Open Thread for Non-Personal Stuff. No Trolls, No MRAs.

Well, don’t really have any of those thread things, except the station’s herb garden that I’m trying desperately not to kill.

The thyme is doing splendid, but the mint’s just about had it.

Katz, love the fixer/feeder idea. I’ m not a feeder, but I have awful fixer leanings. Must fix all things! Ah!

Been working on reining it in since high school, by shoving the must fix things into suitable tasks of fixing and learning to keep my yap shut while people are doing the problem dump.

Fixers are so annoying. Trying not to be a fixer is tough. You have interesting things happening!

I spun up 4 oz of a lovely blue/red varigated roving. Most I’ve ever done in one day. So I have five skeins of yarn on the stick (waiting to be boiled) or will when I get the bulky flyer out and ply that one up. I can spin up 2 oz of a heather and then I’ll have six. I’ve got another half done skein, but that’s some cranky alpaca silk.

I’m almost treading water on the monthly increase in the fiber stash (about 12 oz. a month), since I’ve put 12 oz on the stick in the past week. That means I only have about 16 lbs of roving to spin.

Auntie, I liked your link. Good article.

” The 8 Biggest Lies Men’s Rights Activists Spread About Women
http://www.policymic.com/articles/90131/8-biggest-lies-men-s-rights-activists-spread-about-women ”

Except, toward the end, this was kind of – ugh:

” To be clear, rape is usually not violent. ”

The writer clearly had a lapse of judgment there. All rape is violent. Inherently.

OK, back to scrolling, past *more stuff I never said and people who never read the blog post:*

” for Non-Personal Stuff ”

” to discuss the issues I cover on the blog and anything related to that: Misogyny, MRAs, PUAs, MGTOW, the “Red Pill,” and so on “

Whine, whine, whine. David also stated this is an experiment. Given we’ll talk about whatever we damnwell feel like on this blog, in any thread, and you should be familiar with that from your time here, you’re just showing your arse more every time you make this petty complaint. Grow up, ferchrissakes.

They must be really fun at parties.

I can just imagine. ::shudder::

Tea for Two, I clearly commandeered the thread. I even used a megaphone. Don’t you know that you have to do whatever someone says if they use a megaphone?

News before Tea for Two fills the page with another series of thousand-word posts: I got a partial request from an agent. (This is basically just getting moved to a shorter reject pile but it’s still exciting.)

I am katz’s dancing sock puppet, katz makes me dance, dance.

Whee, katz! Exciting indeed!

Let’s see, other comandeered topics wot upset the SeriusFemnist:

I took Mads out for a walk in the back yard today, first time she’s been out there in a long while (taking her out means her being on a leash; I’d never be able to catch her if she dashed up a tree or over the fence). Went fine for about fifteen minutes, she was pottering around, sniffing things, eating grass, until someone several houses away started some sort of machinery, and Miss Instantly Fuzzy Tail took off at a gallop for the back door, with me in tow.

She has since slept off her terrible fright. Or is in the process of doing so, anyway. We know how long it takes kitties to recover from these things.

I had some clear memories of Home the last couple of days: first time since I finished work. They were only fragments of our day, very clear, but all I can say is they were of the TMI variety. 😉

katz: My sister in law is an agent, looking for clients. Shall I put the two of you in touch?

I had a wonderful discussion of personal autonomy with my six-year-old son the other day. We were watching The Nightmare Before Christmas and he asked why Dr. Finkelstein kept getting mad when Sally ran away. I told him that since he made Sally he felt like he owned her. His response was “but she’s a person and owns her own self!”

I’m a proud momma!

Proud momma indeed!

::applause for amybethwp’s son::

An acquaintance’s 4 year old daughter picked up the phrase “my body, my choice” somewhere and started using it. Smart kid to join the pro-choice movement at such an early age!

Really she just coopted it to attempt to get out of obeying mom but I think it’s a good sign the kernel of the idea is there already.

General question: anyone here done medical reception work? I’m thinking of doing a training course to look for work in that field, preferably not in general practice. Any thoughts/advice?

Not medical reception EXACTLY, Kittehs, but Mac and I worked as a general-purpose paper monkey at a durable medical equipment facility. (AKA: orthopedic shoes for diabetics, athletes, Hansenites, etc.) We did a fair bit of various customer service, medical billing, phone, and health insurance fights. Not quite sure if that’s what you’re looking for though, since we weren’t in an actual doctor’s office.

