Just a quick note to let you know that the protest against the AVFM Conference at the Doubletree in Detroit is happening right now. You can check the hashtag #NoMRA on Twitter for live updates. Here’s a Ms Magazine blog piece with more details.
I’ll have some thoughts on it all later.
Photo from @Katie_Speak on Twitter.
Hmm… not a chocolate fan, except Reese’s. Now I crave Dutch butter cookies.
They do sound good. Like Mint Slices but with less chocolate.
marinerachel, what everyone’s said. This is the fourth time, the fourth, he’s done this to you – you’ve zero reason to think he’s ever going to change.
The person you think he could be doesn’t exist, and never will. It’s an imagining of his good traits without any of the bad ones. It’s not who he is. You can’t change him, you can’t make him want to change – and he patently doesn’t want to change himself. He’s invested in being a controlling shit and validating himself by putting you down. He’s not right for you or anyone (though I can think of some MRAs who deserve him – two of a kind).
Hmm…*chews* crunchy, almost like cereal or a cracker, but the only real flavor you can taste is the chocolate. A bit like crunchy chocolate I guess? The mouth feel of a crunchy cracker, but the flavor of chocolate.
Mint Brussels are really nice. I love the crunch. An excellent cookie recommendation.
He could be the right person for me. It is in him. He choses not to be. That’s so much worse than incompatibility. He has absolute control over whether or not he is a good person, whether he harms others, and he chooses to do harm. That’s abhorrent.
He tried to absolve himself of guilt in a defensive fit, saying I was projecting my unhappiness with the dude I dated previously and that he himself hadn’t done a thing wrong aside from hurt my feelings by dumping me. In his honest moments when he’s feeling really down on himself, he’s in a ball, weeping, describing himself as emotionally abusive. Now that he’s angry, in defensive mode he’s denying the truth he himself has spoken.
The guy I dated before him was a shit. He was honest with me and himself though. He never gave me any real hope. While I didn’t deserve it, getting hurt was the natural consequence of engaging with a dude who fully disclosed to me that he would never give me what I needed, that we didnt want the same things and if we were going to be together it would be on his terms and I would have to settle. Yeah, I was sad and angry for a long time after that. I was nowhere near as hurt as I am by this one though. This one gave me immense hope and every reason to believe we were on the same page, wanted the same things, were determined to reach our shared goals together. I invested my everything in him. Then he just fucking quit. That, I don’t know if I can ever forgive. It’s tremendously bad behaviour and far more harmful than anything Mr. Assface who came before him (and he was an assface) did to me.
His choice not to be is the thing. I think the “could” sounds vanishingly small, because he’s not interested; he is interested in lying and hurting you.
You don’t need to think about forgiveness. If you feel that way sometime eventually, if it comes naturally, then fine, but right now? No way, you’re barely days into the process of getting away from Gobshite McSnotface and caring for yourself and getting help.
It looks like you’re making some progress towards putting the responsibility for his behavior on him. That’s a really good step.
Oh, he’s having a pity party for himself and inviting you to it. This is all part of the abuse cycle. All this behaviour is pulling your attention back onto him. He’s not being honest, because that would actually entail him seriously addressing his fucking abuse behaviours, and he’s not interested in doing that.
Honey, you need to invest your attention into you, to heal.
He doesn’t deserve you.
@marinerachel, yes. He *chose* not to be the person to make you happy. He has done over and over again and tbh I don’t think he’ll ever make a different choice. Believe that choice. Believe what he’s said. He’s made his decision, and that decision proves beyond a doubt he is not the one for you. This is the only thing he’s said you should believe. He is not your happy ending. *You* are your happy ending. Please, please focus on yourself and what you need right now. He has chosen to disassociate himself from your life. He has chosen to be something you leave behind. It’s the only good choice he’s made. You deserve so much better.
I sense that this guy is going to pull that sort of line all the goddamn time. I agree with everyone else who says that this is marinerachel time, not marinerachel’s stupid ex time. Try to eat, try to sleep, go to your psych appointment, and don’t worry about everything else.
One bit of funny: in his threatened, defensive, bravado-laden tantrums he’d say dreadful, awful things, none of which he meant, all of which were immature and stupid face-saving bullshit. He’s a super insecure guy who feels threatened when he gets challenged and therefore tries to intimidate. One attempt was he was going to unlawfully confine me in order to engage in social justice vigilantism which I had, obvs, told him I would inform the police of to prevent. Unless I’m unlawfully confined! Buh-ZING! Obviously, I had a few friends read that discussion over to determine whether it was something for me to be concerned about or just stupid, insecure blustering.
