility than me. And on top of that he was my teacher. Do you know what a fucking power differential is?

Ann Somerville
6 years ago

“how exactly him being your taekwon teacher means you could not simply say: “I don’t want you to touch me that way.”?”

I’ll use small words. He teacher. He in charge. He stronger. He better at martial arts. Woman scared he kill her.

You fucknozzle.

titianblue
titianblue
6 years ago

Seriously, are you 12?

Seriously, are you? Have you ever actually had consensual sex*? I think you’ll find that a lot of people actually say things during it. Sometimes quite loudly.

pallygirl
pallygirl
6 years ago

@Ally: he’s expanded his repertoire to survivor-blaming.

What a hero.

Ally S
6 years ago

Have some fucking compassion for people who were assaulted in atypical ways, you asshole. We fucking exist. We matter. Stop talking over us and listen to what we have to say. We have been hurt, we have been assaulted, and we would never wish the same on anyone else. Learn to empathize or GTFO.

titianblue
titianblue
6 years ago

@Ally S, i’ve sent an email & asked David to ban Alejandro for that repulsive piece of victim blaming.

i am sorry about what happened to you and I’m sorry that this piece of fish-shit said that to you. Are you ok?

strivingally
6 years ago

That PUA tactics work best on women who have most strongly socialised into not enforcing their boundaries when men test them is a feature, not a bug. “Negging”, “direct game”, “escalating kino”, “compliance momentum”, etc etc. are all about pushing to see if a woman will act the way you expect and not make a scene when you intrude on her social space or try to ignore her verbal and non-verbal resistance.

Please don’t patronise us by pretending we don’t understand your bullshit. It’s about treating women as interchangeable insertion points for your cock, and just like a teenage cracker looking for the easiest computer system to break into, you guys have specific ways of finding the low-hanging fruit – in this case, women who aren’t assertive enough to stand their ground when you try to invade their space or demean them, or whose self-esteem is tied up in male attention and who are willing to put up with your macho crap to get it.

Ally S
6 years ago

No, I’m not feeling well. I had an anxiety attack earlier today. I made a mistake in trying to argue with this man because his words have inadvertently re-triggered my anxiety.

Listen, troll. Not everyone assaulted in ways that you can think of. There is a great diversity among SA survivors. Just because you might think it’s absurd doesn’t mean that what happened to us wasn’t real or didn’t matter. All that is required for a sexual act to be non-consensual is for one or more of the people involved in the act to be not consenting. That’s it. Threats, force, etc. are merely means of coercion and do not define the possibilities of sexual assault. Please just listen to victims and empathize with them. And support them. That’s all I ask.

weirwoodtreehugger
6 years ago

Does anyone really want to argue that submissive men are more attractive to women than dominant men, or you just want to argue for the shake of it?

Once again you are setting up a false dichotomy. How can we discuss which women prefer when you haven’t even properly established that every man fits into a dominant box or a submissive box. Normally when discussing sex I only see those terms applied to people into kink (and this might blow your mind but there are plenty of female doms and male subs who are very happy with their sexual relationships). They aren’t really blanket terms.

Again, there’s a difference between talking to and flirting with women and acting like a pushy creep.

Ally S
6 years ago

Thanks, David.

Ann Somerville
6 years ago

Ally, do you mind if I offer you a hug? You shouldn’t have had to go through that then, and you sure as fuck shouldn’t have to go through this now so some arsewipe can get his jollies arguing with women.

When I tackled David on Twitter about the MRA trolls hurting people, even though you guys obviously can handle them and mostly have fun doing so, this kind of situation is what I was talking about. These people are sociopaths and they don’t care who they hurt or how long it takes to get the reaction they’re after. They don’t deserve attention or blog space because they *always* abuse it. That’s what they are, abusers, pure and simple. Amusing to mock in small doses, dangerous in larger.

Although you guys do a wonderful job of deconstructing them. Brava.

Ann Somerville
6 years ago

Thank you, David. I was typing while you were taking action.

