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a voice for men MRA

Is A Voice for Men's conference kaput? Doubletree says "they are not booked with us." [UPDATE: Elam says they have another venue.]

carwheels

Woah! Just wanted to pass along this news from the Motor City Muckraker:

A controversial conference for a men’s rights group in Detroit appears to be in jeopardy after a fallout with downtown’s Hilton DoubleTree, which planned to host the event from June 26-28.

The inaugural conference at the DoubleTree has been canceled for unknown reasons, and organizers of the first International Conference on Men’s Issues haven’t said yet whether it will be moved to another hotel and conference center.

“At this time, they are not booked with us,” Larry Brown, manager of the DoubleTree, said this morning. He declined to elaborate on the cancelation.

There’s nothing on A Voice for Men about this latest development, though Esmay hinted during his Fox News appearance that they were possibly going to reconsider the Doubletree. But as of right now, AVFM is still selling tickets, as if the Doubletree convention is still a going concern.

Are they going to try to book the convention elsewhere? Or are they going to take the $29,000 they raised for “security” and, I dunno, send Esmay to a better stylist?

One other, ah, interesting detail in the Motor City Muckraker story:

When asked Tuesday whether the event would be moved, an organizer responded: “The DoubleTree GM (general manager) actually said that he has ‘feminist phobia’ and sort of laughed but in a nervous way. So its being discussed.”

It’s questionable whether this conversation ever occurred because the general manager is a woman.

Yeah. Seems like a lot of things about this convention have been pretty questionable from the start.

UPDATE: Well, one thing’s a bit clearer now, though. I called the Detroit Police and they confirmed that the Doubletree did indeed report to them that it had received threats. Who sent them, we still don’t know, but I think we can all agree that whether the threats came from some misguided feminist or “progressive” or from an MRA trying to stir shit and make feminists look bad, whoever made the threatening calls is a shithead who deserves to face the legal consequences for what they did.

UPDATE 2: According to the Detroit News, Elam says they’ve got another venue:

“We have scheduled another venue and will make an announcement on the site this evening,” group founder Paul Elam said in an email Wednesday.

So far no announcement on AVFM; I’ll post about it when there is one.

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sparky
sparky
6 years ago

So you’re saying you ARE perfectly ok with calling someone a child-abuser. Because this is what Elam actually said:

Right now we have people like Jessica Valenti and David Futrelle out there pathologizing any reaction to their violently hateful agenda, drawing parallels between psychotic mass murderers and MRAs; arguing that the former is somehow a product of the latter. All while they defend policies that result in self-immolation, other forms of suicide, the loss of human rights and systematic, widespread child abuse.
Yes, child abuse. Children who are robbed of their fathers by the courts, and sometimes later with handguns, or gasoline and matches, are abuse victims. Children in the care of abused fathers that have nowhere to turn are destined for rejection and destructive neglect before the first call for help is made. And the likes of Futrelle, Valenti, NOMAS, Kellett, the 53 scumbags on reddit and the perhaps 53 million other scumbags they represent are part and parcel to that abuse every bit as much as people like Casey Anthony.

Elam is not accusing David and Jessica Valenti of supporting policies that allow child abuse to continue as part of some over-the-top rhetoric, he’s flat out calling them accessories to child abuse and likening them to Casey Anthony. The title of the piece is “Valenti, Futrelle and other child abusers.”

Yes, he is calling them child abusers.

Yes, that is a serious accusation.

And you’re perfectly ok with that?

LBT (with writeathon poll!)

RE: Alejandro

At worst, it could be sexual assault, but it is not rape.

I feel like I should frame this on my wall for being the Platonic Ideal of Creepery. Do you even see yourself, Alejandro? When you start quibbling on the exact line between rape and sexual assault, that’s… questionable.

I tried but they told me I’m so hot the reaction would get out of control.

…ew.

weirwoodtreehugger
6 years ago

Alejandro is also apparently OK with a “seduction” guide promoting sexually assaulting women as long is it isn’t rape.

But pulling a fire alarm at an MRA talk? Oh the misandry! The worst thing ever!

Alejandro
Alejandro
6 years ago

Are we reading the same thing, because it says very clearly that they are “defending policies … that result in widespread child abuse”. Yes, I agree the title is very misleading, as I said way above, and no, I don’t think using such a misleading title is “perfectly ok”. But there is a big difference between that and lying.

scott1139
scott1139
6 years ago

I tried but they told me I’m so hot the reaction would get out of control.