He’s very paranoid (part of being pitifully insecure) and was certain people would RUIN HIS CAREER/LIFE by lying about him. I drew attention to the fact they didnt have to lie – he had actually said some fucking heinous things, regardless of their sincerity, that constituted threats so maybe he should treat people a little better in order to cover his own ass. I had the discussion logs. He interpreted that as I was going to do so which is fucking ridiculous. The whole point of the matter was he DOES say monstrous things that he could be held legally accountable for but he WON’T because I know he doesn’t have it in him to follow through with these threats – he’s just an insecure child having a tantrum – and I’m a fucking saint who would take no pleasure in ruining his life, which he should be goddamn appreciative for but not count on from anyone else. All I’d have to do to compromise his personal life and education would be send discussion logs to his mom and medical school and “dox” him as it were. The whole point was not everyone is as kind as I so he should watch what he fucking says, even if he doesn’t care about the harm he causes.
Yes, I’m in love with the person whose left when you strip away all the bullshit. No, I couldn’t fucking bear another minute of his behaviour. I literally lived in constant fear of making some stupid mistake that he would respond to irrationally, reactionarily and dump me over. I’m devastated because I have so much hope for him and I know and love the person deep inside. He doesn’t want to be that person though and the person he’s letting himself become doesn’t want me. I don’t want a miserable, insecure, childish, avoidant quitter and coward either. I want the genuine him. If that’s not available to me, I want nothing.
If I had any reason to believe his threats had substance I’d pass them onto authorities. I know they don’t though and I don’t feel his maltreatment of me warrants attempting to ruin his life over. I’m not vindictive or reactionary or irrational. Doing so would only serve to reinforce his paranoia. He’s still got a chance to learn and be a great person and doctor because all the raw materials are there. He just needs to strip away the bullshit.
Damn straight you don’t want his stupid marinerachel! And from the sounds of it you ARE a saint. Get mad! Get so mad! Do whatever you need to put him behind you.
I’m not so sure there’s a good person underneath that’s the real him. As Maya Angelou said; when someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time.
He’s showed you who he is. He’s been manipulative and made threats. He’s abusive. That is who he is. There’s no guarantee there’s a nice person underneath. I think he just displayed a nice façade to draw you in.
Someone who threatens to detain you against your will is simply not a good person. There’s no potential. None. It feels like you’re taking baby steps to realizing that and that’s promising. If you ever need confirmation of that, we’re here to give it you.
Honey,
Tough love here: how do you know he didn’t mean those dreadful, awful things?
Possible answer 1: because he said he didn’t, later, after he calmed down. I call BS against that answer because it means he can be as horrible as he likes, lose his temper as much as he likes, and then everything gets to be okay for him afterwards “because he didn’t mean it”. How convenient for him.
Possible answer 2: because deep down he’s this really nice guy and so clearly he didn’t mean those things he said in anger. I call BS against this answer because he’s a fucking abuser and abusers do this shit.
Honey, you’re excusing his behaviour. This means that you’re prioritising him over you. He’s not worth that. You’re worth more than a billion hims.
Tantrums? What is he, two years old?
Marienrachel, woke up this morning thinking hoorah, it’s Wednesday morning. Here’s hoping you got some sleep overnight and that your appointment goes really well.
@marinerachel:
Yes, I’m in love with the person whose left when you strip away all the bullshit.
The problem is… he won’t leave the bullshit behind. You’ve given him a choice, several times, between you and his bullshit. He’s chosen his bullshit every single time. Maybe it would be best for both of you if you listened to him and respected that choice?
I spent a long time in grad school in love with someone who wasn’t in love with me, and at the time it really did feel like I would never get over it. But ultimately I did, and I know you will too. He doesn’t deserve your love.
Good luck with your appointment!
marinerachel, think of this: even if he wasn’t an abuser – and he is, there’s no question of it – the fact remains he’s chosen to end the relationship. How often do we say here that people have to take NO for an answer, whether it’s about sex or body contact or being in a relationship? He’s opted out, that’s it, end.
But he is an abuser. Everything you’ve told us shows he’s a liar and completely self-centred. I don’t believe for a minute he was Mr Wonderful in his previous relationships: the “he was a father to her” one sounds downright skeevy, as well as impossible from someone who throws tantrums, lies, and treated you like dirt.
You fell for the sweet face abusers are so careful to show their prey; that’s the way it works. It’s no reflection on you. On the contrary, it demonstrates what an untrustworthy piece of shit he is, and how much better off you are without him playing his fucking mind games with you. You’re away from him: you’ve got people looking out for you, and there to start unpicking the knots he’s put into your mind. It’ll take time, it’ll be painful, but you can do it.
As for him – let him be miserable, it’s all he fucking deserves for what he’s done, and since he’s no desire to heal … *shrug*. You’ll eventually get to the point of that phrase: the best revenge is a life well lived. Doesn’t feel like it, I know, but you will. You’ve had strength enough to deal with a heap o’ shit already. Now you’ve got help, you can do it.
I think the funny part was how easily she could ruin his life if so inclined, and that he doesn’t realize, or appreciate, that.
But then, I could’ve done the same to my gaslighting narcissist ex.
