Woah! Just wanted to pass along this news from the Motor City Muckraker:
A controversial conference for a men’s rights group in Detroit appears to be in jeopardy after a fallout with downtown’s Hilton DoubleTree, which planned to host the event from June 26-28.
The inaugural conference at the DoubleTree has been canceled for unknown reasons, and organizers of the first International Conference on Men’s Issues haven’t said yet whether it will be moved to another hotel and conference center.
“At this time, they are not booked with us,” Larry Brown, manager of the DoubleTree, said this morning. He declined to elaborate on the cancelation.
There’s nothing on A Voice for Men about this latest development, though Esmay hinted during his Fox News appearance that they were possibly going to reconsider the Doubletree. But as of right now, AVFM is still selling tickets, as if the Doubletree convention is still a going concern.
Are they going to try to book the convention elsewhere? Or are they going to take the $29,000 they raised for “security” and, I dunno, send Esmay to a better stylist?
One other, ah, interesting detail in the Motor City Muckraker story:
When asked Tuesday whether the event would be moved, an organizer responded: “The DoubleTree GM (general manager) actually said that he has ‘feminist phobia’ and sort of laughed but in a nervous way. So its being discussed.”
It’s questionable whether this conversation ever occurred because the general manager is a woman.
Yeah. Seems like a lot of things about this convention have been pretty questionable from the start.
UPDATE: Well, one thing’s a bit clearer now, though. I called the Detroit Police and they confirmed that the Doubletree did indeed report to them that it had received threats. Who sent them, we still don’t know, but I think we can all agree that whether the threats came from some misguided feminist or “progressive” or from an MRA trying to stir shit and make feminists look bad, whoever made the threatening calls is a shithead who deserves to face the legal consequences for what they did.
UPDATE 2: According to the Detroit News, Elam says they’ve got another venue:
“We have scheduled another venue and will make an announcement on the site this evening,” group founder Paul Elam said in an email Wednesday.
So far no announcement on AVFM; I’ll post about it when there is one.
I’ve been sexually assaulted before and I didn’t resist or even show visible discomfort. But I complied with him because he was my tae kwon do teacher and I had no say in objecting to what he did to me. I was powerless. Are you going to fucking call that something without any basis? Go fuck yourself, troll.
Ok, I specify: Most women prefer dominant males. Not all of them of course. There is usually the excpetion to the rule, bust the vast majority of them do. That I can tell from my own experience with women, from the comments of plenty of female friends, and from the experience of literally thousand of men who have said that their results with women got better after they gained confidence and started to act more dominant with them. You can can me creep and scream until you are blue, but you guys know this is true. Feel free to keep in denial if it makes you feel better.
@Alejandro, citation needed. Because anecdotes aren’t data. And “literally thousands”. Really? You do know what “literally” actually means, right?
So an independent peer reviewed study, please. Because otherwise it’s just PUA propaganda that you’ve swallowed, sweetie.
“Verbally asking is a huge turn off for most women.”
Dude, you must know some damn weird women. Being asked is a huge turn *on*.
Being raped, not so much. Having sex when you really don’t want to is creepy and nasty and no fun whatsoever.
Your sex life is a scary place. If it doesn’t exist in your imagination, which I suspect it might.
Excuse me?
Oh, like those are the only choices? You’re almost as stupid about men as you are about women. Let this burst your brain: I don’t like either in a man.
Verbally asking is a huge turn off for most women. Plus you can usually tell if a woman is up for it from body language alone.
“Most women”? How many of the more-than-three-billion women this planet do you know, to make that assumption? I’m a woman. The idea of some man not even bothering to talk to me is disgusting.
Do we need to post this quote again Rapejandro?
Unless you are getting very clear verbal or non-verbal signals that this is welcome, it is in fact sexual assault. The idea of a man I don’t know picking me up and putting his dick in my hand without consent is fucking terrifying.
I take PUAs at their word. That’s why I know they are creepy and potentially rapists. By the way, Rhoosh the douche has admitted to raping a woman who was too drunk to consent.
This is utter nonsense. I do have some experience with women considering I am one and the majority of my good friends are women too. This isn’t the Victorian times. In most circles it is socially acceptable to hook up with a guy. The word ‘slut’ as a gendered insult is common but it usually has little to do with a woman having pre-marital sex. It’s used as a go to insult people use anytime a woman does something to them. You shouldn’t need to quickly isolate a woman from her friends to have sex if she is cool with one night stands in the first place.
Read the quote above again. Behavior like that does anything but generate comfort. It doesn’t generate attraction either because the goal is to not give her the opportunity to refuse in the first place.
I assure you I am neither 14 nor a virgin. There is a big difference between being pushy and forcing yourself on someone and waiting for non-verbal cues that a kiss is women. Most humans are adept enough at reading body language that they can tell when a kiss is wanted. PUA manuals encourage men to not take what the woman actually wants into account.
And no, woman aren’t usually attracted to “dominant” “alpha males.” I have had my share of casual hook ups. Every time it’s been with a guy who talked to me like an actual human being, not a blow up doll with a pulse. I find witty and interesting men attractive. I do not find sleazy pushy guys who violate boundaries attractive. Guys like that get nowhere with me. This isn’t something unusual. I don’t know any women who find guys like that attractive. And no, my friends aren’t uptight prudes.