::joins applause for amybethwp’s son::

*Cheers for WWTH’s daughter too*

The taunts don’t upset me.

Just keep proving my point.

Yep, super fun at parties.

I am not sorry to have missed the grossness that seems to have gone down the past couple days. Also:

Which to me, means, not an endless kaffee klatsch about ourselves. Such as, trading recipes, trading knitting patterns, or diverting blog traffic to publicize one’s book.

*snort* Selling writeathons and commishes on Mammoth kept me in toothpaste and deodorant during the Homeless Year. So far, I think if folks found me an unsufferable self-promoters, they’d damn well tell me to shut up.

Instead, they tell me what they want to read, so I can write it for them. 😀

Tea For Two is just trolling at this point.

Hey, genius: you come to a mockery blog and start being an asshole, you’re going to get mocked, however much you pretend you’re the bestest reallest feminist and all the rest of us aren’t. Assholes be assholes and you don’t get an exemption.

If it’s so dreadful here, why are you staying? Are we the only feminist site on the whole internet?

Oh, I thought they wanted a Hall Monitors badge.

@Tea for Two:

Look, for crying out loud with the vibrant echoing words of a thousand sonar pulses, if you have a topic you wish to talk about – talk about it. Bring it up. Go: “Hey, this is a thing I want to ask about, here’s my so-so, what’s yours?”

At this point you have literally spent more time complaining about other people being off-topic than bringing anything to the topic at hand! That is, for lack of a better word, sort of odd.

Personal stuff is personal stuff, like, oh my god my hair is on fire and my face is full of bees because I slipped and fell into a bee-hive, what do I do?! or possibly my family is doing this thing, are they being abusive? How do I know, what can I do?. Non-personal stuff is: “Hey, I have this book with this thing, and maybe writing about sex workers in a stereotypical way is something I can avoid – how do I do it?”
or possibly “Y’know, it occurs to me that a lot of represenation of female sex workers in movies follows remarkably predictable patterns and sees the sex worker from a fetisizhed outside perspective where she is either some hyper-sexual wonder-gal or a broken doll in need of saving from all those other men’s cruel penises (naturally so she can get with the right one) – is that just odd, and does anyone know any movies where that isn’t the case?”,

or, I don’t fucking know, link to something and go on about it and it what it means to you and chat a bit about that particular thing.

What kind of person goes into a place, takes a look at it, and then starts disparaging the on-going culture without participating in it, constantly slips in snide insinuations of that culture’s complete lack of Real Good Thought Thinking (“coffee-klatch?” Give me a fucking break) without even really participating or doing anything but defending yourself?

Your first fucking comment was made in remarkably poor wording and I have to confess, somewhat poor taste to me, and this was pointed out, and instead of then going “All-right, I can see how you read it that way, but what I actually meant was this” you go “WEll if that’s what you think, just read harder, and also, why are you all being such phelbian philistines as to discuss BOOKS and COFFEE and RECIPES? For-sure, that is a terrible thing that is not in keeping with the stated purpose of this thread! You are polluting this blog with your antics! You are being mean and corrective and LEA is WRONG for having her opinion!”

Look, god-dammit, if we were, and that was the case, and we were not allowed or, or desired to, talk about Katz probably-awesome book ,or pecuniums wedding or Argenti’s fish or Kittehserfs relationship with a king or LBT’s writing or Falconer’s children or Fibinachi’s constant, grating attempts at writing bad poetry or the exact way to make fissible materials be spontaously stable at exceeding high temperatures to create fusion based power or exactly what constitutes quilt-weave or the naturalization of Australian by foreign invasive species, I am very sure that the blog owner would say:

“Look, people. Don’t. Be quiet now”

which David does and has on so many occassions where it was appropriate to the situation at hand.

Either bring something to the table that you are interested in tallking about and feel makes a good conversational opening for this thread about non personal issues as they relate to manosphere, or, for crying out loud, go somewhere else and have your fun

I bid you good-day, SIr or Madame. GOOD DAY.

+1 internets to Fibinachi for appropriate use of “literally”.

+a second internets to Fibinachi just generally.

