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a voice for men MRA

Is A Voice for Men's conference kaput? Doubletree says "they are not booked with us." [UPDATE: Elam says they have another venue.]

carwheels

Woah! Just wanted to pass along this news from the Motor City Muckraker:

A controversial conference for a men’s rights group in Detroit appears to be in jeopardy after a fallout with downtown’s Hilton DoubleTree, which planned to host the event from June 26-28.

The inaugural conference at the DoubleTree has been canceled for unknown reasons, and organizers of the first International Conference on Men’s Issues haven’t said yet whether it will be moved to another hotel and conference center.

“At this time, they are not booked with us,” Larry Brown, manager of the DoubleTree, said this morning. He declined to elaborate on the cancelation.

There’s nothing on A Voice for Men about this latest development, though Esmay hinted during his Fox News appearance that they were possibly going to reconsider the Doubletree. But as of right now, AVFM is still selling tickets, as if the Doubletree convention is still a going concern.

Are they going to try to book the convention elsewhere? Or are they going to take the $29,000 they raised for “security” and, I dunno, send Esmay to a better stylist?

One other, ah, interesting detail in the Motor City Muckraker story:

When asked Tuesday whether the event would be moved, an organizer responded: “The DoubleTree GM (general manager) actually said that he has ‘feminist phobia’ and sort of laughed but in a nervous way. So its being discussed.”

It’s questionable whether this conversation ever occurred because the general manager is a woman.

Yeah. Seems like a lot of things about this convention have been pretty questionable from the start.

UPDATE: Well, one thing’s a bit clearer now, though. I called the Detroit Police and they confirmed that the Doubletree did indeed report to them that it had received threats. Who sent them, we still don’t know, but I think we can all agree that whether the threats came from some misguided feminist or “progressive” or from an MRA trying to stir shit and make feminists look bad, whoever made the threatening calls is a shithead who deserves to face the legal consequences for what they did.

UPDATE 2: According to the Detroit News, Elam says they’ve got another venue:

“We have scheduled another venue and will make an announcement on the site this evening,” group founder Paul Elam said in an email Wednesday.

So far no announcement on AVFM; I’ll post about it when there is one.

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Lea
Lea
7 years ago

They’re all fiercely intelligent and independent women who don’t want the power that comes with claiming victimhood status.

This? This right here is comedy gold.

Liquid fucking comedy gold.

Lea
Lea
7 years ago
Emmy Rae
Emmy Rae
7 years ago

Not that I actually define myself as a gender feminist, but I’m guessing MRAs or M(H!)RAs would define me that way, so.

Cliff Pervocracy
Cliff Pervocracy
7 years ago

They’re all fiercely intelligent and independent women who don’t want the power that comes with claiming victimhood status.
I have a technical question, here.

What should I do if someone actually victimizes me? I’ll pick something apolitical here: say someone steals my wallet.

I’m a fiercely intelligent and independent person, now. I’m not looking for a power trip. Does this mean that I’m required to not tell anyone my wallet is missing, not have any emotions about missing my wallet, not try to get my wallet back from the thief, and not replace the things in my wallet?

Because if I did any of those, I’d be acknowledging that I was a victim of something, and that’s terrible.

sarah
sarah
7 years ago
Reply to  David Futrelle

Did they address the letter? Because I called the hotel the Sunday and Saturday after the letter was posted on AVfM, and they completely denied threats being made and sending the letter

And the police were saying no threats were reported last Monday.

grumpycatisagirl
7 years ago

You should check out their articles, videos etc.

Yes, none of us here are familiar with anything any of those “honey badgers” have written or said. JudgyBitch did not recently appear in a comments thread here herself to treat us to the most nonsensical unintelligible ramblings I’ve ever seen.

Lea
Lea
7 years ago

What sort of horrible person would threaten people for working in or staying at a hotel?

Whoever did it, I hope they get caught ASAP.