Ally S
6 years ago

Ann, he wasn’t a sociopath. There are many sociopaths who understand their dangerous mental tendencies and actively ensure that they don’t harm anyone. He was an asshole, not a sociopath. Please don’t complicate this further by adding mental illness to the mix. It’s disrespectful to sociopaths who, despite their deficient capacity for empathy, are still capable of being kind.

titianblue
titianblue
6 years ago

All the jedi hugz you’d like, Ally.

Ann Somerville
6 years ago

Sorry, Ally.

kittehserf
6 years ago

Thanks, David. It didn’t take long for that creep to make his rape apologia – or advocacy – obvious.

weirwoodtreehugger
6 years ago

Hugs if you want them Ally.

Rapejandro,

What you said to Ally was completely disgusting and unacceptable. It is never, ever OK for a coach or a teacher to make advances on a student. Especially when that student is a minor. As far as I know, a 14 year old can not legally consent in any state.

Ally S
6 years ago

I hope I didn’t sound too upset at you, Ann. I’m just really unstable right now and may sound like I’m snapping at people, and there are some folks here who continually refuse to be not disablist, so part of me was worried that you would react the same way since it’s common here. But I’m glad you understand. I’m not upset at anyone but the trolls…

weirwoodtreehugger
6 years ago

Ninja’d by the ban hammer. Good. Thanks David.

titianblue
titianblue
6 years ago

Brain bleach – firefighters rescue kittens

pallygirl
pallygirl
6 years ago

Thanks David.

Ally, really sorry that you had to go through that. 🙁

Ally S
6 years ago

Should I be quicker to ban people? Stricter about who I let post in the first place?

Yes to both. It’s not like you have to ban all trolls, but a lot of them should be banned pretty quickly or even stopped from commenting altogether. Thank you for your consideration.

weirwoodtreehugger
6 years ago

I think I’ll defer to others here. I never get triggered by trolls even when they’re completely repugnant but I know others feel differently. It is fun to use them as chew toys sometimes but I don’t want any non-trolls hurt either.

We can also take some of the responsibility and email you faster if someone is being gross. We know you can’t monitor every thread 24/7.

kittehserf
6 years ago

I’d like to see the banhammer come down a bit more quickly. The only outstanding example is Brz: I think he should have been banned long before he was.

LBT (with writeathon poll!)

RE: Alejandro

So let me see if I got this right, do you think a man who pulls out his penis in the presence of a woman just raped her??

That’s not what I said. You made a statement about a book you hadn’t read. I merely remarked that when someone quibbles about the EXACT definitions of sexual assault vs. rape, it tends to make them look creepy. And you’re a creep, Alejandro. A smug creep.

RE: trolls

Even when I get upset, honestly, just being able to fight back against them makes me feel like it was worth my upset. It lets me feel like I’m DOING something, instead of just grinning and bearing it the way I have to in… well, basically all other contexts.

Ann Somerville
6 years ago

“I’m just really unstable right now and may sound like I’m snapping at people”

Hon, you have every right to be. I was taken aback, sure, because I was using the term in the colloquial “lack any empathy” sense, but you were right to call me out. And I know better because I suffer from mental illness and hell, people have tried to use that against me.

I should have just said “lacks any empathy” and left it at that.

We’re good. But I need to lurk more, I think.

“Should I be quicker to ban people? Stricter about who I let post in the first place? ”

Yes and yes. That tosser showed his true colours pretty much in his first two comments, and should have been modded off. I’m used to more explicitly feminist spaces where tolerance of this is very low, though, because the women owners get directly harassed by these bastards as well.

Maybe you need more mods who can at least hide a comment until you make a final decision.

Dunno. I’m so not in favour of giving these creeps airtime because they have the entire *world* to play in. But I understand the enjoyment of bouncing them off walls too.

LBT (with writeathon poll!)

Ann, my reasoning is, I want these assholes exposed. Mocking them is cathartic for me. Sure, folks like Brz were just tedious as hell, so I wouldn’t mind seeing the “bannably boring” offense tightened up. But we haven’t had an entertaining troll in a while now.

titianblue
titianblue
6 years ago

I’m one in favour of the mocking of trolls here – I agree though that there’s been the odd one that should have been moderated/banned earlier. I feel that I’ve been silly in not emailing more quickly to alert David but then I felt like I’d been doing it a fair bit recently. Not a good reason for me not to alert him to problems – sorry.