That’s a shame. It would have been a much better use of your unique talents, too. Oh well…

LBT (with writeathon poll!)

RE: Alejandro

I don’t think using such a misleading title is “perfectly ok”.

And yet, here you are defending it as rhetoric. Sure, buddy.

Alejandro
Alejandro
6 years ago

I feel like I should frame this on my wall for being the Platonic Ideal of Creepery. Do you even see yourself, Alejandro? When you start quibbling on the exact line between rape and sexual assault, that’s… questionable.

ROFL….So let me see if I got this right, do you think a man who pulls out his penis in the presence of a woman just raped her??

No wonder feminst claim that ne out of every five women will get raped in her lifetime or some complete BS like that. They obviously define rape as “anything sexual I don’t like”.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
6 years ago

Oh sure, because “just pull out your dick and put it in her hands” is definitely the end of sexual assault that shit promoted, no possible way was there anything in there about how to put it in other parts of her without getting permission first. PUAs would never rape, only commit sexual assault!

Those are the same crime in this state btw.

And the only people who use criminal offenses in rhetoric are people who mean that the person/group is promoting/doing something that they consider to be X crime, or a synonym thereof. E.g. “pro-lifers” calling everyone at planned parenthood murderers or “baby killers”, or Elam calling feminists child abusers — both amount to “this thing you do results in X crime, thus you are committing X crime”.

But hey, it’s just rhetoric man, it’s all cool.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
6 years ago

I should’ve hit refresh first, this one is as dumb as a box of rocks.

Ally S
6 years ago

‘No wonder feminst claim that ne out of every five women will get raped in her lifetime or some complete BS like that. They obviously define rape as “anything sexual I don’t like”.’

Well, that confirms it. You don’t know shit about feminist research on rape.

Alejandro
Alejandro
6 years ago

And the only people who use criminal offenses in rhetoric are people who mean that the person/group is promoting/doing something that they consider to be X crime, or a synonym thereof. E.g. “pro-lifers” calling everyone at planned parenthood murderers or “baby killers”, or Elam calling feminists child abusers — both amount to “this thing you do results in X crime, thus you are committing X crime”

Uh, yes, thats almost exaclty what I said earlier:

” It is clearly stated in the AVfM article that they consider them “child abusers” in the sense that they support policies that (according to them) lead to child abuse.”

You are a little slow, aren’t you?

weirwoodtreehugger
6 years ago

Alejandro,
Cornering someone, violating her personal space and whipping your dick out and putting it on her is sexual assault. It is a crime and it is morally wrong. That advice was part of the ‘always be escalating’ PUA philosophy so it is pretty clear the intent is for the reader to draw a line between point A which is sexual assault and point B which is an escalation to “sex” that isn’t sex at all but actually rape. That is why it was called a rape manual.

Learn critical thinking.

Alejandro
Alejandro
6 years ago

If they don’t read the article they will assume that means actual child abuse. I suspect that’s why AVFM put that in the headline. It’s an attempt by them to poison my reputation with a false accusation without leaving themselves open to libel suits by making a specific false charge in the article itself.

I agree and I think thats a very shitty and misleading thing to do.

In the same way, anyone who only reads the headlone about that “rape manual” will assume that they actually made a manual about forcing yourself on women or using duress to make a women have sex with you.

titianblue
titianblue
6 years ago

Well Alejandro is a charmer, isn’t he? Enjoying himself having a nice little theoretical argument about the semantics of rape vs sexual assault, whilst demonstrating all the empathy of a paper clip.

Adds Alejandro to that long list of unsafe people.

Alejandro
Alejandro
6 years ago

That advice was part of the ‘always be escalating’ PUA philosophy so it is pretty clear the intent is for the reader to draw a line between point A which is sexual assault and point B which is an escalation to “sex” that isn’t sex at all but actually rape.

I don’t get your point at all. If youdo end up having sex with the woman after that “move”, then the woman was obviously up for it. Is not sexual assault, but simply sexual activity. It can’t be rape unless the man used force after the woman resisted, or if the woman is so drunk that she doesn’t know what is going on.

This is a little off topic on the kickstarter thing, but this guy explained it very well:

http://www.blackdragonblog.com/2013/06/30/what-is-sexual-assault-and-what-is-not/

Alejandro
Alejandro
6 years ago

Adds Alejandro to that long list of unsafe people.