Which puts you about three months ahead of where I was after him, marinerachel! And a nicer person, because I seriously considered doing it.
marinerachel, there might be a good man underneath all that BS. But, wow, would you have to move a lot of manure to get there. Thank goodness you’re no longer in charge of mucking out his stable. I’m proud of you for realizing that you deserved better and asking him to grab his own shovel and pitch in. That he wants to live in filth is on him. Even if it is hard for you to watch him wallow when you know he’s capable of cleaning up after himself.
Hope your appointment is going well this morning, and that eating and sleeping have maybe gotten a tiny bit easier.
Hugs if you want them 🙂
There are certain things I won’t accept from him and perhaps in time I’ll be able to but not right now. I refuse to let him go forward maintaining certain beliefs. No, dumping me because I’m not trustworthy was not reasonable. I was always and am to this day honest with him. Completely so. His lack of trust in me was his problem. I’m sure I made mistakes in the relationship that made it more difficult for him to trust me but they were out of ignorance. Ultimately, he didn’t give me a chance because he never cared about me that much. I won’t accept his lie that I wasn’t trustworthy so him chucking me was wise. It’s just an excuse to take the easy way out. That’s his right, of course, but the lie he’s based his decision upon is not something I will hear.
I also won’t accept that he was good to me and I’m just upset with the guy who came before him. Fuck that noise. It’s bullshit. It completely dismisses everything I gave him and all the harm he did. I will hold him responsible. I cant make him take responsibility but I won’t let him make me feel as though I’m at fault. I’m going to keep telling myself that until I’m sufficiently angry that the thought of being in his presence infuriates me.
Another is that I manipulated him into unprotected sex. I didn’t make him do anything. We spoke about it for six months before making it happen at which point I agreed to vaginal contraceptive film or putting on a condom at the tail end or pulling out. He chose to trust me and was right to. Ultimately, the IUD ruined any possibility of me carrying a pregnancy and I never would have been capable of keeping the pregnancy if it had been an option. There was a moment at which point I begged him to agree to let me have it and waive his parental rights so he would stop hurting me and let me have this one thing. I was speaking out of grief and loss though. I would have done the math and concluded doing so was wrong for me and everyone else in the equation.
Maybe in time I’ll be able to accept that he blames me for all kinds of things I’m not responsible for but right now I refuse to hear these excuses. I need to hold him responsible and refuse to let him blame me for his choices. I’m not sure putting the blame where it belongs serves any real purpose beyond unburdening me. Until he’s being honest with himself he won’t accept the validity of anything I say and will just continue in his cycle of abusive behaviour. I feel this is the one last thing I have to do to clear my own conscience though – put the blame back where it belongs and not give him the opportunity to talk back. I will be heard. It won’t stop the hurt. I do think it will give me some relief though.
You’re all right – no means no and he’s done with me. He’s chosen the low road over putting in the hard work to improve himself and make the relationship we had viable and bountiful. He says we can’t be involved romantically. I say we can’t be friends after the harm he’s done and refuses to take responsibility or show remorse for. He’s accepted my position. He does not care. I have to accept his. In time I’ll be glad I’m not with someone who doesn’t want me.
I woke up feeling like complete fucking shit. This is why I didn’t want to go to bed last night – I was experiencing my first breath of emotional relief. I hadn’t stopped hurting – after all I’ve still been wronged in a big way very recently – but I had it in check. He didn’t have control over me. That’s gone now. I’m back to being despondent. Glad I’m seeing the shrink today.
@marinerachel: *hugs*
You’re a smart, mature, kind and trustworthy person. Feeling despondent is normal in the circumstances, even though it sucks, and everyone here understands that you’d rather do anything than go through all these emotions. But right now is the worst you’re going to feel. It’s all up from here.
Good luck with your appointment! I keep my fingers crossed for you, and I hope it will help.
Yeah, definitely a bad morning. I only got four-ish hours sleep. A friend I’m staying with saw that I was awake, crawled into my bed and is now cuddling me so hard I can’t get out. They’re ensuring I get more sleep this way. They know I won’t recover without it.
I don’t want to think about how much worse things would be if I were alone. My friend isn’t taking any of the hurt away. They’re not letting me drown in it though. I’m very fortunate.
Oh my Gosh, cuddling! Try to enjoy it as much as possible.
Also, yay to four hours of sleep! That’s better than yesterday, isn’t it?
I’m glad you have such a good friend IRL, marinerachel.
I’m intrigued in your ex’s insistence that you’re projecting the Ghost of Bad Boyfriend past onto him. That seems to me to be what he’s done to you – insist that his pain was too great to ever trust again, even though you’re a completely different person from his past girlfriends. It doesn’t seem fair. He gets to blame you for his trust issues, but if you have relationship concerns they’re unresolved issues from the past and not his problems.
Yuck. Once again, I’m glad that you’re working so hard on emotionally moving away from that mess of a man. And I’m kind of concerned that this same mess is going to be a doctor :/