I nearly emailed about Mike B’s DV joke since I found it pretty offensive & wondered if Mike B needed moderating.

Hi JudgyBitch, good to see a top ‘Honey Badger’ here. I see Dave’s intrepid band of followers have found out about MRA Island – damn! – and they’ve also guessed the internet connections there are unreliable, at best. AVfM will have to do another fundraiser to sort that out. At least they don’t know yet about the wife-beater stick production line at the Patriarchy factory on the island. I understand the sticks are manufactured to a thickness just 0.001″ less than the average man’s thumb, to avoid the obvious legal risks.

weirwoodtreehugger
6 years ago

Maybe a separate post for discussion of banning and moderation criteria would be in order? We could discuss and try to come with a list of things we mostly all agree is and isn’t a bannable offense. The comments policy as it stands is it bit vague. It’s mostly just up to David’s discretion right now, which of course is his right because it’s his blog. Just an idea.

kittehserf
6 years ago

But I understand the enjoyment of bouncing them off walls too.

Love that wording. Bouncy bouncy chew-toys!

http://youtu.be/AUOvN3HmJlY

kittehserf
6 years ago

I should add: I don’t get triggered by trolls. Scornful, sometimes angry or disgusted, mostly contemptuous, often can’t even be bothered reading their walls o’ text. I enjoy the mocking. But I would like them banned sooner when they’ve set people’s trolldars pinging – like that Erin loser.

titianblue
titianblue
6 years ago

What Kittehs said. And it’s the early hours of the morning here & I should have been asleep hours ago.

Night all.

LBT (with writeathon poll!)

Enh, I get triggered every once in a while, but again, for me, it’s worth being able to DO something about it.

F’rex, I get triggered every fucking time I get an email or (worse) a phone call from my folks, and part of the upset is that I know that I MUST NOT RESPOND. All I can do is ignore them as hard as I can, and that doesn’t really leave me feeling an active participant in my own destiny, you know? The trolls, if they upset me, I can snark and mock and rant at them, which feels way better.

pecunium
6 years ago

Alejandro: I said that what AVfM did was over the top rethoric instead of outright lying, but where on earth did I said that doing it was “totally OK”?? Go ahead and show me.

Here ya’ go.

The “child abusers” thing is also an example of over the top rethoric, but again, is not like they accused them of any specific child abuse incident

You said it was just, “over the top rhetoric”, and then dismissed by saying they didn’t concretise it to a speficially rebuttable charge, so “no-harm, no-foul”.

Thing is, I studied rhetoric (and libel), so I can see what tools, tricks, and tropes you are trying to employ. The subtle dodges to let the real effect of the words you are minimising slide past. All without actually coming right out and saying, “I’m totes ok with people on my side being slimey bastard”, so you can later claim, “I didn’t say that you are are putting words in my mouth.

Well, if we are, it’s just because that’s where they came from.

Anyone with half a brain can see the difference between over the top rethoric and a factual accusation.

Which is why you have no complaints about the rhetoric of 2nd wave radical feminists like McKinnon and Dworkin?, and the MRM never mentions them at all as examples of what evil things feminists what to do to men.

Right… I mean it’s just “over the top rhetoric” right?*

Feminist do it too. Remember when Kickstarter was funding this seduction manual that adviced pulling out your dick with a girl, and how nearly every single feminist went on refering to it as a “rape”manual? Newsflash: Pulling out your dick is not the same as raping a woman. At worst, it could be sexual assault, but it is not rape. So I will agree that the AVfM guy is a lier if you agree that all these feminist who refered to the kickstarter project as a rape manual are liers. Deal?

No deal.

Because you are being dishonest about what that book did, and about what, “rape manual” meant.

1: No one who is trying to sell a book about, “seduction” is going to write: Get her drunk, and when she’s passed out, fuck her, if she comes to, hold her down until you’re done. Don’t worry, if she presses charges you can say, “I thought she wanted it”.