Please stop pretending you know more women than women themselves do.
No. I’m not going to look for some imaginary hidden context. Not when the intentions of PUA are plain.
You agree the advice will creep most women out and you still think it’s ok to do it? Gross. No it doesn’t work. Not on most women. There’s a reason PUAs are mocked not just by feminists, but anyone else who isn’t one.
PUA tactics aren’t the only way. You’re acting as if there’s some sort of dichotomy between using sleazy PUA manuals and sitting alone in a corner. That’s nonsense. There’s also the treat women like human beings option. It works very well. Better than PUA.
If PUA works so well, how come you’re not swimming in hb10’s instead of on a feminist blog defending sexual assault?
Go away Alejando, you’re not just typing words here, you’re hurting people.
I would accuse you of being clueless, but you are willfully ignorant at best.
Just go away.
“Anyone with the slightest experience with women knows that fact”
And yet, real women are telling you that you are talking out of your front bottom.
You don’t see the problem, do you.
I was 14-years-old and he was a man in his 50s with far greater strength and agility than me. And on top of that he was my teacher. Do you know what a fucking power differential is?
“how exactly him being your taekwon teacher means you could not simply say: “I don’t want you to touch me that way.”?”
I’ll use small words. He teacher. He in charge. He stronger. He better at martial arts. Woman scared he kill her.
You fucknozzle.
Seriously, are you? Have you ever actually had consensual sex*? I think you’ll find that a lot of people actually say things during it. Sometimes quite loudly.
@Ally: he’s expanded his repertoire to survivor-blaming.
What a hero.
Have some fucking compassion for people who were assaulted in atypical ways, you asshole. We fucking exist. We matter. Stop talking over us and listen to what we have to say. We have been hurt, we have been assaulted, and we would never wish the same on anyone else. Learn to empathize or GTFO.
@Ally S, i’ve sent an email & asked David to ban Alejandro for that repulsive piece of victim blaming.
i am sorry about what happened to you and I’m sorry that this piece of fish-shit said that to you. Are you ok?
That PUA tactics work best on women who have most strongly socialised into not enforcing their boundaries when men test them is a feature, not a bug. “Negging”, “direct game”, “escalating kino”, “compliance momentum”, etc etc. are all about pushing to see if a woman will act the way you expect and not make a scene when you intrude on her social space or try to ignore her verbal and non-verbal resistance.
Please don’t patronise us by pretending we don’t understand your bullshit. It’s about treating women as interchangeable insertion points for your cock, and just like a teenage cracker looking for the easiest computer system to break into, you guys have specific ways of finding the low-hanging fruit – in this case, women who aren’t assertive enough to stand their ground when you try to invade their space or demean them, or whose self-esteem is tied up in male attention and who are willing to put up with your macho crap to get it.
No, I’m not feeling well. I had an anxiety attack earlier today. I made a mistake in trying to argue with this man because his words have inadvertently re-triggered my anxiety.
Listen, troll. Not everyone assaulted in ways that you can think of. There is a great diversity among SA survivors. Just because you might think it’s absurd doesn’t mean that what happened to us wasn’t real or didn’t matter. All that is required for a sexual act to be non-consensual is for one or more of the people involved in the act to be not consenting. That’s it. Threats, force, etc. are merely means of coercion and do not define the possibilities of sexual assault. Please just listen to victims and empathize with them. And support them. That’s all I ask.
Once again you are setting up a false dichotomy. How can we discuss which women prefer when you haven’t even properly established that every man fits into a dominant box or a submissive box. Normally when discussing sex I only see those terms applied to people into kink (and this might blow your mind but there are plenty of female doms and male subs who are very happy with their sexual relationships). They aren’t really blanket terms.
Again, there’s a difference between talking to and flirting with women and acting like a pushy creep.
Alejandro is banned for being a creepy rape apologist.
And I deleted his last comment which was directed at an individual commenter here and would have been enough for a ban all by itself.
I feel like I should bookmark this discussion as a case study in why PUA “philosophy” can be dangerous.
Thanks, David.
Ally, do you mind if I offer you a hug? You shouldn’t have had to go through that then, and you sure as fuck shouldn’t have to go through this now so some arsewipe can get his jollies arguing with women.
When I tackled David on Twitter about the MRA trolls hurting people, even though you guys obviously can handle them and mostly have fun doing so, this kind of situation is what I was talking about. These people are sociopaths and they don’t care who they hurt or how long it takes to get the reaction they’re after. They don’t deserve attention or blog space because they *always* abuse it. That’s what they are, abusers, pure and simple. Amusing to mock in small doses, dangerous in larger.
Although you guys do a wonderful job of deconstructing them. Brava.
If anyone wants me to delete any other comments of his I will be happy to do so.
Thank you, David. I was typing while you were taking action.
Ann, he wasn’t a sociopath. There are many sociopaths who understand their dangerous mental tendencies and actively ensure that they don’t harm anyone. He was an asshole, not a sociopath. Please don’t complicate this further by adding mental illness to the mix. It’s disrespectful to sociopaths who, despite their deficient capacity for empathy, are still capable of being kind.
All the jedi hugz you’d like, Ally.