“Fibinachi’s constant, grating brilliant attempts success at in writing bad hilarious poetry”

FTFY

RE: Fibinachi

Aw, but that might mean Tea For Two would have to stop sulking, and then they can’t be the center of attention anymore!

Seriously, well-said. I’m a writer, but I WISH I could express myself as well as you.

Ok, so this is non-personal kinda, and something I am thrilled about and had to share…

My province just elected the first woman as Premier!! She also happens to be openly gay!! I imagine the MRA contingent in my neck of the woods is… well, less than happy. Perhaps they will move in order to avoid the disaster I am sure they are sure is coming.

I really needed something to restore my faith in humanity, and this helped.

Wait. I apologize. That was NOT your first (“fucking”) comment – it was your third.

The first two were actually recieved with both friendly demeanour and polite feedback. As they should, they were well written and interesting.

Lex-man even tried to continue having a conversation with you about harassment and the stuff that happens in different communities, but you decided to grab your ball and go on with it to play a different game.

Look, Lea just asked you to be respectful of sex workers and you tagged that as “An uproar” and a backlash.

Here:
Said Lea:

Not all sex workers are trafficked and not all sex workers find their work traumatic or something they need to be rescued from. Someone writing about a character who does sex work is not necessarily bent on writing tropes. Please show some respect and consideration for their points of view. There are sex workers who read and comment here.

Uproar?
Backlash?

Said Katz:

I’m not really getting where the “all women in movies are prostitutes” idea is coming from. I was trying to think of the last time I’d seen a sex worker in any medium and I came up with Slave Girl from Saga and I guess Lulu from Slings and Arrows, although she’s a meta character and maybe doesn’t count. Not a particularly predominant occupation from a casual survey. Certainly the vast majority of media I’ve read and watched don’t contain any sex workers at all.

And, importantly, both the ones I mentioned are broken birds; I can really only name a couple of characters from any source that are sex workers who don’t have tragic backstories.

said Tea for Two:

I didn’t expect the backlash for my earlier opinion. Last thing I wanted to do was cause any uproar in here. I didn’t honestly expect the reaction I got for pointing out the dangers to women (or anyone) in the sex industry. I didn’t think it was news to anyone, either. I do think it’s damaging to promote the opposite, that it’s problem free or not dangerous, including emotionally speaking. That’s my opinion. As katz pointed out, we *were* all asked for ours.

Uproar? Backlash? Reaction?

Literally the only one of that I could find (have I gone blind?) was Lea – who, just, well, said: You know, we have people here who are sex workers and what you said can be construed to be pretty disrespectful to them. Maybe not do that, yeah?

Said Tea for Two:

But I feel like my comment was stuffed with straw. I didn’t say most of the things that I’m being directly or indirectly quoted as saying. I didn’t say *all* women in movies were prostitutes. I didn’t say anything bad about sex workers, either; so I wasn’t “condescending” or “patronising” or “disrespectful” in any way shape or form, that I can see. I’m not the first one to be concerned about the risks in the sex trade or of glamorizing it.

The only two persons who respended directly to you was Lea – Katz just clarified her book not being a movie. That’s certainly “quoted as saying” and “Stuffed full of straw”. That… one person responding.

Your reponse though, to that? Those two responses?

I’m really surprised that people don’t notice how often women characters that garner attention or Oscars are some form of sex worker. Well, there are male ones, too. I could post links from google but since you can all find the same pages if you wanted to, I won’t. I don’t want this to derail the entire topic here, anyway. Last thing I expected here were arguments, to be frank. But then I tend to idealize these things that promise safe haven or safe spaces.

But then part of a safe space is also being able to express oneself honestly – but without criticism and backlash. I got part of that at least.

Holy smoly martyr guacamole Batman! Why can’t you all see, you could all find, entire topic derail, last thing I expected was arguments, I tend to idealize promises of safe havens, honest expression…. no criticism… no backlash…

Woah.

Sorry, all that from: “Not all sex workers are trafficked and not all sex workers find their work traumatic or something they need to be rescued from.”

Really?

Very detailed study of sex workers in film, which is interesting – although I don’t see what the point was, and then you were already back to

And I don’t mind if people disagree with me. That wasn’t the point. And I’m a bit bugged that that’s all you got out of my detailed reply. Once again my points are ignored. That’s fine but why make it a point to do so? All you got out of my response which I took time to compile was “there was no uproar here,” and minimizing how I felt.

