I had an interesting conversation recently with a woman on Twitter who told me that my policy of letting MRAs and misogynists comment here, at least so long as they’re not abusive, was keeping her and others she knew from joining in the conversation; she wanted a place to discuss MRAs where she didn’t have to deal with them.
I know a lot of the regulars here like engaging with the trolls and MRAs who stop by, but I’d like to create some space here for commenters who want to discuss the issues in a Troll- and MRA-free zone.
So I thought I’d try starting a new kind of Open Thread: A No-Troll, No-MRA, No-Misogynist, No-Rape-Apologist, No-Douchebag Thread to discuss the issues I cover on the blog and anything related to that: Misogyny, MRAs, PUAs, MGTOW, the “Red Pill,” and so on. Enjoy!
Oh, and if a troll wanders in, or if someone starts being douchey, ignore them and send me a note. I’ll delete their comments and ban them. No warning, no moderation, straight ban.
That “theme song of your life” page gave me “Joyride” by Roxette. That’s a decent song; both that and the previous week’s #1, “Baby Baby” by Amy Grant, are associated with my abusive biological father leaving (which wasn’t a sad day for me) and the family’s first visit to a theme park in years.
As for harassment, it hasn’t happened to me much, but it has happened. I got teased about my sexuality in high school (apparently someone had decided I was gay and never left me alone about it), and someone grabbed my crotch without asking a few times when I was on a trip in 2000.
Fashion: I’m in my 30s, but I still look and dress like I’m in high school. Solid-colour T-shirts and shorts are my stock in trade.
Ally, I hope that someday soon you will feel comfortable wearing the clothes that you like and that make you feel good about yourself.
Oh yeah, definitely, the goal is for her to be a really awesome, likable person. (Charity work + pets = animal rights activist?) But the difficulty is that I’m veering in the direction of making her preternaturally well-adjusted, so I need some good flaws that are not demeaning or stereotypical.
Would it be too male-fantasy-ish if she was bisexual?
Ooo.. good question, I wasn’t necessarily thinking animal rights activist, more like has a loving heart. Animal rights activist could be really interesting.
Flaws could be a harder one to cover off. Really bad at white lies? Bugs people with Farmville requests? (ha!) Is on a quest to make the perfect souffle but can never get it right (but is otherwise a damn good cook/baker)? Not terribly punctual for social events (like consistently 5 minutes late, but never 30)? Guilt over a parent being in a nursing home and her not looking after them? Is crap at playing barbarians in D&D but awesome as a caster character?
Trying to think of something that’s not a trope.
So looking forward to reading this!
I don’t care about people’s sexual orientations and I’m not male, so I can’t answer your last question. But it wouldn’t discourage me from wanting to read about her, if that’s one subtext to that question.
katz
Just thinking about that qualified person with the whole set of everyday virtues like caring for animals, donating to refuges for homeless people and the background of a reasonable family and working her way through college …
… if you don’t mind a bit of a political/economics slant on it, make her job choice an entirely logical one given the lack of jobs for qualified engineers/ teachers/ researchers in her specialty. I have no idea, none, how to write something like that that doesn’t make her a victim of idiotic economics/ anti-woman job discrimination instead of drugs, horrible family, other social nasties, but a victim nevertheless.
Or you could focus on her being sensible and rational in the way she goes about her life and feed in the social/political/economic background piece by well-spaced piece so that by a certain way through the narrative you’ve got readers thinking about how reasonable and rational it can be for someone like her to work in the industry.
I’m confused, I thought the sex worker was a dude!
Maybe the flaw could be that she’s a recovering Ayn Rand fan 😀
That’s one helluva flaw! :O
I’m 32 and bought a number of singles. I had a Sony cassette player that I got for Christmas and bought Oasis’ Wonderwall single on cassette.
…The souffle thing is finding its way in somehow.
I don’t think she is a student or academic because her girlfriend is one. Her rough backstory is that she came to the city to make it big as a singer/actress/whatever and got a sex work job to pay the bills, but she liked it and so she decided to pursue that career instead. So she is not really a victim of anything, I don’t think.