Dou you have dictionaries on the list of unsafe objects too? Because I don’t think they consider rape and sexual assault as the same thing either.

titianblue
titianblue
6 years ago

Alejandro, you are being disingenuous.

When a manual combines

Decide that you’re going to sit in a position where you can rub her leg and back. Physically pick her up and sit her on your lap. Don’t ask for permission. Be dominant. Force her to rebuff your advances.
Pull out your cock and put her hand on it. Remember, she is letting you do this because you have established yourself as a LEADER. Don’t ask for permission, GRAB HER HAND, and put it right on your dick.

with

Get creative and really think about all the different locations you can get alone after hours. Is there an isolated beach nearby? Great, go put a couple beach towels in the trunk of you car. Do the seats of your car lay down? Great. Have keys to your office after-hours? Fan-fucking-tastic! And of course you can always try to go to her place (but then you give up a tremendous amount of logistical control, so tread carefully.)

and you really claim not to see that this is proposing coercion instead of consent? Yep, it’s true, you really are a rape-apologist asswipe.

pallygirl
pallygirl
6 years ago

It can’t be rape unless the man used force after the woman resisted, or if the woman is so drunk that she doesn’t know what is going on.

So in your little universe, if a male threatens a female but doesn’t use physical force, it’s not rape?

May all your floors be covered in lego blocks, you’re a rape apologist as well as a sexual assault apologist.

titianblue
titianblue
6 years ago

It can’t be rape unless the man used force after the woman resisted, or if the woman is so drunk that she doesn’t know what is going on.

Oh, so a woman has to RESIST for it to be rape. Glad we cleared that up. Silly me, thinking that rape was sex without consent. That the mere absence of willing, free and capable consent made it rape. /sarcasm

Really, Alejandro, you have come on here to mansplain rape on a blog where a number of the commenters are rape survivors? You pisspot of an asswipe of a carbuncle on the ass of the owrld!

titianblue
titianblue
6 years ago

Note to self: bookmark this page to point to, next time some misogynist argues that everyone knows what rape is and that campaigns like “Don’t be that guy” are not needed.

titianblue
titianblue
6 years ago

Dou you have dictionaries on the list of unsafe objects too? Because I don’t think they consider rape and sexual assault as the same thing either.

Dear gods, you really are pathetic.

tigtog
6 years ago
Reply to  titianblue

I note that Alejandro has so far chosen to ignore the boxcutters example in the list of AVfM lies intended to make feminists look bad.

Alejandro
Alejandro
6 years ago

Oh, so a woman has to RESIST for it to be rape. Glad we cleared that up. Silly me, thinking that rape was sex without consent.

If I am touching a woman and she makes no attempt to resist in any way, how on earth can that be considered rape? Am I suppossed to stop and ask her to sign something saying that she agrees to sex for it not to be considered rape?

Really, Alejandro, you have come on here to mansplain rape on a blog where a number of the commenters are rape survivors?

Seeing how easy the word “rape” gets thrown around here, it would not surprise me if all female comenters considered themselves victims of rape in one way or another.

weirwoodtreehugger
6 years ago

and you really claim not to see that this is proposing coercion instead of consent? Yep, it’s true, you really are a rape-apologist asswipe.

If I could put the word ‘this!’ in big flashing red lights I would.

Listen Alejandro you disgusting piece of shit rape apologist, isolating someone and pushing yourself on her until she gives into sex out of fear that you will become violent if she says no is rape. It is coercive.

You still haven’t even agreed that sexual assault is immoral. I don’t even have words for how terrible you are.

And no I’m not clicking on whatever shitty blog that is you linked to. I know what it is and is not legally (and morally) sexual assault and the quotes that Titianblue provided qualify. It’s really creepy that you have rape apologia links ready to go.

Do the whole world a favor and never, ever allow yourself to be alone with a woman. If you can’t figure out that sexual assault is wrong and sex without clear consent is rape, you are definitely not a safe person to be alone with.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
6 years ago

*bangs head on wall* Alejando, Alejando! *shakes head* Buddy, calling me slow isn’t going to win you any points around here, nor is negging going to work, nice try though.

Since you apparently fail at nuance (color me surprised) —

You: they accused him of supporting policies that lead to child abuse, not of committing child abuse
Me: they accused him of supporting policies that lead to child abuse, which is, to them, the same as committing child abuse

See this difference here? Where you say they weren’t accusing him of child abuse and I said that when people use that sort of rhetoric, yep, they’re accusing people of the criminal act in question (in this case, they accused David of child abuse).