Which is just mind-boggling.

Look:

Anyway the finger wagging continues. I might as well be on reddit. I never said anything bad about sex workers but, to deny there are risks or costs that go with it, to me is denying reality. To purposely write a character that is sanitized is to me irresponsible.

But you did.

I would like to say something about the “ideas for a movie about a sex worker” in the topic. Can I just say it really bothers me? Haven’t there been enough movies about female prostitutes already? Is there any role a woman can play besides that? How about a movie about the johns, for instance? As for the trope of a happy hooker that’s been done too – see: “The Happy Hooker,” from the 1970s. As for a failed actress becoming a sex worker – see “Girl Six” by Spike Lee. It’s all been done before!

And the idea that a prostitute shouldn’t have any hint of emotional damage from the work, duress, being trafficked or pimped, is just so damaging in my opinion. There are people trying to rescue sex workers and trafficked people, and this just puts a nice PR spin on it that there is no such thing as an unhappy sex worker. I’m cringing.

And people reacted to that.

I didn’t say that all sex workers are damaged. I do think it carries emotional damage with it, including social stigma, distance from family or loved ones, difficulty finding a supportive partner, and then the vulnerability of dealing with strangers with one’s body in that type of intimate way.

“And the idea that a prostitute shouldn’t have any hint of emotional damage from the […]”

“I didn’t say all sex workers are damaged”.

Yes. That’s what that sentence means. You did, ipso fucking facto, say that. Perhaps without meaning to, but you have, so there it is, so here I am, at 5 in the morning because I can’t sleep, going through it.

Once again – I never said anything bad about sex workers. I was trying to promote an idea of a rounded portrayal IF the role were done but also a frustrated plea that there are so many such characters already. And I was talking about film. I don’t know about the same status on book portrayals so I am not talking about katz’ work.

I’m really aghast that you would say “you may not like sex work” – I posted no opinion on it one way or the other. And then you go on to assume I”m going to treat someone badly because of this IMAGINARY bad opinion.

Really guys? This might as well be an MRA forum?

I didn’t mistreat katz either, btw. katz asked for our opinions. Unlike what has been given back – I made a criticism of past portrayals of women on film. NOT of sex workers or sex work. NOT of katz themselves.

No, what you got back was responses to your sometimes problematic phrasing. That was it. Responses that you then decided were an “uproar” and a “backlash” and a “argument”.

And people even apologized for getting you somewhat wrong and for being harsh! Katz and kittehserf both did that! What is going on here?

And pretending that calling this an MRA forum, that we give backlash, that there is an uproar, that this is not a properly safe space, that we are being mean, that this is a clique, that people are mis-representing you or ignoring you is somehow not making personal attacks is just odd too, because it clearly is, you just eschewed the second person pronoun and skipped straight to the minor personal insults.

I mean, goddamn – Katz was nice to a fault. And yet:

Excuse me? You posted another lecture about me personally and then simultaneously expressed surprise why I’m saying that I feel I’m being personally attacked. Cognitive dissonance??

I thought I gave a full and reasoned reply to your posts to me. What I got back just now was solely about me as a person. And how I shouldn’t feel how I’m feeling.

I don’t know how you all normally talk to each other, but what I saw was me being lectured to and then people began laughing and talking about cats and knitting.

Except I didn’t – I answered your question. I got a finger wagged in my face by Lea, when I was saying nothing of the type.

Since you have asked me again for me to answer your original question, and then have said that instead of answering it to begin with I turned it “into a soapbox about the movie industry” (I apologized for not realizing, as I’ve said, for some reason, that it wasn’t a film but a book – guess that apology is already forgotten) and as for a “long dissection” etc., that’s just another pot shot at me. Yeah my posts became long but I’m trying to respond to things in specific so a good amount of that are quotes.

I also feel a bit ganged up on, here. I am surprised this is your post after I had thought you understood I was talking about the art and so forth.

But yeah, since you mention it – when someone says something like “sorry if you don’t like sex work” and then tells me “not to mistreat them” because of that – they ARE putting words in my mouth.