@Tea for two cheers for replying.
Thinking about it I do a have a little experience myself with some forms of harassment. My actual name is Alexis and when I first started on the internet I did get some abuse while playing on line games, which is part of the reason I go by Lex-Man. People would tell me stuff like go do the cleaning, or washing. Especially if I was winning or losing heavily.
Or she could be a coffee snob. That can be quite annoying. 🙂
@SaltPickles: Hi. A long time ago – like maybe a year, David asked us about our experience with MRA’s and most of us hadn’t had any direct involvement with them.
Now I seem them all over the internet. Sites that allow comments always had sexist commenters, mostly of the old fashioned variety, but I can’t go to any mainstream news or current affairs sites now that don’t have MRA buzzwords and irrationalisms crawling all over the comment sections. Any time there is a news story on the Guardian that even tangentially touches on feminism, gender relations or sexual violence creates a comment thread that is 30% MRA bullshit and the rest people horrified by what they are saying.
Personally, I’m wondering if it can be marked up to free-floating anxiety over the economic malaise. There’s a distinct current of “Everything would be fine if the damned women just went back into the kitchen” in some MRA circles, so I’m wondering if the MRA-brand of sexism is serving as a lightening rod to discharge this fear.
@katz : Hey, so here is a open question: My probable next project has a main character who’s a sex worker. Since they are not very well represented in fiction, what sorts of traits would you like to see in a sex worker character?
You may find this a useful resource (it was compiled before NZ legalised sex work in 2009)
http://www.justice.govt.nz/publications/global-publications/t/the-sex-industry-in-new-zealand-a-literature-review/part-i-the-sex-industry-in-new-zealand
First single – David Cassidy Daydreamer
First LP – ELO Out of the Blue.
Definitely reached the invisible stage myself.
Lex-man, the street harrassment may not be every day but the low-level misogyny is. Every day there are detective programs on TV with the victims always women, the films and TV programs where female roles are always secondary to the male roles (and I can’t imagine how much worse that is for trans women and men who seem always to be portrayed as figures of fun, victims or monsters) there are the articles in the news where men do things and women have things done to them (or merely serve as decor), there is the drip-drip-drip of everyday sexism.
I am privileged – I am white, affluent, cis and het, living in a safe area. But I have been thoroughly trained to think twice about being out by myself after dark. I’ve reached the invisible stage and, as a consequence, have found my fears receding. Imagine that – I am thankful to be conventionally unattractive because it means I am less afraid in everyday life. Every fucking winter evening of my life, coming home from work after dark and having to brace myself to walk from where I park the car to my front door. Having to brace myself to walk the wheeliebin out onto the street each week, in the winter dark. Thinking twice about getting takeaway because it means walking to the takeaway & back in the dark. No longer bigtime scary but still having to give myself a little shake before doing it because it has been so conditioned into me that being out alone in the dark & female is fucking dangerous because of men. In one of the safest places in the world!
Oh, and noone has mentioned the joy (not) of having a workman come into your home to fix things and then make a skeevy comment or act in a skeevy way. In your own damned home. You know why women are always asking for recommendations for a good plumber or electrician or whatever? They’re not just asking for recommendations based on the quality of work.
So no not paralysing terror but low-grade always in the back of the mind caution that will never leave me.
@auggz
Ugh, that is so scary. =( Poor kid. It sounds a lot like how my dad used to treat me when I was younger.
I love summer mornings. It’s so laid back.
There are teens sleeping on the fold out today.
This morning while I was reading, my sleepy, disheveled teen brought me one of the cats. Cats do not understand sleeping in.
The kitty was so happy and purry and wanted to play.
She doesn’t understand why she’s been banished to the room with boring ol’ Mom.
It’s the little things that really tickle me.
Does anyone else here have a cat that will get inside of furniture?
Mine will tear out the lining at the bottom of a chair or couch and go spelunking in the innards. She also likes to tunnel under blankets and couch covers. It ends up looking like Bugs Bunny when he’d dig.