Now, onto your inability to understand what rape is. Seriously, I know you’re dense, but you can’t figure out how non-consensual sex can occur with a sober person without the person resisting? I mean, do you live in a bubble universe that lacks weapons and threats?

titianblue
titianblue
6 years ago

If I am touching a woman and she makes no attempt to resist in any way, how on earth can that be considered rape? Am I suppossed to stop and ask her to sign something saying that she agrees to sex for it not to be considered rape?

I see, you’re one of those type of rapists. The “but she never said no” types. Ok, so she was frozen on fear or revulsion or she was trying to go along in the hope that it would be over soon and you wouldn’t become violent. But hey, she didn’t resist so you could pretend it wasn’t rape at all.

How about you fjust ucking check that she’s actually enjoying what you’re doing, you parasite!

titianblue
titianblue
6 years ago

Because in Alejandro’s world, actually just saying “You enjoying this, lover?” is like getting her to sign a 60 page legally binding contract.

titianblue
titianblue
6 years ago

I’m going back to the other thread to talk about marine mammals (the nice ones) because my contempt for Alejandro is threatening to eat through my keyboard …

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
6 years ago

Marine mammals like the sea pig?

(Nota bene: I am well aware the sea pig is not a pig, or a mammal, or even a vertebrate)

titianblue
titianblue
6 years ago

Brilliant video – I love True Facts.

Alejandro
Alejandro
6 years ago

Sigh. This is what happens when a bunch of women and male feminist try to make sens of PUA advice. They fail to understand even the most basic concepts.

The reason why PUA advice men to isolate women is not so they will be afraid of saying no, but because women do not want to be seen as sluts in front of their friends nor they want to get a bad reputation in their social circle, so a woman is far more likely to accept your advances if other people can’t see her. Anyone with the slightest experience with women knows that fact. In fact, one of the core PUA concepts is that you need to generate attraction AND comfort with a woman in order to make her want to have sex with you, which is completely the opossite of scaring her.

Another fact is that, generally, women do like dominant men. You can complain about it all you want, but it is true. Women are usually not attracted to the submissive guy that verballly ask her if he can kiss her, or worse, just stays there and waits for the woman to make a move like it happens in hollywood films. They do prefer the guy who is bold and confident and doesn’t ask permission for every single thing he wants to do. Again, this is a fact. If you disagree with this you are either a 14 year old virgin or live in a different universe.

The PUA manual advice should be read in that context. While I agree some things are creepy, the truth is most of his general advice WILL work. And I think most feminist know this deep down, even if they don’t admit it. The guy who goes out and boldly hits on women is going to end up being far more succesfull with women than the guy who is too scared to make a move.

Because in Alejandro’s world, actually just saying “You enjoying this, lover?” is like getting her to sign a 60 page legally binding contract

Your idiotic logic is not even self consistent. How do you know that te woman did not say “yes, I am enjoying it” merely out of fear, like you suggested above?

The “she only had sex with him because she was afraid he would be violent if she wouldn’t” argument could be used to turn ANYTHING into a rape (see, this is exactly what MRA mean when the talk about feminist trying to define everything as rape). Unless the guy actually threatened the woman, there is no basis for it.

And yes, I agree using threats also counts as rape, and that sexual assault is wrong.

kittehserf
6 years ago

Wow, so being too scared to resist or say no is all it takes for it to be Not Rape in Alejandro’s tiny mind.

Skeletons and closets, I’m thinkng.

kittehserf
6 years ago

Oh, and of course Alejandro McRaperson knows what women think and feel soooo much better than actual women know what we think and feel.

titianblue
titianblue
6 years ago

And now Alejandro mansplains women to women…

Because of course he knows better than the actual women what their desires and preferences are, even though he can’t tell whether he’s not raping one unless she has signed a legal document. All women being strangely predictable monliths whilst simultaneously inscrutable.

Your idiotic logic is not even self consistent.

Nope. You are the one with no logic. And no empathy. And no ethics.

And yes, I agree using threats also counts as rape, and that sexual assault is wrong.

Are you expecting cookies for this?

titianblue
titianblue
6 years ago

The guy who goes out and boldly hits on women is going to end up being far more succesfull with women than the guy who is too scared to make a move.

No shit, Sherlock! A guy who actually talks to women will be more successful with them than one too scared to? Damn, we’re in the presence of brilliance, her, folks!