This is “extremely gentle” to you? I’ve been completely dismissed. The actual points have been ignored or twisted to some other thing. You want to talk about a soapbox? Try the very first response to me and those afterward. Simply because someone disagrees with my thought that a HINT of the downside should be included (and I was talking about IN THE WRITING, since that was your question), I’ve been made out as some sort of prude who looks down on sex workers, which isn’t at all the truth. I try to defend myself and get more of the same.

Seriously?

Fucking seriously?

You want to talk about a saopbox?

I quote Lea again:

Not all sex workers are trafficked and not all sex workers find their work traumatic or something they need to be rescued from. Someone writing about a character who does sex work is not necessarily bent on writing tropes. Please show some respect and consideration for their points of view. There are sex workers who read and comment here.

Soapbox? Soapbox?!

And finally:

And as far as I could tell, you were talking about it…but to be really blunt I’m not here to talk about knitting or cats or to help someone else write their book. (For one thing I’m a writer too and I don’t believe in that. I’m even puzzled why a writer is asking for others to pitch in. The fun part is coming up with characters and their backstory, in my opinion. I mean do you really care if I think she should like ice cream or like to play Parcheesi? Are those the things you wanted to know? I have no clue what type of personality she should have because I don’t know your style, story, any of it. And even if I did, YOU should write it.) I wanted to talk about feminist issues. Maybe I am in the wrong place. Or maybe this is a clique that isn’t very welcoming. Or maybe some of both.

Woah.

I… I mean, wow.

Look, I’m a writer too, at least occassionally when I can stop hating myself, and other people pitching in and bouncing off ideas are the greatest fun I have with writing. Seeing how others see things is one of the wonders of the world, to me, personally, and when someone asks a question about something it’s a wonderful chance to think about something that might be interesting or fun or cool or amusing.

You don’t need to care that a dwarven civilzation lives near the ancient husk of an actual god encased in a fragment of a Creation, but if I ask you how infinite flowing water would impact your desert society I’d at least expect an answer because it’s a fascinating question.

That’s why there’s acknowledgement pages in books, you know.

I haven’t made any personal slams so far, but I will now – Tea for Two doesn’t seem interested in talking about anything or anyone but Tea for Two. Let me channel the MRA for a second:

Ahem

I hereby give notice of my withdrawal of my consent to the previous statement of wishing you to particpate in this conversation. I am no longer interested in that eventuality

Fibi: We’re just a bunch of bastard coated bastard people with bastard sauce on the side. And cliquey.

I got carried away.

Thanks guys, though! You are lovely and I appreciate it.

(Also LBT, what. what. whaaaaat. But you word so good-well! Fibi am poor insomniac. Him no good word use speak. Write infinitely much better plus good does the system)
———-

To get back on topic, here’s something I’ve been wondering about:

What is with the PUA’s and their odd duality?

What I mean is this – they’re people apparently dedicated to the art of suave. Yet, whenever they come here, there’s no humor, no grace, no wit, no charm, no art, nothing. They just seem… well sort of creepy, really.

What’s happening there? How come? The internet does not magically sap away charisma, so that can’t be it. If this is the response they get here, it has to be the response they get elsewhere too (if perhaps with less snark), so wouldn’t they quickly realize that they are not being very charming, suave or interesting… yet they don’t?

I don’t get it.

How can you persist in insisting that you are the most charming killer of ladies when people react to you with pitchforks, poetry and puns?

I got carried away.

Beautifully! Well done 🙂

Ew, I didn’t even SEE that line:

I’m even puzzled why a writer is asking for others to pitch in.

Tea For Two, I’m a writer. I wrote forty-two stories last year and I sold over thirty of them. That’s pretty damn good. I ask my audience’s opinion because THEY PAY ME. I want to write what they want to read, because that’s what puts food on my table. This doesn’t mean I’m a bad writer. It means I fucking care about my audience, which any professional wants.

Also, writing doesn’t have to be a solitary pursuit. Admittedly, I take it to an extreme (almost all the writing I sell is SPECIFICALLY based on prompts given by my audience, and voting over which ones get illustrated and ebookified, and talking to my readers about what they want to see) but the whole Lone Artiste sitting alone and pouring out Their Soul without any input from anyone is only one way to be a writer. And frankly, it’s a relatively new invention. The majority of writers throughout history are like me, getting commissioned to write what the commissioner wants to read, thus the elaborate gushing praises in the dedication pages.

Now get off your high horse, I need the meat.