2: No single passage in any “seduction” manual is going to look like a building block to rape. So unless you are going to introduce the entire book into evidence, you are lying through omission when you present one sentence as dispositive.

3:At worst, it could be sexual assault, but it is not rape.

So that makes it all right then?

Again, the devices you are using are really simple attempts at misdirection, You’ll have to do better than that.

*and the actual quotation of Elam is:

Right now we have people like Jessica Valenti and David Futrelle out there pathologizing any reaction to their violently hateful agenda, drawing parallels between psychotic mass murderers and MRAs; arguing that the former is somehow a product of the latter. All while they defend policies that result in self-immolation, other forms of suicide, the loss of human rights and systematic, widespread child abuse.

Yes, child abuse.

No, he didn’t say they, themselves, committed abuse, he is comparing them to those who cheered on the US Cavalry as they killed Native Americans, or the Good Russians, who said the policies which led to the Holodomor were “good for Russia”.

He is saying they connive at real abuse, and cheer it on. He is calling them collaborators, at least, and architects, at most. It’s more than “over the top rhetoric”

Moreover, the headline isn’t anywhere near that nuanced, and if one has no reason to wade through all of Elam’s wandering word-salad, all one sees it the bald-faced accusation of a criminal act.

pallygirl
pallygirl
6 years ago

Agree with coming up with a list of criteria. I had also emailed David about him.

However, David’s obviously not around 24/7 because work and sleep and play, so even a prompt email isn’t always going to get a rapid response (for whatever definition of rapid).

I don’t know how comments end up in moderation, but is there some sort of “new person” plus certain words thing that can be modified to auto-send someone to moderation, where David can look at the posts to see if they should be let through.

Also: if you’re feeling triggered, please look after yourself first. There are at least two threads where I’ve said I’m being triggered and butting out. Please don’t feel that you need to keep reading a thread where there is someone being a complete arsehole to defend yourself – you don’t need to defend, survivors Didn’t. Fucking. Do. Anything. Wrong. And. Don’t. Need. To. Post. To. Justify. What. They. Did. Or. Didn’t. Do.

Fuck anyone who tries to pull someone into that type of commenting. It’s fucking cruel.

pecunium
6 years ago

Alejandro: Sigh. This is what happens when a bunch of women and male feminist try to make sens of PUA advice. They fail to understand even the most basic concepts.

Actually… I take them at face value. I look at the whole of the oeuvre, and I see common theads. I see some who confess to commiting rape (because, “having sex is what I do”) and at least one who is in jail for assaulting a woman with a firearm.

I also have my sex life to look back at, and that of my friends, and that of my lovers, etc. I know that, not using any of the tripe in the PUA-bag-o’-tricks, I’ve had a pretty good sex life to date (with more than the average number of partners, not that this is relevant to me, or them, or any other person of wit, but in the “notch-count” mad world of PUA, I know I have ‘street-cred”).

So yes, I have read your works, and examined “the most basic concepts” and I reject them, as balderdash. They are full of confounded variables. The one truth in them is that if one doesn’t go out and risk rejection, one can’t get acceptance.

All the rest is, by and large, a recipe for commiting (at the very least) sexual assult, if not rape.

n fact, one of the core PUA concepts is that you need to generate attraction AND comfort with a woman in order to make her want to have sex with you, which is completely the opossite of scaring her.

Really?

So you think this is how you do that?

Decide that you’re going to sit in a position where you can rub her leg and back. Physically pick her up and sit her on your lap. Don’t ask for permission. Be dominant. Force her to rebuff your advances.
Pull out your cock and put her hand on it. Remember, she is letting you do this because you have established yourself as a LEADER. Don’t ask for permission, GRAB HER HAND, and put it right on your dick.

<i.The PUA manual advice should be read in that context

How convenient: the PUA manuals should be read in this a priori assumption that they are based on true and correct knowledge of women. This is based on what?

It’s certainly at odds with the somewhat more than 30 years of experience I have with women.