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
6 years ago

Ok, wow. We’ve gone from putting your dick in a woman’s hand as sexual assault (congrats, everyone here can agree on something) to how women really want that sort of thing. And how, just how! am I supposed to know if she says she’s enjoying it because she is, or because she’s afraid of me?!

Well, if she climbs atop your dung ball, she wants your alpha self. No wait, that’s dung beetles…

titianblue
titianblue
6 years ago

And Alejandro, just saying something is “a fact” and “it’s true” – doesn’t make it so. Unfounded and unproven claims are just that – unfounded and unproven. Moron.

titianblue
titianblue
6 years ago

If you disagree with this you are either a 14 year old virgin or live in a different universe.

Hahahahahaha!

Alejandro
Alejandro
6 years ago

Does anyone really want to argue that submissive men are more attractive to women than dominant men, or you just want to argue for the shake of it?

titianblue
titianblue
6 years ago

And how, just how! am I supposed to know if she says she’s enjoying it because she is, or because she’s afraid of me?!

Exactly. Alejandro prefers to just continue without asking, preferably after he’s isolated her, and assume that, unless she physically fights him off, she’s just fine with it. So much easier for him that way.

titianblue
titianblue
6 years ago

Does anyone really want to argue that submissive men are more attractive to women than dominant men, or you just want to argue for the shake of it?

Neither. We would like you to grasp that women are individual human beings with individual likes, dislikes, wishes and preferences. And should be respected and treated as such.

I know that’s a lot for your narrow little mind to grasp. Take some time and think about it. As long as you like. We won’t worry if we don’t hear from you for a while. Or ever again, really.

scott1139
scott1139
6 years ago

Am I supposed to stop and ask her to sign something saying that she agrees to sex for it not to be considered rape?

I think you should show a copy of this comment thread to any person you’re about to have sex with. That way, said person will be aware of your questionable ideas regarding consent.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
6 years ago

Hm, that depends, what are we shaking? Because my fish really don’t like having their tanks shaken.

Ah, never mind. No, I’m not willing to concede that you know what all women like WHEN WOMEN ARE TELLING YOU THAT YOU’RE WRONG.

I mean shit, I might as well insist that pecuniums love mangos, that they don’t is a feminist lie.

I just can’t take you seriously, you hurt my brain too much. Also, I think I just heard the door! I did! Later troll boy, men with ethics have arrived!

Ally S
6 years ago

How do you know that te woman did not say “yes, I am enjoying it” merely out of fear, like you suggested above?

THERE’S NO 100% CERTAIN WAY OF TELLING IN EVERY FUCKING SITUATION BUT IT’S BETTER THAN FUCKING ASSUMING THAT SHE’S OKAY WITHOUT EVEN TRYING TO FUCKING CHECK UP ON HER YOU CREEPY RAPE APOLOGIST PIECE OF SHIT AND IN GENERAL ONE SHOULD ALWAYS FUCKING ERR ON THE SIDE OF CAUTION HOW IS THIS SO FUCKING HARD TO UNDERSTAND?

:: sigh ::

Alejandro
Alejandro
6 years ago

Alejandro prefers to just continue without asking

Verbally asking is a huge turn off for most women. Plus you can usually tell if a woman is up for it from body language alone.

preferably after he’s isolated her

Uh…no…I am going to get naked and have sex with her in public right in front of everyone. Idiot.

and assume that, unless she physically fights him off, she’s just fine with it.

You mean the way that pretty much every normal human being has sex?

Seriously, are you 12? Have you ever been in a party, or a club or any place where people hook up? Normal people do indeed just start making out, touching and assuming that the other part is fine with it unless the specifically resist. What you describe as rape basically the way everyone does it.

Ally S
6 years ago

The “she only had sex with him because she was afraid he would be violent if she wouldn’t” argument could be used to turn ANYTHING into a rape (see, this is exactly what MRA mean when the talk about feminist trying to define everything as rape). Unless the guy actually threatened the woman, there is no basis for it.

That situation is an example of ONE kind of rape. One fucking kind. It can’t be used to turn “everything” into rape. It simply implies that women can still not consent even if they aren’t threatened or forced.

titianblue
titianblue
6 years ago

And it doesn’t even enter his bigoted head that some women may prefer neither dominant men nor submissive men but actually women. Or no one at all.

Ally S
6 years ago

No, obviously we lesbians are non-existent space creatures.

titianblue
titianblue
6 years ago

Just when I thought Alejandro couldn’t be anymore stupid:

Verbally asking is a huge turn off for most women.