Mike Buchanan
7 years ago
Reply to  David Futrelle

David

You write:

“Mike, you do realize you’re posting on a blog that is devoted to alerting as many people as possible to the terrible ideas of MRAs? That basically every single post here, aside from the ones about kitties and Meredity Monk and so on, is based on the simple notion that the best way to defeat the MRM is to expose its terrible ideas to as many people as possible?”

Of course I realise that, but your premise is laughable. Why would radfems want to pressure the Detroit Hilton into cancelling the conference if they wanted to expose its ‘terrible ideas’? They’d surely want to make every effort to disseminate videos of the speeches etc. I want people to be exposed to facts and arguments they’re clearly not being exposed to on your blog, from the evidence of your comments stream.

Firstly, I suggest you need a reality check here. YOU WILL NEVER DEFEAT THE MHRM, EVEN AT THIS STAGE. It will only get stronger over time. States assault the human rights of men (and boys) to advantage women (and girls). The evidence for this lies in every life outcome you could mention. The following are just a few examples, off the top of my head (situation in the UK, I believe the US is worse in some areas, not so bad in others):

– male / female suicide differential in the UK has increased from 1.9:1 to 3.5:1 in the past 30 years. It’s the #1 cause of death of young men
– fathers denied access to children, yet the state forces them to pay maintenance on threat of imprisonment (a driver of suicide)
– absence of support for male victims of domestic violence (a driver of suicide)
– absence of support for homeless men, driving male suicide (<10% of homeless people are women)
– discrimination in education (e.g. Brunel female students £20,000+ pa additional grants for having the 'correct' genitalia, a highly feminised education system ensures 60% of university students are women…)
– all-women candidate shortlists for parliament, although the proportion of women in the House of Commons already greatly exceeds the proportion of applicants who are female
– discrimination in employment (quotas for women – well, in the well-paid pleasant lines of work, anyway)
– government bullying major companies into increasing the number of women on their boards despite KNOWING one consequence will be corporate financial decline
– paternity fraud has long been a criminal offence in the UK, not one woman has ever been convicted of the offence – the justice system treats women as having no higher moral agency than small children
– FGM is banned across the developed world, MGM commonplace (and far more so in the US than the UK)

If the MRM's ideas are 'terrible', why has nobody challenged J4MB's evidence bases? Why has nobody accused me of lying? By stark contrast, can you explain to me why not one of the many feminists in the link below (including Caroline Criado-Perez, Kat Banyard, Julie Bindle) have ever responded to our showing they were demonstrably lying, by retracting those lies? Lies are the bedrock of feminism, that's why.

http://j4mb.wordpress.com/our-public-challenges-to-feminists/

hellkell
hellkell
7 years ago

YOU WILL NEVER DEFEAT THE MHRM, EVEN AT THIS STAGE.

You’re right. We won’t, you assholes will do the job yourselves. You fools cannot stop shooting yourselves in the foot.

titianblue
titianblue
7 years ago

By stark contrast, can you explain to me why not one of the many feminists in the link below (including Caroline Criado-Perez, Kat Banyard, Julie Bindle) have ever responded to our showing they were demonstrably lying, by retracting those lies?

That would be because they weren’t lying, sweetie. And because you have all the importance in the world of a collapsed souffle so they’re not going to even bother responding to your stupidity..

hellkell
hellkell
7 years ago

By stark contrast, can you explain to me why not one of the many feminists in the link below (including Caroline Criado-Perez, Kat Banyard, Julie Bindle) have ever responded to our showing they were demonstrably lying, by retracting those lies? Lies are the bedrock of feminism, that’s why.

Because you are of no more importance than a gnat. No one emails a gnat.

hellkell
hellkell
7 years ago

ninja’d by titianblue.

sarah
sarah
7 years ago
Reply to  Lea

I, too, am very interested in who made these threats. I wouldn’t put it past any group to have some crazies who would do such things, but to make threats after it has been alleged that they have already been made (even if they were not substantiated or reported) seems even more crazy to me.

titianblue
titianblue
7 years ago

The following are just a few examples, off the top out of my head arse

FTFY

titianblue
titianblue
7 years ago

@Sarah, no ableism, please. Nasties, not crazies.