Silly cat. You are not a cartoon rabbit!
Lex-Man: You’re welcome.
Sorry you experienced the harassment/misogyny in the gaming world. It’s all aimed at ‘keeping women in their place’ I think. Maybe some guys ‘shit talk’ each other and don’t see a need not to do it to the female gamers too but somehow, I don’t think that is it. Those are certainly gender-specific insults.
Reading all the stories of harassment and abuse it’s disheartening how often this happens but I really am not surprised. As I said, any time the topic comes up, every woman (in my own experience) has a story. It is very sad.
I don’t know if there is a male equivalent, because men so notoriously don’t talk about these types of things. I don’t mean street harassment, but maybe something else we’re not aware of. I try so hard to be fair, it’s almost a failing. :p But MRAs criticize us by saying we don’t care about males and that isn’t true. It’s just that so many women’s issues are in such state of crisis.
I just saw the article about the two teenage girls in India who were brutalized and hung from a tree. I’m just so sick of this going on and on – it’s like the world doesn’t change. And this happens worldwide, in various forms. I know I am rambling somewhat, and I don’t mean to preach to the choir; it’s just too much sometimes. Apparently a politician there, instead of recognizing something needs to be changed, said it all was an accident?? (Now he denies saying it.)
Someone mentioned repair people coming in. Yes that was always a concern. Same with cars being worked on, it’s either harassment or being ripped off. Not always, of course. But it’s that same feeling of waiting for the other shoe to drop. Just more things men don’t really have to think about. What man has had to fear a strange repair guy coming into his home? Even being ‘hit on’ in that context is scary because – what do you do? You don’t want to piss him off.
I would like to say something about the “ideas for a movie about a sex worker” in the topic. Can I just say it really bothers me? Haven’t there been enough movies about female prostitutes already? Is there any role a woman can play besides that? How about a movie about the johns, for instance? As for the trope of a happy hooker that’s been done too – see: “The Happy Hooker,” from the 1970s. As for a failed actress becoming a sex worker – see “Girl Six” by Spike Lee. It’s all been done before!
And the idea that a prostitute shouldn’t have any hint of emotional damage from the work, duress, being trafficked or pimped, is just so damaging in my opinion. There are people trying to rescue sex workers and trafficked people, and this just puts a nice PR spin on it that there is no such thing as an unhappy sex worker. I’m cringing.
*I meant, the latest article about the two teenage girls in India…I did know about it before today…but this is something that is endemic worldwide.
Tea for Two,
Not all sex workers are trafficked and not all sex workers find their work traumatic or something they need to be rescued from. Someone writing about a character who does sex work is not necessarily bent on writing tropes. Please show some respect and consideration for their points of view. There are sex workers who read and comment here.
Lea, I agree. There is no current cultural image of ‘well-adjusted, socially and psychologically functional sex worker ‘. But then, our current culture doesn’t really support that as a concept.
Yep. I worked (very) briefly at a brothel as a barmaid and most of the women were most strongly affected by social stigma. One lovely young woman really *liked* her job but was very sad she could never be out to her family without being disowned. Drugs were no more of an issue than at most bars.
Not to say it was all sunshine and roses: one woman was very unhappy and felt trapped by the money. The direct manager was an awesome ex-sex worker: the owner was a creep and the intermediate manager was awful. (That is why I didn’t take the full time job, because apparently she was horrible to work for.)
But anyway. Stereotyping all sex workers as abused and needing rescuing doesn’t help anyone, including those who are abused and need help. No one likes being patronised.
@Lea – One of my cats always insisted on being made into the bed any time there was a change of sheets. He would remain still under the blanket for about a minute while questions were asked about what that lump in the bed could possibly be, then burst into the open.
I disagree about there being too many movies (and we were discussing a story, not a movie) about prostitutes. There’s way more movies about being a soldier (normally a marine), or being a cop, and no one ever complains that there’s too many of those.
IMO there’s too many movies with Tom Cruise. Another movie is about to release that I won’t watch because Tom Cruise plays Tom Cruise in every movie.