RE: Fibinachi

How can you persist in insisting that you are the most charming killer of ladies when people react to you with pitchforks, poetry and puns?

I’m going to rely on Old Spice Guy here and respond with, “Look at yourself, now look at me, now back at yourself, now back to me. Sadly, you aren’t me. But if you do Game, you can ACT like me. What’s in your hand? Back to me. It’s an HB10! What’s over there? Now back to me. The HB is now DIAMONDS!”

so wouldn’t they quickly realize that they are not being very charming, suave or interesting… yet they don’t?

Not long ago someone, I think Lea, posted a video of a wannabe PUA. He recorded himself hitting on several women at a mall. He struck out every time and eventually got kicked out. All the women he hit on were very obviously uncomfortable and not the slightest bit interested. He still didn’t get it. He was still sure he had game. He required no evidence of his game working to think it was a strategy. People like that just have zero self awareness and zero awareness of others. They seem to have no capacity to listen or read body language and facial expressions.

I don’t even know how people get through life like that.

Wait! Unimaginative! I POSTED UR STORY! Still working on the bonus sketch.

Aw! That was LOVELY. In a weird, achey kind of way. I love the whistle language. Thank you 🙂

Tracy, yay for good news!

Now get off your high horse, I need the meat.

Oh no you don’t! We’ve already had David wanting to eat curried ponies!

I’m not into pouring out my soul either. It’s so hard to stuff back in.

Fibi, btw, has won ALL THE INTERNETS.

RE: Unimaginative

Thanks! It was actually really difficult trying to think of how to make the people different when our own species is so diverse. I finally settled on making it so different peoples took on different specialties; after all, they no longer only have themselves to worry about!

Also, the whistling is based off Silbo Gomero!

Cool! I’d heard there’s a whistling dialect in Greece (with only a couple hundred people fluent in it), but I didn’t know it was anywhere else.

Silbo gomero sounds fascinating! I’d never heard of such a thing.

I admit to having a morbid interest in seeing tea for two’s writing. Diva authors have I known, ones who take the slightest criticism as a more all insult, and what do you know, their finished products read like clumsy, unpromising first drafts because they would rather argue about why their artistic vision is brilliant than revise and improve. But tea for two has that special thing about malicious misinterpretation, so if a reader ever didn’t understand something, she would harangue them for misrepresenting her. So I bet her writing is completely incomprehensible.

@katz, there’s a not uncommon internet phenomenon in which a published author comes across a review that is not gushingly approving (like, maybe a 3-star) and goes on a freaking tear about being BULLIED by the reviewer. Who is clearly illiterate, biased, and unprofessional, and should be eaten by dogs. It’s bizarre, and oddly hypnotic.

A review of that author’s book, I mean. Not any 3-star review.

Unimaginative, OMG, that’s Fanstory all over. What memories that brings back. XD

Neodymium: Assuming she does novels, then yes yes yes. What agency is she with?

…Pecunium.

My autocorrect corrects the word “autocorrect” to”incorrect.” It knows itself well.

That’s bizarre even for autocorrect!

D’you think autocorrect is realted to the blockquote mammoth?

Have you any older pics of the budgies?

No, they’re rather difficult to photograph.

Did you say you’re in Brisbane wewereemergencies? Did you know I do pet photography? Proof -> https://www.flickr.com/photos/kimmau/sets/72157637791967944/ 🙂

If you are in Brisbane, I could try taking some pics of your birds, if you were interested. It would be fun to try anyway, and to meet a fellow mammotheer.

OMG, Kim, your photos are superb!

Katz: I’ll ping you in e-mail.

Kim, your photos are great! Given I’m a broke uni student, (living at home) I probably wouldn’t get photos anytime soon though 🙁 However, if you want to meet up at some point I’d be up for it! Where do you live?

Kittehs guess what! You know how I was having difficulty writing that essay last week? I just went back to edit it and it actually makes sense! I am shocked and incredibly pleased because now I can focus on my other assignment… Actually that isn’t that great, but oh well. Small miracles.

Wheeee! Well done, wewereemergencies. Our writing usually isn’t as sucky as we think at first. 😀

I was thinking similarly about Kim’s gorgeous photos – “Hmm, now if only sister and BiL weren’t on the dole/pension, they could go down to Brisbane and get some awesome photos of Laddie and Pepe.”

Buggrit!