Lea
Lea
7 years ago

women who don’t want the power that comes with claiming victimhood status.

Allow me to translate:

“Women who keep their damn mouths shut about what men do to them and tell other women they deserve it anyway.”

Can you imagine anyone worse than Mike? He’s claiming that victims, like the little girls and boys I met through CASA and DCBS for being raped and abused, were just power hungry. They weren’t ripping out their own hearts when they came forward to tell the truth about what had happened to them at the hands of loved ones they trusted, usually only to be called liars. No, they were after the “power that comes with claiming victimhood status”.

When POC complain about institutional racism and microaggressions, he’s insinuating that they are only after power, not an end to inequality and abuse.

Either that, or he only thinks that is the case when women fight back against abuse and inequality.

But he’s not a misogynist posterior pimple. Shucks no.

Cliff Pervocracy
Cliff Pervocracy
7 years ago

YOU WILL NEVER DEFEAT THE MHRM, EVEN AT THIS STAGE.
Okay, so… what are you so worked up about? Sounds like you’ve got nothing to prove. Why argue petty details with the opposition when you’re winning in a landslide?

It is weird that the landslide winners can’t get one damn conference together, but what would I know about landslides.

Lea
Lea
7 years ago

they completely denied threats being made and sending the letter

And the police were saying no threats were reported last Monday.

So, we still don’t even have a definitive answer on whether or not threats happened?

😛

weirwoodtreehugger
7 years ago

Mikey,
Your points have been debunked many times before. I’m not sure why you’re claiming we haven’t bothered to refute MRA talking points.

Go read the thread about the Mankind Initiative video. There are links showing that law enforcement actually does take allegations of DV against men seriously.

It’s also well known by now that when fathers actually seek primary custody they are just as likely to get it as mothers. Mothers are more likely to have primary custody because fathers are less likely to seek.

Also, how can you claim to be for justice for boys while simultaneously arguing that fathers should have the right to abandon their children and not contribute financially to their upbringing? Sure, many children with deadbeat dads are girls and we all how much you hate them, but some of the children abandoned by their fathers are boys. If you care about boys at all you should take the position that both parents have a duty to raise their children to the best of their abilities.

It’s almost like you care more hurting women and girls than helping men and boys. Typical MRA.

Lea
Lea
7 years ago

You know, when I think of people with power, the word “victim” never comes to mind.

The only people over whom a victim might hold power is a perpetrator afraid of being busted.

When people tell you who they are, I think you should believe them.

That’s why these Mens Rape Advocates are so desperate to silence women* through lies, harassment, doxxing and demonizing. If all the women MRAs had ever victimized ever came forward and named names, it really would be a dark day for the MRM, wouldn’t it?

*Yes Mike, your precious movement is all about censorship. It’s a movement based on calling women liars who probably had it coming anyway and trying to threaten them into silence. You’re an abuser’s support group, not a human rights group.

jayemgriffin
7 years ago

No! Not a collapsed souffle! Be careful, titianblue, them’s fighting words.

titianblue
titianblue
7 years ago

So, if the police are now confirming that they were notified of the death threats, the next question is when were they notified and by whom? Given that they were denying it over the weekend.

Gary T
Gary T
7 years ago

Radfem:

Shorthand slang for Radical Feminist.
Generally describing those who purport to be for equal rights for all, but actually campaign, lobby and agitate for superior or precedential preference in legal treatment for women over men.

sarah
sarah
7 years ago

Fair enough. As someone who has had to deal with mental health issues, I should know to use more sensitive language

Ire
Ire
7 years ago

Hello Mr. Buchanan,

I’m a regular reader of this blog but it’s only the second time I’ve commented. I just popped in because I keep getting weirded out about your comments on government grants. I’m from Mexico, which is even less progressive than the US, let’s not even consider the UK. My mother is a linguistics professor and one of the four people in the world studying and recording the indigenous language Cora. She had government aid during her PhD and has had numerous other grants throughout her career.

When I was born she kept on teaching. My father is also a linguist, who ALSO had government aid during his PhDs and afterwards. He never gave up work either. He specializes in semiotics.

They are divorced and my mother never asked for child support legally, though my father did pay it until I turned 25, as required by law here.

I guess you could argue these are isolated cases but… I’m honestly not the only child of my generation or among my parents’ friends with this sort of family life, so it just baffles when people talk about the academic establishment the way you do. It’s just not been a common experience for me or the people I know

It is especially strange to me that you seem to imply that grant money is wasted if people don’t pursue the career they studied. Lots of grad students make tons of contributions DURING the time they are getting their degree. The work they help accomplish during their PhDs or Masters is not gone. Furthermore, it’s strange to me that you seem to think people don’t leave a profession for a couple of years after childbirth and then come back to it.

I don’t know… it just seems like you haven’t spoken to many researchers.

fruitloopsie
fruitloopsie
7 years ago

I love this show

http://youtu.be/HZxZWqhFCvw

Tulgey Logger
Tulgey Logger
7 years ago

I get the sense that Mikey B doesn’t speak to, let alone listen to, many people outside the Misogynist Honking Rage Association bubble. Has he brought up the Frankfurt School or cultural marxism yet? I bet he has.

Anyway, I must admit I’m kind of disappointed that Elam was telling the truth, at least insofar as the fact that threats were reported is true. Although the constant terrible circus this whole thing is entertaining, it’s unfortunate that anyone gave Elam any kind of external legitimacy by bothering to threaten him or his conference, not to metion how fucked up it is to send people death threats.

Ally S
7 years ago

Thank you, Gary, for also demonstrating that you have no fucking clue what “radfem” means.

sarah
sarah
7 years ago
Reply to  fruitloopsie

Considering it’s been nearly two weeks since threats were alleged, I would hesitate to say they *have been* telling the truth, even if threats were reported since the police and hotel originally denied them.

sarah
sarah
7 years ago

I talked to the general manager, and left a message for the sales manager, who never called me back.

WhatIsThisGravitasOfWhichYouSpeak
WhatIsThisGravitasOfWhichYouSpeak
7 years ago

“Radical feminism is a perspective within feminism that focuses on the hypothesis of patriarchy as a system of power that organizes society into a complex of relationships based on the assertion that male supremacy oppresses women. Radical feminism aims to challenge and overthrow patriarchy by opposing standard gender roles and oppression of women and calls for a radical reordering of society”

Two seconds googling. Wanna try again, guys?

weirwoodtreehugger
7 years ago

What would we ever do without Gary graciously mansplaining feminism to us.

hellkell
hellkell
7 years ago

I thought Gary T’s gross self was banned. Maybe that was just wishful thinking.

sparky
sparky
7 years ago

Before attacking an ideological opponent, one should understand what their ideology and philosophy is. Otherwise you just end up looking like some kind of knee jerk reactionary.

Just saying.

And wasn’t Caroline Criado-Perez the woman who wanted to get a woman on one of Britain’s currency notes and got a lot of death and rape threats for it? How does that make her a liar?

paul
7 years ago

I can’t say why AVFM hasn’t said what’s going on, but I imagine they are finalizing details about the new venue and don’t want to release anything public until it’s secured and the ink is dry on the deal. If they are smart, they will keep the information to attendees only so they don’t have to deal with more threats and protests and people harassing the venue with pointless requests for information in an attempt to badger them into shutting it down.

As for why it was cancelled, likely the venue got cold feet after threats (now confirmed), or they have simply garnered more interest than they expected and have decided to move to a larger venue instead of not selling tickets.

A little patience and likely all this will be answered in a few days. I very much doubt the cancellation is for any of the reasons you are hoping for.

You may now commence calling me mysoginistic scum and ridiculing everything I stand for.

hellkell
hellkell
7 years ago

Paul, way to stick the flounce. When you leave, you should stay gone, or else people will think you’re totally full of shit.

jayemgriffin
7 years ago

Commence? Dude, have you been paying attention? This is a blog specifically dedicated to ridiculing everything you stand for.

Lea
Lea
7 years ago

people will think you’re totally full of shit.

😀

To be fair, we already knew he was. This is just the giggle sprinkle of the joke sundae that is Paul’s credibility.

Schadrach
Schadrach
7 years ago

@paul: I’d guess the same. As far as keeping any new location to only attendees, I doubt they will. One the one hand, they don’t want to hide, because the publicity does them nothing but good, and people deciding “I hate your political perspective so much that I’m going to threaten violence against you and anyone who dares to let you speak” is certainly a wide and deep well of publicity. On another, it depends on how likely they are to have to relocate again — relocating in a pinch is never fun. On still another, what would stop whatever group of “misguided” feminists felt the need to make the threats from buying a ticket to stay apprised of the current location, then disseminating the address?

LBT (with an open writeathon!)

Hey guys, I won’t be on later tonight, but if any of you folks see katz, tell her I’ve posted her story about Lilith and Cain!

RE: Mike Buchanan

radfems – and their male poodles

Well, damn. I guess I have to tell Fibinachi I can’t be a White Knight Mangina in our RP anymore, I’ve been demoted to poodle.

On the plus side, this means I won’t shed on the furniture, and I’ll be a vicious attacker of pests! Also I will be adorable and fluffy.

They’re all fiercely intelligent and independent women who don’t want the power that comes with claiming victimhood status.

That’s funny, since I’m a male victim of sexual abuse, and come from a family where other people were victims of sexual abuse. Our intelligence and independence has nothing to do with our history of molestation, because children get molested regardless of their personal qualities. Why are you correlating the two?

RE: Paul

I can’t say why AVFM hasn’t said what’s going on, but I imagine they are finalizing details about the new venue and don’t want to release anything public until it’s secured and the ink is dry on the deal.

As someone who has spoken and been selling at cons for years, I would want as much information as possible if my venue suddenly dropped out mere WEEKS before the con. People travel huge distances and pay substantial money to attend conventions and groups; these guys really aren’t gaining anything by keeping stuff to themselves. If I were a speaker or seller at this con, I’d be PISSED.

paul
7 years ago

hellkell. I said I was done with the previous chat in the other thread. I never said I was gone. That’s just wishful thinking on your part.

However I won’t base myself to the common denominator here and respond with insults as seems to be the standard practice here 🙂

weirwoodtreehugger
7 years ago

You may now commence calling me mysoginistic scum and ridiculing everything I stand for.

Wait a minute. In the other thread you were claiming not to be an MRA. Just someone neutral who happened upon this site and were appalled by what big meanies we are.

You sure dropped that pretense quickly.

Weak inconsistent trolling + failure to stick to several flounces.

I’m giving you a -3/10 so far.

paul
7 years ago

@LBT — you seem to have missed my point. Just because the information hasn’t been made public about the cancellation, doesn’t mean it hasn’t been made privately to people who are already going. We do live in the age of mailing lists after all.

hellkell
hellkell
7 years ago

Paul: That’s OK, you’ll leave eventually, one way or another. You assholes always do.

paul
7 years ago

@weirwoodtreehugger — I’m still not claiming to be an MRA, I just think they have every right to hold their conference, and I also don’t think they are ‘hate groups’ as the evidence supporting that claim is flimsy and mostly based on quotemining.

You guys love to make assumptions!

hellkell
hellkell
7 years ago

Whatever, Spock. Fuck off.